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ACG files suit against ANA
Newmismatist
Posts: 1,802 ✭✭
An interesting development today - ACG and the Hagers filed a Motion to Amend their Complaint. They are dismissing a number of the originally named Plaintiffs BUT they have added the American Numismatic Association as a Defendat in the Lawsuit. Although they have to get a court Order to amend their Complaint, it will in all probability be granted. Even if the Motion is denied they could proceed and file a separate Complaint against the ANA and any new Defendants. So there is a virtual certainty that the ANA will now be a named Defendant in the ACG lawsuit. In addition to the American Numismatic Association, Reid Goldsborough, and Thomas M. Pilitowski have also now been named as Defendants in the lawsuit.
CAUTION: IF YOU WANT TO POST ON THIS THREAD BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY.
Here's one of the allegations in the proposed Amended Complaint.
<< <i>The Defendants are a federally chartered not-for-profit association that has hundreds of Florida residents as members and individuals sui juris who reside in the United States and, who at all times material hereto, were involved in the rare coin industry as collectors, members and/or governors of the AMERICAN NUMISMATIC ASSOCIATION ("ANA"), were members of an Internet newsgroup and established ANA coin club known as "Rec. Collecting. Coins." ("RCC"), and/or were beholden to competitors of ACG, including but not limited to, Professional Coin Grading Service ("PCGS"), a division of Collectors Universe, a California corporation and/or were members of the Professional Numismatists Guild ("PNG") and/or the Industry Council For Tangible Assets ("ICTA"). The ANA and the individual Defendants entered into an implicit agreement to and each made false and disparaging statements about ACG, ALAN HAGER, and DIANE HAGER via the Internet and in other public venues (which statements were in turn re-published over the Internet) in a manner such that and with the intent that said statements were published in Seminole County, Florida, nationally, and internationally. Additionally, the ANA formed and publicized a "legal defense fund" on behalf of the individual Defendants in furtherance of the goals of the Defendants to disparage and destroy Plaintiffs and has allowed the publication of a false and defamatory open letter in July 2004 issue of its monthly magazine, "The Numismatist". >>
CAUTION: IF YOU WANT TO POST ON THIS THREAD BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY. Here's one of the allegations in the proposed Amended Complaint.
<< <i>The Defendants are a federally chartered not-for-profit association that has hundreds of Florida residents as members and individuals sui juris who reside in the United States and, who at all times material hereto, were involved in the rare coin industry as collectors, members and/or governors of the AMERICAN NUMISMATIC ASSOCIATION ("ANA"), were members of an Internet newsgroup and established ANA coin club known as "Rec. Collecting. Coins." ("RCC"), and/or were beholden to competitors of ACG, including but not limited to, Professional Coin Grading Service ("PCGS"), a division of Collectors Universe, a California corporation and/or were members of the Professional Numismatists Guild ("PNG") and/or the Industry Council For Tangible Assets ("ICTA"). The ANA and the individual Defendants entered into an implicit agreement to and each made false and disparaging statements about ACG, ALAN HAGER, and DIANE HAGER via the Internet and in other public venues (which statements were in turn re-published over the Internet) in a manner such that and with the intent that said statements were published in Seminole County, Florida, nationally, and internationally. Additionally, the ANA formed and publicized a "legal defense fund" on behalf of the individual Defendants in furtherance of the goals of the Defendants to disparage and destroy Plaintiffs and has allowed the publication of a false and defamatory open letter in July 2004 issue of its monthly magazine, "The Numismatist". >>
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
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Comments
This is interesting.....
BTW, ACG is fabulous!
Dave
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
I sure I was not part of that "implicit" agreement.
AMERICAN NUMISMATIC ASSOCIATION,
GARY E. LEWIS,
ROBERT K. BRUCE,
JOHN CALLANDRELLO,
MICHAEL S. FEY,
REID GOLDSBOROUGH,
MARK GREENE,
ALAN HERBERT,
BRUCE HICKMOTT,
DAVID KREAMER,
EDWARD KUSZMAR,
SAMUEL L. MORGAN,
FRED A. MURPHY,
THOMAS M. PILITOWSKI,
BYRON L. REED,
GREGORY ROHAN,
WILLIAM ROSSMAN,
EDWARD ROCHETTE,
IRA STEIN,
BARRY STUPPLER,
ERIC TILLERY, and
DOUGLAS A. WINTER
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
al h.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
Correction: ACG and its lawyers.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Oh, absolutely, counsel can be sued.
Edited: But I'm not expressing any opinion as to whether such a suit would be successful in this instance; was only pointing out the lawyers, in addition to ACG, may be a culpable party.
<< <i>Can you really sue the lawyers that are working for a client? >>
A named Defendant could sue ACG/Hagers lawyers but the likelihood of success is very slim. (actually anyone can sue anyone they want - the real question is: Would the lawsuit survive a Motion for Summary Judgment?)
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Yes, I agree, albeit reluctantly.
Barry (one of the dropped defendants)
<< <i>CAUTION: IF YOU WANT TO POST ON THIS THREAD BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY. >>
oh yea? how about this: alan hagar can bite me.
K S
They can sue your parents for not having you on a leash
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
<< <i>Anybody know if the judge is a coin collector? >>
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
This goes to another thread running...it was early on in my collecting and it was one of those learning lessons.
I wouldn't think of touching your 10 foot pole with my 10 foot pole.
This just in: the ANA Martyr's Brigade is threatening to behead any lawyers who defend ACG!
Can't wait for the outcome.
Bob
Vietnam Vet 1968-1969
<< <i>If I still had the 1911-D $2.5 Indian that I bought that was ACG graded MS62, maybe they would drop the suit. It had a partial hole drilled in it at 12 o'clock. This was my first ACG experience. And my last. >>
I do hope the lawyers aren't knocking on your door as I write this...
In other words...
If I post a message in a car enthusiast forum that I think all Fords Stink, I can be sued for saying it?? If someones asks me for my opinion about a product or service and I basically say that I think that the product or service in question is sub par, then I can be sued??
<< <i>You mean the plaintiffs can sue me and win for calling them twits and their lawyers fools? >>
THey can certainly sue you , winning is separate issue, but if it costs you thousands of dollars to defend yourself and you win, who really won?
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Was it Frattlaw that stated it was not a good idea for the ANA to get involved with this or any other legal actions? >>
Yes I actually did say that, but I don't think the ANA's now involved because of the Defense Fund. Rather since some of the named defendants are Board members I would assume that the ANA was joined as a party defendant based upon a theory that they are liable for the actions of the Board members, in so much that the Board members might have been acting as a agent of the ANA in regards to the allegations made by the Hagers.
Edited: I didn't realize the Amended Complaint was already posted -- I guess they were mad about the Defense Fund
A similiar example would be if someone sued their boss for sexual harassment, the parent company would also be named in the lawsuit, not just the individual that did the harassing.
Joining the ANA really doesn't surprise me. Actually, what I am surprised about is the dismissal of several defendants by Hager's attorneys. This tightens their complaint up a bit and will make it more difficult to get a Summary Judgement Motion through. To me at least it shows that they are doing their homework are are being proactive.
For the most part an Amended Complaint is something that is often done with litigation such as this.
Michael
For the most part an Amended Complaint is something that is often done with litigation such as this.
Michael >>
Michael, more difficult for acg is what you are saying?
Thanx
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Michael, more difficult for acg is what you are saying >>
No -- easier for ACG. Their lawyers anticipated what the defendant's would ask for their Summary Judgement Motion/Motion to Dismiss. Basically ACG's lawyers cleaned up their complaint and decided that they couldn't make a case against certain defendants for whatever reason. So instead of being forced to Amended their Complaint by the Judge, they did it voluntarily.
I'm not saying that ACG now has a strong case, but they have a cleaner Complaint and obviously they have looked at some of the evidence and decided that they couldn't prevail against certain defendants so why bother. So instead, they are probably going to focus more of the discovery on the remaining defendants.
It's not a big deal and is quite routine in lawsuits to join everyone and their brother in the original Complaint and then do some discovery and then amend the Complaint to include only those that you believe you have a case against.
I doubt highly if any of the dismissed defendants could recover attorney's fees though. That's an uphill battle.
Michael
<< <i>
<< <i>Michael, more difficult for acg is what you are saying >>
No -- easier for ACG. Their lawyers anticipated what the defendant's would ask for their Summary Judgement Motion/Motion to Dismiss. Basically ACG's lawyers cleaned up their complaint and decided that they couldn't make a case against certain defendants for whatever reason. So instead of being forced to Amended their Complaint by the Judge, they did it voluntarily.
I'm not saying that ACG now has a strong case, but they have a cleaner Complaint and obviously they have looked at some of the evidence and decided that they couldn't prevail against certain defendants so why bother. So instead, they are probably going to focus more of the discovery on the remaining defendants.
It's not a big deal and is quite routine in lawsuits to join everyone and their brother in the original Complaint and then do some discovery and then amend the Complaint to include only those that you believe you have a case against.
I doubt highly if any of the dismissed defendants could recover attorney's fees though. That's an uphill battle.
Thanks Michael,
Rgrds
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
This is what I would do if I were the defense team, then when I won, I would counter sue ACG and put them out of business if they were found negligent.
That's part of the problem. How do you define the TOP 3 and who gets to define them.
At one time ACG could have been considered one of the TOP 3 dependant upon the definition of TOP.
The point is while there may be market acceptable standards there are no absolutes. For the most part grading is subjective and we will never be able to define MS anything in such perfect terms that we will never ever disagree on the grade of a coin.
Joe.
Joe. >>
There are definitely grading absolutes. There is nothing subjective about the differences between a circ coin and an unc.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I think most of the argument surrounds the MS grades such as one TPG's 66 is another's 63.
But let's take your example. While on the face of it your statement makes perfect sense (and I agree with it) how many threads can you recall here that dealt with coins with friction and/or rub making there way into MS holders (TOP TPG's). In fact, I recall one thread where a board member advocated that AU's with great eye appeal should get MS grades while low end ugly MS coins should not.
Now all of a sudden we don't have an absolute, we get back to market acceptable such as: is cabinet rub wear? do slide marks constitute circulated? etc. Who is going to decide for all of us what is and isn't wear for the purpose of MS grades?
Edit: Look at this current thread MS62 FE?
or this current thread MS Grades
Joe.
I think all the individual named defendants should feel alot better now that the ANA is on their side now so to speak. I bet this whole case gets dropped. ACG, in my opinion, is looking for a cash settlement. I don't think they want to take this to court against the one organization who wrote the laws on coin grading.