MS60-----MS61-----MS62-----????
keets
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Why are these grades, especially MS62, looked upon with such disdain??
Al H.
Al H.
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If the problem is hits, a poor strike, or something that originated in the mint, I don't mind.
However, when the problem is a result of "impaired" luster or some other variable that suggests the coins has been manipulated, I want nothing to do with it.
I like these grades, and in the more expensive type coins this is the way to go for most collectors that must collect on a budget. In the case of a $3 Gold piece an MS 60 price is retail at $2,800 and then you can add $1,000 for every point up to MS 64. Just 3 points over doubles the cost, and that extra $3,000 will buy 4 more MS rarer types.
It is my belief in the current market, and with the growing inflation period we are facing, that these grades will be the biggest movers upward in price during the next few years as the top end MS coins go up beyond the budgets of many collectors. I also think that if there are some higher grades that a collector thinks are a little undervalued he should buy those now.
these grades, for some reason, seem to evoke the type of bias that you expressed in your reply. certainly an MS63 has problems that an MS64 doesn't, an MS65 has problems that an MS66 doesn't, etc.----and then we get to MadMonk's point of view where the grade should go from AU-MS65 or some such notion.
from looking at many holdered coins i've arrived at the thought that i need to pay closer attention to these grades, especially MS61 and MS62 in certain series, simply because collectors avoid them. with the frantic pace as of late, and the emergence of many nice, high grade examples of all types of coins, so many are scrambling for the top pop's and higher grades that lower graded "problem coins" are overlooked like beggers in the streets. many i see only have one real problem-----a lower number on the insert!!!
al h.
Where to get MS60-63 coins?
Goldsaint said
<< <i>It is my belief in the current market, and with the growing inflation period we are facing, that these grades will be the biggest movers upward in price during the next few years as the top end MS coins go up beyond the budgets of many collectors. >>
I wonder if it's possible that, in the future, people will no longer view wear as the no-questions-asked, number-one issue related to value. Maybe people will rather have an AU58 (when it looks like a 63 + rub) instead of a beat-up lackluster MS60 or 61, and prices would adjust accordingly. That could hurt MS60-62 prices.
I know that would require a massive shift in collector thinking, but as prices keep rising, I wouldn't think it impossible for people to prefer a coin with nice eye appeal over a dog, and freely accept a bit of rub.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
The truth. MS62 is usually a very nice uncirculated coin. The buyer is simply having to pay a stiffer than MS60 price to acquire. Usually.
MS60. MS63. MS65. Strictly. Choice. Gem. The "big three" buying numbers, or words, for dealers buying uncirculated coins to sell to their clients.
The "between" numbers, or words, are for the clients. The truth.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
hey Jim
this is a frequent description of many and a response i've noted from you on several occasions. that's OK i guess, but it seems more like a stigma associated with the different grades, sticker shock, than an accurate assessment of what i see in holders. it tends to describe an AU58 as a pristine coin except for some pesky rub and an MS60-62 as a dog that just happens to have luster. not necessarily true in either case. by my way of thinking, there are probably mistakes made by the services on both ends of the spectrum and quite a bit of truth in the holdered grades all around.
quite often i hear members talk of an AU58 that could be an MS62, and vice-versa. as often as not, many MS62's will slip into an MS63 holder and gain respect at the loss of stigma. the same would probably happen just as often if the AU58 (when it looks like a 63 + rub) were seen in an MS62 holder!!!!! that insignificant AU58 rub would be paramount as MS62 rub.
al h.
So does that not mean that there are going to be many more of the rarer types in the MS 60 to MS 62 holders? Each coin should be taken on its own merits, but I can not see why anyone would want an AU when they could have an MS 60 all things being equal.
Usually they are market grades & I agree with Mad Monk. Technically, they should be ugly uncirculated coins. When you cut through the verbiage in the grading books, an MS 63 is how an average uncirculated coin 'should' look for a particular date. If it's not as good as average, it's ugly. The average Seated $ I've seen in MS 62 looks like someone did some ice-skating on it.
I try to avoid coins in these grades because they're ugly. Or, worse, as 291 Fifth implied, they can be sliders in a hard to grade series of coins, like Capped Bust Halves or SLQs.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
MS-63 is the lowest grade for uncirculated coins that starts to really make a collector say "WOW" or "VERY NICE". It is much the same reaction a collector gives to an AU-58. It stems from the technical side of grading. If the coin has had the crap beat out of it, but it never left the Government bag, then it is uncirculated - but it looks like crap.
So, what is a MS-62 (compared to a MS-63)? Answer: One more hit in a prime focal area or a break in luster or just anything to make the grader say "it isn't quite a 63".
So, what is a MS-60? Answer: If the grader holds the coin and deduces no wear, but is blinded by the ugliness of the coin, you have a 60.
So, what is a MS-61? Answer: Same as above, but the blindness is only temporary. There is some quality about the coin that makes rise above the other ugly coins.
I have a few MS-60's, MS-61's, MS-62's, and MS-63's. You can really see the progression in eye appeal as you go from one level to the next.
MS-60
MS-61
MS-62
MS-63
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
<< <i>MS60-----MS61-----MS62-----???? .... Why are these grades, especially MS62, looked upon with such disdain?? >>
could it be becuase too many sliders that are really au-58 sliders end up being graded ms-60...2???
K S
from what i see, not any more than the MS62's that are really MS63's.
al h.
<< <i>Maybe people will rather have an AU58 (when it looks like a 63 + rub) instead of a beat-up lackluster MS60 or 61
hey Jim
this is a frequent description of many and a response i've noted from you on several occasions. that's OK i guess, but it seems more like a stigma associated with the different grades, sticker shock, than an accurate assessment of what i see in holders. it tends to describe an AU58 as a pristine coin except for some pesky rub and an MS60-62 as a dog that just happens to have luster. not necessarily true in either case. by my way of thinking, there are probably mistakes made by the services on both ends of the spectrum and quite a bit of truth in the holdered grades all around.
quite often i hear members talk of an AU58 that could be an MS62, and vice-versa. as often as not, many MS62's will slip into an MS63 holder and gain respect at the loss of stigma. the same would probably happen just as often if the AU58 (when it looks like a 63 + rub) were seen in an MS62 holder!!!!! that insignificant AU58 rub would be paramount as MS62 rub.
al h.
I'd be the first to say that not every 60-62 is a dog and not every 58 is beautiful, and I certainly agree with you that there are plenty of examples on both sides. I suspect that there are 58 coins already selling for more than 60-61 coins... because they found their way into 62 holders, and not by accident! Market grading does that, when the price determines the grade. So on second thought, I'm probably wrong that 58 coins will someday sell for more than MS coins, if market grading keeps putting those "63 with rub" 58's into higher grade holders. That way the "orderly" pricing of higher grades=higher prices can stay intact.
I still am concerned about the buy/sell spread on the 61/62 coins. If you pay (63 price - x%) when buying and get offered (60 price + x%) when selling, that could cost a lot of money.
I think numonebuyer's comments are interesting. Clearly the 60 means a coin which is technically unc but barks at you. Currently those coins sell for more than 58s. I suspect that someday that will change if prices keep rising. Wear may not always necessarily and completely outweigh the combination of luster, strike, surface marks and eye appeal, all of which could be better on a 58 than a 60.
Numonebuyer says a 62 is a just-missed 63. A 61 is marginally better than a 60. Does that leave a big gap between 61 and 62? I also think 61 and 62 grades are used for unc coins which have problems but are desirable enough that they merit a slab over a bodybag.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>Numonebuyer says a 62 is a just-missed 63. A 61 is marginally better than a 60. Does that leave a big gap between 61 and 62? I also think 61 and 62 grades are used for unc coins which have problems but are desirable enough that they merit a slab over a bodybag.
>>
It absolutely leaves a big gap between 61 and 62 if there is a big difference in price between 60 and 63. Sellers of 61s and 62s seem to always lose because the buyers look down on them (sometimes rightfully so, but sometimes not).
Interesting posts thus far. One of the reasons I frequent this forum so much.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
al h.
al h.
When a coin is readily available in MS63 and up, and doesn't cost too much in a grade like 65 or 66, then yes, MS 60 61, and 62 are pretty crappy coins.
But if a coin is rare in ANY grade, MS 62, 61, and 60 are very nice grades indeed!
I'd love to have any pre-1808 US coin in MS 60, 61, or 62, and would not disdain its flaws at all.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
In the bust and seated eras, MS60-62 are just ways of describing cleaned or AU coins. 20 years ago, many of these MS61-62 coins would have been called AU. With typically only 20-50% orig luster left and lots of field friction, how could you call them anything else?
There are probably no draped bust coins in 61-62 holders that are really uncirculated. 90% or more of the later bust halves in these grades aren't unc either, just high end AU's.
roadrunner
So why is this only a MS61?
09/07/2006
From those pix, add a couple of lil "C"s to the back and it becomes:
Both the 60 and 61 = 63
62= 65
63= 66
Because grading is (snicker) not a SCIENCE, but a SUBJECTIVE (heh) thing.
For gold collectors, MS62 is a great grade. There are huge jumps in price 62 to 63 and also you can gind some extremely nice coins in MS62 that rival MS63 quality. For example, check out this 1849 Open Wreatch Gold $1. A $550 PCGS MS62 coin that jumps to $1,500 in MS62. Great luster, no real marks, good strike. What's not to like?
I especially agree with Baley (think it was Baley) the early gold and a lot of the branch mint gold is essentially unavailable in higher grades. It's easy to deal with a few nicks, a little less luster or less strike and take an MS61-62 and have an original, uncirculated coin - if you prefer that to a PQ AU58 (which can be next to impossible to find)
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
I have one 62 the coin has some hairlines on it and has been down graded because of the hairlines. My guess on the dime if the hairlines were not there would be 65 or 66.
I had a second 62. This coin just upgraded to a 63. (I did a thread in the registry.)
I have a few 63 dimes that are not as high quality as the 61 and 62 coins I have, so why are MS60-----MS61-----MS62----- looked at with distain. If you are looking at the coin for the plastic, you're not collecting the coin, you're collecting the plastic.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay