OK IKE guys, looks like we have to start all over again. I have e-mailed BJ & David to ASK to have the Peg Leg added and I ask all of you to do the same!
> we ran a poll to see if you would like PCGS to begin recognizing the Peg Leg Eisenhower dollar
Even my vote was YES. The email is very vague. How many dates that we tried to push into varieties registry? Are we only pushing 71-S business struck coins? or we want all other dates in? Did anyone study how many of them are die polished and how many of them are from different dies?
My question is who doesn't want it. Seems like all the top guys are in favor, and no one says publicly they are not in favor.
What gives?
Those not in favor, please state your reasons why. It would certainly not be aded to the basic set, only the varieites set.
MY E-mail to BJ:
BJ,
Help us out with this. All the top Ike guys are in favor, so how do we get this small majority of the lower level registry set participants to agree. Maybe better yet, why do the lower level folks have more clout than the top guys, even when they are in the minority?
Can we have an open posting of each of the top 20 sets opinions?
If it helps, I'll put together another top 20 set out of inventory and bump one of them out.
The email was only about the 1971 S MS coin. I was shocked to hear that the results were only 60/40 in favor. When I asked this forum no one was against it. There was plenty of discussion about the OTHER peg legs but it seemed everyone agreed about the 1971 S MS coin. WHO VOTED AGAINST IT?? Why?
As for the Peg Leg being a die polishing issue or a "True Variety" I do not think there is a definite answer but I do not think it matters. The 3 leg Buffalo is a die polishing problem not a true variety but this has not stopped it from being one of the most famous VARIETIES known! So as far as the discussion about adding it or not goes I do not think this is the relevant question. The question to be asked is, is the difference significant enough to warant being in the Varieties set?
There are many known varieties but many of them can not be identified with the naked eye and for that matter are difficult to recognize with a loop. The Peg Leg is easily identified with the naked eye, has been written about in refrence books and is clearly the second most collected Ike Variety behind the 1972 type 1-2-3 coins. If you do not want to collect it I would sugggest that you stick to the basic set. If you want to collect Ike Varieties then this is an important coin to add to your set. I do not see any other side to this.
> If you do not want to collect it I would sugggest that you stick to the basic set. If you want to collect Ike Varieties then this is an important coin to add to your set. I do not see any other side to this.
We list by name the top 20 varieity set owners. I craft an e-mail and post it here talking about the relavant points discussed in this thread. I'll e-mail it to everyone that has an e-mail posted on thier registry set and ask that they send it to David himself (Per BJ's suggestion).
Once they've done that I'd ask them to post on this thread that they've done it.
The only thing I can think of is that someone who didn't vote was counted as a no.
If I look at the top 9 set holders out of the top 12 sets I know for fact they want the variety. The others I jsut don;t know, so I still don;t see how this could be a 60/40 split.
Any other thoughts on how to get this done?
James
PS We will all benefit from having this variety recognized.
I could see why some people would be against it. Several people have probably hoarded these in anticipation, thus making big profits off of it, if it does go in the registry. Thus most people would have to cough up some exhorbitant sum to get one for their sets. Looks like being held hostage again in the registry sets. If you need one you are going to have to bleed a lot. The rest of us would be spending large amounts of time trying to find one that is slabbable to put in the registry ourselves. So why deal with all the hassle again? Granted it would be fun and exciting to find one, but i spent something like three years off and on to find a slabbable type 2 myself. It's sort of like winning the lottery. I wonder how long it might take to find one of these peg legs? Of course I would probably change my mind if I find a good one myself.
So if you have to hunt for one, what's the issue???
It's kind of like a 37 3 leg or a 55 double die Lincon or even the 69-S double die Lincoln. All included in varieity sets, and in MHO much rarer than the 71-S.
I don;t understand the hostage comment. If this is the case, then how did the type II 72-P make it. I've been looking for 20 years and have never found one. I've paid type II money for each and every one, yet I advocated them being a part of the registry sets.
If this is a neat variety, then why are we letting finances come into paly here. As JC says, just go after the basic set and be done with it.
First off, I'm for decoupling the issue of PCGS recognizing the variety and the variety being required in the variety set. Doing these 2 things at the same time is what led to people getting screwed on the Type 2s. People had no idea on the population of these coins and suddenly they were required. Collectors are trying to make informed decisions on the value of these coins with information only trickling in as a few coins were sent in for attribution. Meanwhile the price was doubling or quadrupling.
If you want the variety recognized, why not start with that. Once populations are stable (a year later?) let the collectors make a decision on whether the variety is significant enough to merit inclusion.
> If this is a neat variety, then why are we letting finances come into paly here. I let finances come into play in every decision I make.
-KHayse ps So anyone have an MS65 they want to sell?
According to "The Authoritative Reference on Eisenhower Dollars" by Wexler, Crawford and Flynn, (Which is one of the earliest and best Eisenhower publications I know of)....on page 72 lists this "Peg Leg" 71-S business strike as a DDO-7 with "doubling seen on IN GOD WE TRUST, the date, and LIBERTY" and comes with pics that make it quite evident that this coin is one of the few DDO (Double Die Obverse) Ikes that can be recognized with the naked eye! (by looking at the base of the R in LIBERTY.) The "Peg-Leg" R is listed as the Obverse die marker.
This Eisenhower Reference Book was published in 1998 and (in my eyes) makes this coin a "recognized" variety. Yes, there are other "Peg Legs", both Proof and business strike, but NONE come even CLOSE to having the rarity or notoriety of the 71-S Business strike "Peg Leg". When this book was published, only 2 had been discovered. After this publication, collectors DID start actively looking for it, it was found that they are actually HARDER to find than the 72-P Type 2 variety AND it was VERY hard to find one in good shape, which added even more to the mistique! According to this "Eisenhower Authoritative Reference"......"It is still a mystery how this variety was created. Very much in demand for the peg leg and doubling." This book is pretty much considered the "Bible" of Ike collectors....and has been around for awhile (since 1998). If you know of a better Eisenhower book.....PLEASE let me know!
I agree with James on comparing it to the three-legged Buffalo.......only, Ikes have not been around as long and were a very short series. If you are not into collecting Ike varieties, then stick to the basic MS Ike set. If some collectors like diving deeper into Ikeland and collecting some well known and tougher-to-find varieties like the 72-P Type 2 and the 71-S business strike "Peg Leg",.....then allow them to do so by recognizing the variety. At least it can be "found" by most anyone with the naked eye.....kinda like the three-legged Buffalo. So, why not recognize and attribute this variety?
<< <i>I could see why some people would be against it. Several people have probably hoarded these in anticipation, thus making big profits off of it, if it does go in the registry. Thus most people would have to cough up some exhorbitant sum to get one for their sets. Looks like being held hostage again in the registry sets. If you need one you are going to have to bleed a lot. >>
I know I'm taking a risk of ruffling a few feathers for saying this but this is the one of the reasons that I am having second thoughts about adding the 71-S to the Variety set. On principle and numismatic legitimacy I intially agreed to and voted FOR the additon of the 71-S "Peg Leg", but then after reading some posts and reading about the "hoarding" going on in the hopes of profiting from the addition I am second guessing my initial agreement on adding it. I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't a little of wagging the dog.
Then, there is also a "peg leg" here, a "Peg leg" there, every where a "Peg Leg" thing that is going on as well. Seems like every date has a "peg leg" that some one is pushing for it's additon as well. Where will it end?
I'm not one of the top guys, Currently #12 in the Variety set, and I hope my input isn't viewed as trying to hold anyone or anything hostage, or sour grapes because i don't happen to be a fortunate owner of a 71-S Peg Leg. I did orginally support the additon, I'm just having second thoughts on this issue and want to hear more views on this issue.
Maybe it's a Panadora's box we don't need to rush into opening?
..................................... edited to add:
Last June, when this issue was first addressed I got an email from BJ saying in essence that there were no plans for PCGS to attribute the 71-S Peg Leg, just recognize the variety. What's the point of recognizing the varitety and not attributing it? Just another question I'd like to have answered
Collecting coins, medals and currency featuring "The Sower"
> after reading some posts and reading about the "hoarding" going on in the hopes of profiting .....
I really doubt how many coins a hoarder can have in his/her hoard ...... After so many years searching, I had to buy one from a forum member..... 71-S business strike Peg Leg is much tougher compared to 72-P type II. quantity-wise and top-quality-wise.
Well written post! I agree with you 100%. The 1971-S Peg Leg should be added to the Varities Set.
As far as the comment of not adding it because some people may be "HOARDING" this coin. SO WHAT!!!! That is sour grapes. Anyone who has spent the time and effort to locate these coins deserve all they may have. If you don't have one and want one,,,,,,,,,, GO LOOK for them. They are out there!
<< <i> As far as the comment of not adding it because some people may be "HOARDING" this coin. SO WHAT!!!! That is sour grapes. >>
I thought people wanted reasons why some may be questioning or against adding the 71-S to the variety registry. Just because someone's reason may not be to your liking doesn't mean it should be treated with disdain. If we can't discuss all the reasons, informed and uninformed, liked and unlikable, reasoned and foolish, rational and irrational as well, without SHOUTING, why even raise the issue? Convince people, don't shout them down because they ask a simple question or take the chance of posting a comment instead of lurking all the time. Geeez.
Just another example to me of a common joe to the hobby, not an insider who flows in all of the secret societies and good ol' boy circles, trying to say something on the forums and being shouted down by the mean girls on the boards. It happens all to frequently on the US Coin forum and the Registry forum has generally been a safe haven from elitist browbeating. Just an observation.
Collecting coins, medals and currency featuring "The Sower"
Good day. According to Alan Hager in his book, copyright 1986 titled:A comprehensive Guide To Eisenhower Dollars in Accugrade "Uncirculated, Prooflikes and Proofs" Mr Hager refers to on page 76,1971-S Variety Silver Type II Wire Strike. Date history: During the last month of 1971 a die pair was prepared with the higher or wire strike of the 1972-S. The type II 1971-S wire strike is 22 times rarer than the regular 1971-S. He also estimates mintage of the type II at 300,000. The coins pictured have the serifless lower portion of the R in liberty. He also states on page 77 "The typical 1971-S type II wire strike is superbly struck twice as the wire rim exhibits itself clearly on the coin. Surfaces range from mirror Prooflike obverse to brilliant reverses" The reference to "A Die pair was prepared" would mean that it was definitly a different die, and should be considered as a variety, dfferent from the more prevelant type 1. I examined the ms-67 "TYPE 1" that resides in my registry set, and compared it to an example of the Type 2 provided by Mr. Gary Hoop, and the difference in strike, color, and lustre is also very different. The type II has more of a prooflike look to it, and is higher relief. It also shows a very "SILVER" look compared to the type 1's brassy yellow. Sorry I took so long to vote, but I wanted to do some research before I cast my vote. Greg Gettleson now votes:
YES ON THE TYPE II "PEGLEG" 1971-S EISENHOWER DOLLAR
Glad to see you changed your mind. Please let D. Hall know this.
Also, I relooked at the coins pictured in Hager's book. They do not all appear to be Type II's to me. Hager was very good at creating varieities where none existed. Examples: 1/2 and 3 hair strand 71-D' and 1 hair strand 72-D's. These were clash marks, not die varieites.
Hager knows nothing about dies and what was done, he was simply hyping his coins. I would also point out several other major erros in his book that give little credibility to most of what he did:
the 72-D Silver planchet. Proven to be a fraud by Walter Breen.
Also look at his relaitive rarity ratings. nowhere near the PCGS pop reports.
the best notation of the Type II 71-s is in the Wexler book, where real die experts have a difficult time determining exactly what caused this variety. As of that writing, I was credited with the finding of the Type II 71-S. Not to be confused with Hager's "wire" strike.
Does anyone have an ACG slab 71-S Type II that you could scan? That would certainly help out!
Mr. Sego. I think you have me confused with another greg. I have always been in favor of the 1971-S type II peg leg variety being added to the registry.
In my opinion Mr. Hagers book seems somewhat misdirected to me as well, but as far as the 71-s wire strike I have to agree with him. The photos of the two different types from his book are attached below. His observations regarding the Type II wire strike in my opinion are very correct. I myself own a 1972-S that would fall very easily into a 1972-S wire strike variety if there was such. The outside rim exhibits the same characteristics of the 1907 St Gaudens Hi-Relief wire rim. I was somewhat confused as to what a wire rim was until I actually had a opportunity to examine a 07 St. Gaudens wire rim recently. It kinda resembles the rim of a soda pop can.
Mr. Sego, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge of the Ike Series, and in no way was the last post an attempt to discredit you in any way. Thank you.
Well, I can see now why no one ever states why they would be against anything now. Lots of pent up hostility out there. I would suggest that the top ten guys all go to Florida and convince DRH to include it at the luncheon.
I will remember to keep my mouth shut and just let you guys fume,rant, rave, and wonder who all those nay sayers are from now on.
I guess I interpretted your comment of "I now vote Yes" to be a change of vote. Sorry for the confusion.
The Pic you should for the type II is the only one that looks like a Type II in Hager's book. I think it's the 64 graded coin. The wire rim is more a die striking characteristic than a different die. I also have many 72-s with a wire/knife like rim. They are nothing special.
With Hager's different pics for the Type II's in different grades looking like different dies, it appears he was creating a variety out of nothing. Just my opinion. As I said, I'm not a die expert, but I know enough to know that Hager has some issues in his book. A great first book on Ikes in any case...and one that got me started.
earlwbollinger; I hope you did not take my statement as being mad at anyone. I am simply pointing out that if the "With Varieties" set is to be sustantially different from the basic set then it should have some varieties in it.
As it stands now there is ONE variety coin in the "With Varieties" Ike set. This simply does not make any sense to me. If you want a "With Varieties" set you should include all the major varieties or just not have a "With Varieties" set. To the best of my knowledge the 1971 S MS Peg Leg is the second most significant variety behind the 1972 T 1-3 coins and IS A SIGNIFICANT VARIETY. If we are not going to include it in this set then why have a "With Variety" set at all?
The SBA$ has one major variety, the 1979 P Wide Rim. There is no "With Varieties" set in SBA$'s this coin is simply included in the basic set. This apears to be a major inconsistincy. I would like to see PCGS have some consistency in the way they handle this issue. Take a look at the Buffalo with variety set. It includes all of the major varieties, it does not skip the 1916 Double Die (because it is too expensive) or the 1914 4 over 3 (because it was recently discovered). All the major varieties are included. That is how a Variety set should be.
If we had used the logic that we should not include a variety because the people pushing for it may have collected many of them we would not have a "With Varieties" Ike set to discuss. I know for a fact that several of the people that started the push to add the 1972 T 1-3 coins also owned several high grade specimens. This is not, and should not, be the issue.
The issue is that we have a "With Varieties" set and we have a major variety (the 1971 S MS Peg Leg). If you want to collect Ike Varieties then this is your next coin. That is all there is to it. We can not just igore the coin!!!
I am not mad, just trying to make my point.
P.S. I own 2 of the 1971 S Peg Leg coins, however I also voted in favor of recognizing the 1972 T 1-3 coins and at the time I did not own a 1972 T2. I went on to pay more for my MS66 1972 T2 than I have for any other coin in my life. No regets!!
I voted yes for the 1971-S Peg Leg Business strike to be included. also, I think from my obversations of the 1971-S peg Leg that it is a completly different die, and not a result from die polishing. The serif was removed to improve metal flow on other dies. However , this die has too many differences that cannot be explained by die polishing. Futhermore, it's at least 20 times more difficult than the 1972-P Type # 2. I have plenty of Type # 2 coins, but only a few Business strike peg legs !!!!
<< <i>Coindog...couldn't agree more with you on the rarity. >>
:
Thank you james. only a few ike collectors have studied this coin, also very few realize just how rare the business strike 1971-S peg leg is. if and when it's included in the registry it's true rarity will become obvious !!!)
Comments
Thanks, GrandAm
Even my vote was YES. The email is very vague. How many dates that we tried to push into varieties registry?
Are we only pushing 71-S business struck coins? or we want all other dates in?
Did anyone study how many of them are die polished and how many of them are from different dies?
What gives?
Those not in favor, please state your reasons why. It would certainly not be aded to the basic set, only the varieites set.
MY E-mail to BJ:
BJ,
Help us out with this. All the top Ike guys are in favor, so how do we get this small majority of the lower level registry set participants to agree. Maybe better yet, why do the lower level folks have more clout than the top guys, even when they are in the minority?
Can we have an open posting of each of the top 20 sets opinions?
If it helps, I'll put together another top 20 set out of inventory and bump one of them out.
Thanks!
James
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
As for the Peg Leg being a die polishing issue or a "True Variety" I do not think there is a definite answer but I do not think it matters. The 3 leg Buffalo is a die polishing problem not a true variety but this has not stopped it from being one of the most famous VARIETIES known! So as far as the discussion about adding it or not goes I do not think this is the relevant question. The question to be asked is, is the difference significant enough to warant being in the Varieties set?
There are many known varieties but many of them can not be identified with the naked eye and for that matter are difficult to recognize with a loop. The Peg Leg is easily identified with the naked eye, has been written about in refrence books and is clearly the second most collected Ike Variety behind the 1972 type 1-2-3 coins. If you do not want to collect it I would sugggest that you stick to the basic set. If you want to collect Ike Varieties then this is an important coin to add to your set. I do not see any other side to this.
Excellent statement
We list by name the top 20 varieity set owners. I craft an e-mail and post it here talking about the relavant points discussed in this thread. I'll e-mail it to everyone that has an e-mail posted on thier registry set and ask that they send it to David himself (Per BJ's suggestion).
Once they've done that I'd ask them to post on this thread that they've done it.
The only thing I can think of is that someone who didn't vote was counted as a no.
If I look at the top 9 set holders out of the top 12 sets I know for fact they want the variety. The others I jsut don;t know, so I still don;t see how this could be a 60/40 split.
Any other thoughts on how to get this done?
James
PS We will all benefit from having this variety recognized.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Several people have probably hoarded these in anticipation, thus making big profits off of it, if it does go in the registry.
Thus most people would have to cough up some exhorbitant sum to get one for their sets.
Looks like being held hostage again in the registry sets. If you need one you are going to have to bleed a lot.
The rest of us would be spending large amounts of time trying to find one that is slabbable to put in the registry ourselves.
So why deal with all the hassle again?
Granted it would be fun and exciting to find one, but i spent something like three years off and on to find a slabbable type 2 myself.
It's sort of like winning the lottery. I wonder how long it might take to find one of these peg legs?
Of course I would probably change my mind if I find a good one myself.
It's kind of like a 37 3 leg or a 55 double die Lincon or even the 69-S double die Lincoln. All included in varieity sets, and in MHO much rarer than the 71-S.
I don;t understand the hostage comment. If this is the case, then how did the type II 72-P make it. I've been looking for 20 years and have never found one. I've paid type II money for each and every one, yet I advocated them being a part of the registry sets.
If this is a neat variety, then why are we letting finances come into paly here. As JC says, just go after the basic set and be done with it.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Doing these 2 things at the same time is what led to people getting screwed on the Type 2s. People had no idea on
the population of these coins and suddenly they were required. Collectors are trying to make informed decisions on the
value of these coins with information only trickling in as a few coins were sent in for attribution. Meanwhile the price was
doubling or quadrupling.
If you want the variety recognized, why not start with that. Once populations are stable (a year later?) let the collectors make
a decision on whether the variety is significant enough to merit inclusion.
> If this is a neat variety, then why are we letting finances come into paly here.
I let finances come into play in every decision I make.
-KHayse
ps So anyone have an MS65 they want to sell?
(Which is one of the earliest and best Eisenhower publications I know of)....on page 72 lists this
"Peg Leg" 71-S business strike as a DDO-7 with "doubling seen on IN GOD WE TRUST, the date,
and LIBERTY" and comes with pics that make it quite evident that this coin is one of the few DDO
(Double Die Obverse) Ikes that can be recognized with the naked eye! (by looking at the base of the R in LIBERTY.) The "Peg-Leg" R is listed as the Obverse die marker.
This Eisenhower Reference Book was published in 1998 and (in my eyes) makes this coin a "recognized"
variety. Yes, there are other "Peg Legs", both Proof and business strike, but NONE come even CLOSE
to having the rarity or notoriety of the 71-S Business strike "Peg Leg". When this book was published,
only 2 had been discovered. After this publication, collectors DID start actively looking for it, it was found that they are actually HARDER to find than the 72-P Type 2 variety AND it was VERY hard to find one in good shape, which
added even more to the mistique!
According to this "Eisenhower Authoritative Reference"......"It is still a mystery how this variety was created.
Very much in demand for the peg leg and doubling."
This book is pretty much considered the "Bible" of Ike collectors....and has been around for awhile (since 1998).
If you know of a better Eisenhower book.....PLEASE let me know!
I agree with James on comparing it to the three-legged Buffalo.......only, Ikes have not been around
as long and were a very short series. If you are not into collecting Ike varieties, then stick to the basic MS Ike set.
If some collectors like diving deeper into Ikeland and collecting some well known and tougher-to-find varieties like
the 72-P Type 2 and the 71-S business strike "Peg Leg",.....then allow them to do so by recognizing the variety.
At least it can be "found" by most anyone with the naked eye.....kinda like the three-legged Buffalo. So, why not
recognize and attribute this variety?
JMHO,
Brian
<< <i>I could see why some people would be against it.
Several people have probably hoarded these in anticipation, thus making big profits off of it, if it does go in the registry.
Thus most people would have to cough up some exhorbitant sum to get one for their sets.
Looks like being held hostage again in the registry sets. If you need one you are going to have to bleed a lot.
>>
I know I'm taking a risk of ruffling a few feathers for saying this but this is the one of the reasons that I am having second thoughts about adding the 71-S to the Variety set. On principle and numismatic legitimacy I intially agreed to and voted FOR the additon of the 71-S "Peg Leg", but then after reading some posts and reading about the "hoarding" going on in the hopes of profiting from the addition I am second guessing my initial agreement on adding it. I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't a little of wagging the dog.
Then, there is also a "peg leg" here, a "Peg leg" there, every where a "Peg Leg" thing that is going on as well. Seems like every date has a "peg leg" that some one is pushing for it's additon as well. Where will it end?
I'm not one of the top guys, Currently #12 in the Variety set, and I hope my input isn't viewed as trying to hold anyone or anything hostage, or sour grapes because i don't happen to be a fortunate owner of a 71-S Peg Leg. I did orginally support the additon, I'm just having second thoughts on this issue and want to hear more views on this issue.
Maybe it's a Panadora's box we don't need to rush into opening?
.....................................
edited to add:
Last June, when this issue was first addressed I got an email from BJ saying in essence that there were no plans for PCGS to attribute the 71-S Peg Leg, just recognize the variety. What's the point of recognizing the varitety and not attributing it? Just another question I'd like to have answered
I really doubt how many coins a hoarder can have in his/her hoard ...... After so many years searching, I had to buy one from a forum member.....
71-S business strike Peg Leg is much tougher compared to 72-P type II. quantity-wise and top-quality-wise.
Well written post! I agree with you 100%. The 1971-S Peg Leg should be added to the Varities Set.
As far as the comment of not adding it because some people may be "HOARDING" this coin. SO WHAT!!!! That is sour grapes. Anyone who has spent the time and effort to locate these coins deserve all they may have. If you don't have one and want one,,,,,,,,,, GO LOOK for them. They are out there!
The 1971-S Peg Leg BELONGS in the Variety Set.
JMHO, GrandAm
<< <i>
As far as the comment of not adding it because some people may be "HOARDING" this coin. SO WHAT!!!! That is sour grapes. >>
I thought people wanted reasons why some may be questioning or against adding the 71-S to the variety registry. Just because someone's reason may not be to your liking doesn't mean it should be treated with disdain. If we can't discuss all the reasons, informed and uninformed, liked and unlikable, reasoned and foolish, rational and irrational as well, without SHOUTING, why even raise the issue? Convince people, don't shout them down because they ask a simple question or take the chance of posting a comment instead of lurking all the time. Geeez.
Just another example to me of a common joe to the hobby, not an insider who flows in all of the secret societies and good ol' boy circles, trying to say something on the forums and being shouted down by the mean girls on the boards. It happens all to frequently on the US Coin forum and the Registry forum has generally been a safe haven from elitist browbeating. Just an observation.
YES ON THE TYPE II "PEGLEG" 1971-S EISENHOWER DOLLAR
Glad to see you changed your mind. Please let D. Hall know this.
Also, I relooked at the coins pictured in Hager's book. They do not all appear to be Type II's to me. Hager was very good at creating varieities where none existed. Examples: 1/2 and 3 hair strand 71-D' and 1 hair strand 72-D's. These were clash marks, not die varieites.
Hager knows nothing about dies and what was done, he was simply hyping his coins. I would also point out several other major erros in his book that give little credibility to most of what he did:
the 72-D Silver planchet. Proven to be a fraud by Walter Breen.
Also look at his relaitive rarity ratings. nowhere near the PCGS pop reports.
the best notation of the Type II 71-s is in the Wexler book, where real die experts have a difficult time determining exactly what caused this variety. As of that writing, I was credited with the finding of the Type II 71-S. Not to be confused with Hager's "wire" strike.
Does anyone have an ACG slab 71-S Type II that you could scan? That would certainly help out!
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Brian
In my opinion Mr. Hagers book seems somewhat misdirected to me as well, but as far as the 71-s wire strike I have to agree with him. The photos of the two different types from his book are attached below. His observations regarding the Type II wire strike in my opinion are very correct. I myself own a 1972-S that would fall very easily into a 1972-S wire strike variety if there was such. The outside rim exhibits the same characteristics of the 1907 St Gaudens Hi-Relief wire rim. I was somewhat confused as to what a wire rim was until I actually had a opportunity to examine a 07 St. Gaudens wire rim recently. It kinda resembles the rim of a soda pop can.
Mr. Sego, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge of the Ike Series, and in no way was the last post an attempt to discredit you in any way. Thank you.
Lots of pent up hostility out there.
I would suggest that the top ten guys all go to Florida and convince DRH to include it at the luncheon.
I will remember to keep my mouth shut and just let you guys fume,rant, rave, and wonder who all those nay sayers are from now on.
My apologies for pissing you all off.
I guess I interpretted your comment of "I now vote Yes" to be a change of vote. Sorry for the confusion.
The Pic you should for the type II is the only one that looks like a Type II in Hager's book. I think it's the 64 graded coin. The wire rim is more a die striking characteristic than a different die. I also have many 72-s with a wire/knife like rim. They are nothing special.
With Hager's different pics for the Type II's in different grades looking like different dies, it appears he was creating a variety out of nothing. Just my opinion. As I said, I'm not a die expert, but I know enough to know that Hager has some issues in his book. A great first book on Ikes in any case...and one that got me started.
James
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
As it stands now there is ONE variety coin in the "With Varieties" Ike set. This simply does not make any sense to me. If you want a "With Varieties" set you should include all the major varieties or just not have a "With Varieties" set. To the best of my knowledge the 1971 S MS Peg Leg is the second most significant variety behind the 1972 T 1-3 coins and IS A SIGNIFICANT VARIETY. If we are not going to include it in this set then why have a "With Variety" set at all?
The SBA$ has one major variety, the 1979 P Wide Rim. There is no "With Varieties" set in SBA$'s this coin is simply included in the basic set. This apears to be a major inconsistincy. I would like to see PCGS have some consistency in the way they handle this issue. Take a look at the Buffalo with variety set. It includes all of the major varieties, it does not skip the 1916 Double Die (because it is too expensive) or the 1914 4 over 3 (because it was recently discovered). All the major varieties are included. That is how a Variety set should be.
If we had used the logic that we should not include a variety because the people pushing for it may have collected many of them we would not have a "With Varieties" Ike set to discuss. I know for a fact that several of the people that started the push to add the 1972 T 1-3 coins also owned several high grade specimens. This is not, and should not, be the issue.
The issue is that we have a "With Varieties" set and we have a major variety (the 1971 S MS Peg Leg). If you want to collect Ike Varieties then this is your next coin. That is all there is to it. We can not just igore the coin!!!
I am not mad, just trying to make my point.
P.S. I own 2 of the 1971 S Peg Leg coins, however I also voted in favor of recognizing the 1972 T 1-3 coins and at the time I did not own a 1972 T2. I went on to pay more for my MS66 1972 T2 than I have for any other coin in my life. No regets!!
also, I think from my obversations of the 1971-S peg Leg that it is a completly different die, and not a result from die polishing. The serif was removed to improve metal flow on other dies.
However , this die has too many differences that cannot be explained by die polishing.
Futhermore, it's at least 20 times more difficult than the 1972-P Type # 2. I have plenty of Type # 2 coins, but only a few Business strike peg legs !!!!
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>Coindog...couldn't agree more with you on the rarity. >>
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Thank you james. only a few ike collectors have studied this coin, also very few realize just how rare the business strike 1971-S peg leg is. if and when it's included in the registry it's true rarity will become obvious !!!)