CC Morgans

jmcu12

I know that Morgans, and CC Morgans specifically, in general are really hot. But have prices for these shot even higher in the past few days? I am seeing, at least what I call crazy prices, that are being asked and bid!! on ebay, teletrade, etc.

loanshark

I agree. I'm just glad I need two more to complete my certified set. Started mine about four years ago. Wish I could have known then what I know now. Happy to say that I do have all the CC Morgans in the set.

Loan Shark

ddbird

I havent noticed anything different from the small usual climb, but cc's have been on the rise...i hope you have some nice ones hoared away!

razorface1027

Uhoh...another CC craze is happenin' huh? I got rid of mine during the last craze which was 4 or 5 monthes ago. Still sad that I did!

K6AZ

This is just another cycle, and eventually the bubble will burst. I still need the 89-CC and 93-CC, but there is no way I'm paying what they are going for now.

mrearlygold

There's a LOT of people putting CC dollar sets together especially in the higher grades. I don't think we're anywhere near ( pricewise) where we'll be in a year or two.

Rgrds
Tom

K6AZ

You're right, in a year or two the speculator's bubble will have burst and these coins will be back where they belong considering their populations.

mrearlygold

<< <i>You're right, in a year or two the speculator's bubble will have burst and these coins will be back where they belong considering their populations. >>



Hundreds of people buying these coins is a speculation? Do you mean promotion? Do you know what a promotion is?

Tom

dollardude

I hate it when "outside" speculators come in and try to make a quick buck off of a hot series. I wish they'd stay the hell away and let us collectors enjoy our hobby.

mrearlygold

What's an "outside speculator"?

Tom

dollardude

<< What's an "outside speculator"? >>

Someone who has no interest in something, but gambles money on it anyway in the hopes of turning a quick profit.

mrearlygold

<< <i><< What's an "outside speculator"? >>

Someone who has no interest in something, but gambles money on it anyway in the hopes of turning a quick profit. >>



Oh, those evil money people. I see.

Tom

dollardude

It is not "evil" to invest and make money through sound long-term principles. However, when you do short-term gambling, most of the time you lose. You can't make money overnight with a microwave oven. You have to use a crock pot.

mrearlygold

<< <i>It is not "evil" to invest and make money through sound long-term principles. However, when you do short-term gambling, most of the time you lose. You can't make money overnight with a microwave oven. You have to use a crock pot. >>




Sound long term principles? In your opinion what are sound long term principles?

Tom

dollardude

Okay, I won't go into my usual rant here, as everyone knows I never gamble or do short-term speculation. Yes, a lot of folks here disagree with me, and that's fine, but I'll stick to my good growth stock mutual funds (using dollar-cost averaging) and paid-for real estate. I think a lot of people are gambling on Morgan CC dollars who couldn't care less about coin collecting, and they are about to lose their a$$es. Take it from a guy who has tried it all. This old-fashioned and simple technique works better than anything else, IMO.

K6AZ

Look, I've been a Morgan collector since 1977. I've seen this exact scenario go on with the Carson City Morgans several times. They are able to pull it off because of the vast quantity that survived as struck in the treasury hoard. It's obvious when you compare the current prices to other non-CC dates that have not been subject to the hype, such as the 91-P, 91-O, 92-P and 04-P. Now you are a dealer, and of course you want collectors to buy into the usual hype that we get in the upswing of these cycles, this is different, there is more demand, yada yada yada. Mark my words, the bubble will burst, and when it does everyone who has bought into the hype this time around will be burnt.

mrearlygold

Buy into the usual "hype"? You obviously don't know me, so for you to make a statement like that directed to me personally is not nice and quite ignorant.

Hundreds of people that I am aware of are buying high grade CC dollars. Hundreds. And they are buying short sets.

That's not speculation and it's not "hype" it's the reality of the market.

And I know one of the main "manufacturers" of these and believe me, real pq for the grades in 66 and 67 are NOT available in quantity.

Tom

K6AZ

Now you're twisting this around just like the last time we had this discussion. Every dealer I know of who is selling a lot of CC dollars are hyping them. And it is not just the 66 and 67's that are being pushed beyond reason. $700+ for a MS63 90-CC? $1700+ for a MS63 92-CC? I'm sorry, these prices are just insane considering the populations.

mrearlygold

I'm not twisting anything around. Words mean things and you took a shot at me. I responded.

But now you're being specific and so I will be too. There is no way that 80-85CC dollars in 66 and 67 are overpriced. There. That's my position and I gave my reasons why. I would say that the 78's are not overpriced either.

I do agree that 89CC's in XF ( yeh yeh most of them are in AU plastic) for 5 grand are high. But do you realize how many people want to buy one?

I specialize in coins that are a LOT more rare than these kinds of coins But my view is the short series CC dollars dated 80-85 in 66 and 67 are good buys for the most part.

The market bears that out as well.

Want to make a money bet? I'll bet you a dollar they are higher a year from now.

Tom

mrearlygold

I'm running out of gas. Been up since 6:30 and it's now after midnight. I'll give it another 15 minutes then I'll have to catch you tomorrow if you want to continue this.

You know my position.

Tom

K6AZ

<< <i>I'm not twisting anything around. Words mean things and you took a shot at me. I responded. >>



This is where some of you dealers get into trouble. I disagreed with your opinion, and automatically you turn it personal. I said ALL dealers are hyping them.



<< <i>But now you're being specific and so I will be too. There is no way that 80-85CC dollars in 66 and 67 are overpriced. There. That's my position and I gave my reasons why. I would say that the 78's are not overpriced either.

I do agree that 89CC's in XF ( yeh yeh most of them are in AU plastic) for 5 grand are high. But do you realize how many people want to buy one?

I specialize in coins that are a LOT more rare than these kinds of coins But my view is the short series CC dollars dated 80-85 in 66 and 67 are good buys for the most part.

The market bears that out as well.

Want to make a money bet? I'll bet you a dollar they are higher a year from now.

Tom >>



CC dollars across the board are overpriced, some more than others. And you said one to two years. I absolutely guarantee you that by June of 2006 there will have been a correction in these prices. I can tell you as a collector I am not buying them at their current prices, especially the 89-CC and 93-CC. Eventually the balance is upset, the price increases stall, and people start selling. This is no different than any other boom. It will happen, it is just a matter of time.

numonebuyer

I have a complete PCGS Morgan CC set (at least for the basic PCGS Morgan Set). I would like to upgrade a few of them, but there really are not a lot being offered in the upgrade area right now.

mrearlygold

In 2006. Thanks for the "tip" and also the evaluation on ALL dealers.


I'll make a note of it.

Tom

K6AZ

Every dealer who sends me email sure is hyping them. Show me one who isn't.

mrearlygold

<< <i>Every dealer who sends me email sure is hyping them. Show me one who isn't. >>



Who would send you email? Name names.

Tom

K6AZ

<< <i>Who would send you email? Name names. >>



DLRC for one. I got a large email from them that was nothing but hype over this current boom market. No don't get me wrong, they are a fine dealer and I've done a lot of business with them, but they are just a little heavy on the hype when it comes to this market.

mrearlygold

<< <i>

<< <i>Who would send you email? Name names. >>



DLRC for one. I got a large email from them that was nothing but hype over this current boom market. No don't get me wrong, they are a fine dealer and I've done a lot of business with them, but they are just a little heavy on the hype when it comes to this market. >>




Ok, so DLRC is "every dealer". "Hyping" though.

Whew man, I'm outta here.

Cya

Tom

K6AZ

Do you want me to go through and post the last ten emails I have received from dealers? They are all full of hype.

We can go round and round on this like we did last time, or you can just realize that we will never see things the same way. I am a collector, and have been since I was seven years old. You are a dealer, and hype is part of a dealer's selling technique.

mrearlygold

Good luck Eric

Cya
Tom

stman

K6AZ, I dunno, if the dealers tell me certain coins are "Undervalued" and a good buy, I know they're looking after my best interest. So I'm gonna buy what they say.

K6AZ

Stman, you mean all these years I have been buying what I like instead of buying what dealers told me I ought to be buying have been wasted?

stman

If you like them and they're pretty, that's all that matters. Besides you're just a collector anyway. You got to play with the "Big Boys, and girls" to know what you're doing.

K6AZ

Oh, you mean like since I don't buy millions of dollars worth of coins a year I don't know nuttin'?

BigAl

the 89cc has flat-lined in the past months (as it should, since it's incredibly over-hyped).

However, if your waiting for the "bubble" to burst with respect to the 90, 92, 93, & 79; I'm sorry but you're in for a long wait..........

K6AZ

<< <i>However, if your waiting for the "bubble" to burst with respect to the 90, 92, 93, & 79; I'm sorry but you're in for a long wait.......... >>



Want to bet? All four of those coins are seriously overvalued right now.

BigAl

In reference to above, I would also like to add that K6AZ is totally correct in accusations of dealer hype of better date CC dollars.....and I can give a concrete example of a major CC dollar dealer--easily.

However, I believe hype is ALSO driven by demand (not just demand simply created by hype). Which is what leads me to believe that prices of better date CC dollars (mentioned above) may flat-line but not "burst" in the near future.

BigAl

Want to bet? All four of those coins are seriously overvalued right now.

Sure I'll bet.

I have the June 4th 2004 Graysheet.......let's compare in 1 year and again in 2 years, heck I'll even go 3 years....unless you think the "bubble" will burst outside this timeframe....which if this is the case I would not consider it a "bubble".

Al.

K6AZ

Yeah, but Al, let's take a look at a couple of dates in 64, and I have them both, so this isn't wishfull thinking on my part. Current greysheet on the 91-CC in 64 is 1000/1100. Current greysheet on the 91-P in 64 is 420/460. Now go and compare the populations of those two coins.

Demand? Just take a look at the PCGS registry for an example. Most of the so-called CC sets are actually parts of larger, complete sets in the basic and variety sets. This idea that there are all these mysterious collectors only buying CC Morgans is a load of hogwash in my opinion. Most people are assembling the basic set, so all dates are needed. I'll grant you that there always has been a little more interest in the Carson City Morgans, but where the spread is right now is insane. The prices of these CC coins can not be sustained, and eventually they will burst. The same goes for the 93-S and 94-P, these coins have been driven out of sight considering their populations.

BigAl

Eric, I cannot argue with your above observation-----but I did not include the 91cc in my initial post (for good reason, of which you are well aware and outlined).....Also, I am only speaking of cc dollars.

You are a true Morgan collector, and this may be off the mark, but I sense frustration in your post. Frustration which I myself have felt with regard to collecting CC dollars.

The pops do not seem to justify the crazy prices charged by any dealer.......and every dealer w/better date cc dollars (90, 92, 93, 79) seem to bump their prices almost weekly. I can give you examples of almost 100% price increase in the past 3mo's.

But I truly think prices for the "better" dates (90, 92, 93, 79, especially in PL and DM) will hold and not burst because I believe there is bona fide collector interest in these dates/desig.

Dealer inflation of other dates are quickly debunked on a weekly basis on ebay/teletrade...a la 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 91... where dealer inventory is at a huge % premium.

K6AZ

No Al, no frustration here. I have been a Morgan collector for 27 years, and have been through these cycles before where I stopped buying. As of right now, I am shy ten dates in the high grades that I want. I started out with mostly circulated coins outside the thirty or so common dates, and it has been a long journey to get where I am now. At this point, I am not going to be adding anything more. I've waited out these cycles in the past, and I'll wait this one out. $3000 for a F15 93-S? Not from me.

jshawaii

For all the "collectors" who are reading this thread and agreeing with Kaz6, and are living with thier own unreal ideas about collecting in the new millenium...

- its too bad about the prices, but you had better get used to it! - They aren't going to come down!

The prices may fall, but not because of any bubble. it may take another 911 or a bigger, expanded war - and the chances are very slim that even that would cause prices to drop for long. Kaz, you seem one of the smartest and brightest people that uses this forum, but you are msssing this one big time!

You can't compare anything to the past bubbles - they weren't built and broke on E-Bay and other on-line or worldwide web auction systems. This is the real world now, not limited to a few "in the know" collectors that live by going to local coin dealers and trade shows and trading among themselves.

ITS WORLDWIDE COLLECTING NOW AND MORGAN'S ARE THE CHOICE OF COLLECTORS IN THE WORLD!

You had better jump in with both feet or you're going to miss the boat!
Text

Macqui

I have to agree with jshawaii, there are dmpl morgan collectors all over the world now. With the internet the market has changed dramatically. The nicest CC dollar that I own (the 1885CC pictured in Wayne Miller's Book) came to me via a collector in India-India! It is a different marketplace.


Macqui

GC's DMPLs

K6AZ

Well, if you guys truly believe that then keep on buying. Let's see, eBay has been around since 96, the internet a few years before that. If eBay and the internet are why the prices have shot up, then why did it take nearly ten years? I don't buy it, and I'm waiting it out to finish my set.

Elcontador

I am not a Morgan collector, but for many years, I kept the nicest 3 GSA dollars I got from the Mint's sale in 1980. They are all common dates and nice coins. 2 of them are an 84 & 83 CC in PC 5, the other a PL 84 CC in PC 6.

As you all know, in PC 5, these are not scarce coins by any stretch of the imagination. In April, I sold the PC 5s, as I was amazed that anyone would pay me THAT much for these coins. Coin markets are fairly thin and volatile. I was around in 1979-80, and I was around in 1989-90. To think that this cycle won't repeat itself is to delude oneself.

Personally, I'm waiting for this kind of scenario to repeat before buying my Bust $. I'm in no hurry; it'll happen again. As for the 84 CC in PC 6, that's a keeper for my type set.

razorface1027

I don't buy it, and I'm waiting it out to finish my set.

Now there's the wisest thing I've heard yet.

dollardude

Jshawaii, I already completed my Morgan set before most of the price increases, but I didn't plan it that way. I am just upgrading now. Yes, this is probably the #1 most collected series. But, I have to agree with K6AZ, as I see a short-term correction in the CC market specifically, as I see this being artificially manipulated. If you are even worrying about the market, then that is the wrong thing to worry about unless you're a dealer or an investor. I'm a collector, and don't give a darn what happens, as I do my investing elsewhere. I don't invest in coins, but it just so happens that this particular hobby does attract some "investors." Also, if you're a dealer, I suppose this would matter somewhat, as you wouldn't want to purchase a particular series only to see it drop like a rock. I also will only use a 5X loupe, but many people disagree with me on that too. This is just my opinion from a guy who has a complete set, and it takes a lot of different opinions to make a world.

Sunnywood

Hi Eric,

You are forgetting something about CC dollars. They are far and away the coolest subset of the series. They generate their own demand. Anyone who gets involved in Morgans ends up being totally into the CC's. It's not just hype. And when collectors see rising bids, they jump on the bandwagon.

Now, if you think all these current prices are crazy, consider that I am only looking for the absolutely wildest coolest multi-colored rainbow obverse-toned CC Morgans in PCGS holders with gem+ grades. Try buying THOSE at any kind of reasonale price. Yet I am buying these coins, and I think they are awesome. In the right cases, I have paid considerably more than the prices you are grumping about and dismissing as insane. And I am a fairly experienced collector. Of course as far as I am concerned, white widget Morgans are common pocket change worth not much more than their silver content. But, to each his own !!!! That's what makes it all interesting.

If GSAGUY offered me his wild end-roll toned 1890-CC and 1891-CC Morgans, I would pay prices that would make you sick to your stomach. And if I later had to resell them (not that I would), I don't think I would have a problem.

There is no question that the entire coin market is psycho hot right now compared with the mid-1990's, but as a collector, I am buying this stuff because I love it.

Now if there is one series to avoid right now, it is Indian $2.50. That series has been cornered & hoarded, manipulated, hyped, and completely corrupted. I put together the #3 All-Time Finest PCGS set for about $97,000 a number of years back. I sold it at cost in 2002. Now it's worth well over $200,000, but it doesn't belong to me anymore. Oh well !!! The increase in that series has largely been due to gross market manipulation.

Happy collecting,
Sunnywood

CalGold

I sold off some ordinary GSA's that I had owned for years because I felt the market was too high for ordinary examples.

Look at dealer inventories and auction lots--they are deep in the common dates (82-85) and most have a good number of 80, 81 and 85 as well. Now maybe they are moving this inventory quickly, but there is no apparant shortage of supply, at least not in grades up to 65.

CG

Sunnywood

I think we would all agree that there is no shortage of supply for ordinary Morgans, including the common CC dates. And tkae a look at Dave Bowers' recent Redbook of Morgans. He estimates "field populations" of gem Morgans (i.e. total populations including both certified and the many uncertified coins still out there) to be quite high, in many case 5x or 10x the certified populations. In the case of CC's, there are all those GSA Morgans that have not been certified by the major services. So, yes, there is tremendous supply for ordinary grades and ordinary white coins. BUT, there is also tremendous demand, and there always has been.

And when you start looking at "special" coins, pop-top, great eye appeal, DMPL coins, TRUE rainbow bag-toned examples, and other truly beautifully toned coins (album toning, end-roll toning, etc), the demand far outstrips the supply for the best coins (as in many series).

I do not dispute that there may be some manipulation going on in the CC's, just based on their relentless march upwards in the sheets. But I don't have any factual knowledge of such manipulation beyond the circumstantial evidence ... but I guess it doesn't much matter to me, because for the CC dollars that I want, you can throw away the sheet anyway. I would agree, however, that any new collectors would be well-advised to avoid buying generic white CC dollars in ordinary grades at this time.

Best,
Sunnywood

K6AZ

You know, I have heard all this before. Back in 1989, when common date 65s were pushing $500, and the common date CCs were over $1000. This is different, there is more demand now, etc. No Morgan Dollar is truly rare, and as I have said repeatedly, this cycle will bust sooner or later.

You guys who are into these as "investments" are in for a rude awakening.

Sunnywood

Ditto for the entire rare coin market. I have written in other threads about all the warning signs ... in my family, we have often repeated the adage: "Nothing is ever either as good or as bad as it seems." I find this to be eminently useful advice in every arena. This market is not as good as it seems, and some nasty correction will ensue. But the collector base has really expanded, primarily due to the internet, not the state quarters program. People who collect state quarters don't suddenly start spending $10K for a 93-CC dollar. But for those of us with a more advanced, mature case of numismaniacal fever, the internet brings the obsession to our fingertips nightly. Dealer inventories, post-bourse newps, these message boards, Ebay, live online bidding, browsing of auction catalogs online, etc etc etc ... this is all new, and it is powerful. Beware the hype and the correction, but don't underestimate the sea change.

And CC dollars, hype or no hype, will ALWAYS be extremely cool.

Best,
Sunnywood