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Does anybody really believe ?

100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Do you really believe that a PCGS slabbed coin is really worth 4-8 times what an NGC coin is worth ?
I think when you get into higher grade material like PR68 that the grading is very similar.
I have some proof 68 NGC coins and they are beautiful,cant think that PCGS would regrade them 2-4 points lower !
Having said that,were it PCI,NTC,SGS,SEGS,AGS, i would understand it.
IE: Proof 68 CAM PCI comes back from PCGS Proof 65 no cam.
Back in the 80's and the ANE, PCGS and NGC traded interchangably for the same price.
I would say this is all market "Perception" and a load of crap

Proof
image

Comments

  • razorface1027razorface1027 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭
    I believe it all matters who submitted it. JMHOimage
    What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Do you really believe that a PCGS slabbed coin is really worth 4-8 times what an NGC coin is worth ? >>



    Other than PR70DCAM moderns, I can't think of any examples of coins even approaching that kind of price multiple difference for the same grade.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • razorface1027razorface1027 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭
    Wow, Russ reaches an even 22,000...any giveaways Russ?image
    What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Russ,
    1957 proof 68 Cam jefferson,paid 311.00,PCGS price guide 2200.00 ?
    1957 proof 68 Cam roosie ,paid 34.00,PCGS price guide 240.00
    Darn close to 8 times !

    Proof
    image
  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    You are forgetting one major thing: The price guide is wrong and a price guide is not the same thing as an actual sale!

    Cameron Kiefer
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You are forgetting one major thing: The price guide is wrong and a price guide is not the same thing as an actual sale!

    Cameron Kiefer >>



    ditto.....
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • AgflyerAgflyer Posts: 948 ✭✭✭
    Other than PR70DCAM moderns, I can't think of any examples of coins even approaching that kind of price multiple difference for the same grade

    How about this one?. A PCGS graded version recently sold for over $1000. I'm not holding my breath that it will cross at PCGS, but I am hoping that it will be a superior PCGS MS67 image
    I've had great transactions with people like: drwstr123, CCC2010, AlanLastufka, Type2, Justlooking, zas107, StrikeOutXXX, 10point, 66Tbird, and many more!
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Cam,
    i fully understand your point.
    if you take 50% of the price guide,those 2 coins are still 4x price !

    Proof
    image
  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    You don't get the point. 50% of a price guide from 3 years ago can still be wrong!

    Cameron Kiefer
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Thats the point !
    that Jeff is still 6 x the sale price of the NGC !

    Proof
    image
  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    We already know the price guide is wrong.

    You should have just said: "Do you really believe that a PCGS slabbed coin (per PCGS's price guide) is really worth 4-8 times what an NGC coin is worth?" and not:



    << <i>Do you really believe that a PCGS slabbed coin is really worth 4-8 times what an NGC coin is worth ? >>



    Cameron Kiefer
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Cam,
    i thought the PCGS price guide was updated daily ?
    even though it never changes !
    image
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Well i guess i should just take my NGC Proof 68 Cams and send em to HRH and octuple my money !

    Proof
    image
  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    It hasn't ben updated in years in some parts. David Hall said they are working on updating prices sarting with the morgans but it hasn't appeared yet. This whole thread is worthless because we agree it isn't worth 6 times and the price guide it ISN'T updated!

    Cameron Kiefer
  • razorface1027razorface1027 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭
    This whole thread is worthless because we agree it isn't worth 6 times and the price guide it ISN'T updated!

    Well now, I wouldn't say it's worthless...It received several responses.image
    What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Agflyer,

    There are some isolated examples such as yours, in particular among SMS coins at this particular moment in time. The market is on fire for the top grades in PCGS holders. Last year you would not have seen that kind of spread. This, of course, creates some nice opportunities for holder arbitrage in the SMS stuff - if one hunts carefully.

    100proof1957,

    PCGS price guide? image

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Would Lucy sell me a 57 Proof 68 Cam in an NGC holder for 40-100 bucks ?
    aint likely ! (i would take a thousand of them at those prices)

    Proof
    image
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Would Lucy sell me a 57 Proof 68 Cam in an NGC holder for 40-100 bucks ?
    aint likely ! (i would take a thousand of them at those prices)

    Proof >>



    huh? and this statement is proof of what?
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Russ gets the prize for the 5 dollar word DU Jour !
    Arbitrage.
    Define it and no fair looking in the Webster !
    image
  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    Proof is trying to prove the price guide is outdated. WE ALREADY KNOW THAT and have told him several times but he keeps going on about it.

    Cameron Kiefer
  • razorface1027razorface1027 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭
    PCGS price guide can't even lend balance to actuaL RECOGNIZED PRICES.
    What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
  • AgflyerAgflyer Posts: 948 ✭✭✭
    The market is on fire for the top grades in PCGS holders. Last year you would not have seen that kind of spread.

    Man, I knew I should have started collecting SMS's sooner. . . I'm going to be lucky to just finish up my 1967 set!
    I've had great transactions with people like: drwstr123, CCC2010, AlanLastufka, Type2, Justlooking, zas107, StrikeOutXXX, 10point, 66Tbird, and many more!
  • fcloudfcloud Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭
    I would think the best place to compare would be Heritage's realized prices (Permenant Auction Archives). Take a look at any specific date and you should find both PCGS and NGC graded the same and compare the real sales.

    President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay

  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Man, I knew I should have started collecting SMS's sooner. . . >>



    You and me both. If I'd have seen this coming, I'd have grabbed every high grade PCGS example I could get my hands on last year. Many have literally doubled just in the last six months. Mind you, I'm talking about the pop tops and deep cameos. The lower grades and cameos haven't moved much.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Yeah Yeah i know.
    But even at realized prices do you think that PCGS slabs are worth double what NGC slabs are ?
    Sure i been drinking,but im still rtatiosnila !

    200 Proof
    image
  • Catch22Catch22 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭
    I'm still not buying into the notion that a MS-68 coin deserves multiple thousands of dollars over a 67. Same can be said for other small numerical differences.


    When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.

    Thomas Paine
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Well i guess i should just take my NGC Proof 68 Cams and send em to HRH and octuple my money !

    Proof >>



    Go for it image

  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    I think thats a good plan !

    Proof
    image
  • jeffnpcbjeffnpcb Posts: 1,943 ✭
    The best thing is PCGS drop their guide as well as Coin World! They can't keep in time with the constant change and too many butt wipes use it to boast their sales pitch!
    The PCGS guide is a farce 99% of the time. Very few and rare high grades meet the expectations. The best thing is totally disregard the guides, spend big bucks, more than your collections, and spend your life 24 hours a day following sales, auctions and news reports.




    Self- defeting ,isn't it?!
    HEAD TUCKED AND ROLLING ALONG ENJOYING THE VIEW! [Most people I know!]

    NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!

    WORK HARDER!!!!
    Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
  • nOoBiEeEnOoBiEeE Posts: 1,011 ✭✭
    Proof,
    First, listen to what the people on this board are saying to you, absorb it then re-evaluate what you have learned. image
    Wanna See Some True Rainbow Toned Jeffferson Nickels??
    image
  • CratonCraton Posts: 2,670


    << <i>

    << <i>You are forgetting one major thing: The price guide is wrong and a price guide is not the same thing as an actual sale!

    Cameron Kiefer >>



    ditto..... >>



    Ditto to that ditto.....
  • Conder101Conder101 Posts: 10,536 ✭


    << <i>Arbitrage.
    Define it and no fair looking in the Webster ! >>


    The pratice of making money by buying a product or commodity in a location where the price is low and selling it in another location where the price is higher.
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Very good Condor !

    AKA: Slam Dunk
    image
  • TUMUSSTUMUSS Posts: 2,207 ✭
    QUITE SIMPLY......NO!
  • CarlWohlforthCarlWohlforth Posts: 11,074 ✭
    1957 proof Jeffersons are very scarce with strong frost on the devices and deep mirror like fields. People will pay a lot to have the finest coin. There are not all that many proof Jefferson collectors so the next tier of coin is worth 4-10 times less than the finest knowns.

    I have a near full set of 1950s NGC PR 67-68 Cameo Jeffersons and I still have them. Almost all my PCGS PR 68 Cameos have been sold at 4-10 times what I want for the NGC coins. The NGC coins I have would never cross at the same grade, some might cross at a grade lower, many might cross without the cameo designation.
    Carl's Coins website w/ links to Carl's auctions
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    I think what i am going to do is take the 4 proofs that i have (minus the cent at this point) and try to cross em.
    when i get ready,i will take the best photos i can of the NGC coins and then post the PCGS photos.
    Then we can play GUESS THAT GRADE !

    Proof
    image
  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭


    << <i>I think what i am going to do is take the 4 proofs that i have (minus the cent at this point) and try to cross em. when i get ready,i will take the best photos i can of the NGC coins and then post the PCGS photos.
    Then we can play GUESS THAT GRADE ! >>



    So did they cross?

    If these have a shot at CAM why didn't you send them in?

    Cameron Kiefer
  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293 ✭
    In Silver Washington's, PCGS is very strict on marks whereas NGC seems to favor luster. At the 66-67 crossover, there really is a difference in the grading standards, although "different" doesn't mean better IMO. Never-the-less, there is a 2X to 4X price spread at 67 at auction, and the difference is very real in the coins themselves, as a GENERAL rule.
    morgannut2
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Thread from the dead !

    Man have learned a bunch from you fine people in 6 months !

    The PCGS price guide is virtually useless !

    Just bought an NGC PR69CAM Roosie for 65 Bucks on TT,thats about a dime on the dollar according to the guide.

    Cam,
    We shall see how the cross over turns out,didnt have the nads to crack em out.
    These were recd on 11/16
    Linky PR67CAM
    Jeff PR68CAM
    Roosie PR68*CAM
    Washy PR68CAM
    Frankie PR68CAM

    Should see em about 2/10/05 i reckon

    I should add that they were sent in for grade of 67 CAM Minimum,so i wasnt i total Kitty about it !

    The NTC coins ? I didnt want to waste the money on an outside chance they would go CAM.

    I have looked at enough pre 64 Jeffs to know that they just dont frost up like the silver coins and if it looks like a CAM its likely a DCAM,just a tough coin to CAM prior to about 1968 !

    Proof
    image
  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    Cool! Please let us know the grades when you get themimage

    Cameron Kiefer
  • LouisLouis Posts: 3,687
    A good example of skin thickening. image
    image

    image
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    The set is actually pretty nice !

    I just got out check-booked !

    Link O Rama
    image
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Back to the original question: In instances where crazy multiples of 20-100 times the undergrade are being paid for one grade bumps, then absolutely a PCGS holder could be worth 4-8 times an NGC holder. After all, the holder is the biggest and most visual difference between the coin in question and the undergrade, so if you're gonna spend all that money why not get exactly what you want? image

    Next question? image
    Early Dollar Set
  • MadMonkMadMonk Posts: 3,743 ✭
    Years ago, I could easily cross nice PCGS -64 franklins to NGC 65's. Those days are done!image
    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    Monk,

    Thats my point !
    image
  • MadMonkMadMonk Posts: 3,743 ✭


    << <i>Monk,

    Thats my point ! >>



    Yes, a good point...but they seem to be closer these days. For the worse in my opinion.
    When SEGS first opened their doors, I saw a nice handful of Franklins (My Specialty) that were way too strict.
    I did well on those. There was also a period of time when PCI was undergrading Gold, and if you looked around, you could get some really nice gold on the cheap.
    My OLD NGC slabs all crossed to PCGS with no problem years ago as wel as getting the FBL added. One also upgraded in that batch.
    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
  • 100proof1957100proof1957 Posts: 6,231 ✭
    I think my 68's will cross at the same grade

    My 67 cam linky is a question mark !

    i have a 66 cam OGH that may upgrade.

    68 CAM thats veery nice and should cross easy

    65 CAM trugrade,crackout that might go 68.

    image

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