Roadrunner, I think you and I at least are on the same sheet of music here. I also missed all this modern market, I did collect many modern coins but all raw, so I have no idea what they will come out like in slabs. I also missed all the modern error coins, man some of these I still never knew existed. We seem to talk about this upward market every few weeks here, and most are amazed as the prices keep going, but it seems to me that one thing to watch closely is the big auctions. One of these days, and that day may be a long time off, Heritage or one of the other houses is going to have an auction and half of the reserves just won’t get met. When that happens the end is near. More and more the bulk of collectors are being left behind so the number of bidders continually gets smaller. When we start having down auctions the dealer community as a whole will start to unload and we will have a very interesting market for several months. In the late 70’s there was no bank credit for most dealers. Today with hundreds of lenders shoving credit at everyone there has to be lots of dealers that are leveraged with their inventories. I don’t think this market will unwind slowly when it goes south. I don’t think most collectors will sell their little gems when this happens but dealers that are in debt will hit the market with every thing they have. I personally know one dealer in Texas, that is well liked on this board, that took out a second lien on his home to finance his coin business. If he cannot make the big money before a sever correction I think he will unload everything all at once, I know he is already nervous about his debt.
“Far from having missed the boat, it is still under construction.”
O.K. cladking help us out here, where should we be buying if we think this market still has time to go ?
“Far from having missed the boat, it is still under construction.”
O.K. cladking help us out here, where should we be buying if we think this market still has time to go ? >>
Please bear with me while I make some caveats. The statement concerns moderns. There is no certainty that the market or any segment of it is going to continue upward. Indeed any segment could crash independently of he rest. Coins make lousy investments and modern coins are no exception to this rule. I don't normally suggest any specific coins which I believe are underpriced because it detracts from a more important message and because coin pur- chases are always risky. This being said, I'll answer the question:
Any of the circulating issues in mint state which are very high quality for the date but are not of interest to registry collectors. This means coins like MS-64 1969 quarters, MS-63 '82-P's, MS-66 '76-P or D, and MS-63 '83-P. Late '70's dimes with nice solid strikes and nice luster in MS-66 and MS-67 can be bought cheaply. The same applies to many of the other denominations but they are not my specialty so will withhold specific references. Many of the greatest deals in moderns are in raw coins; this especially includes nice original mint sets like the '68 to '74, and almost any date that you can be confident hasn't been picked over. There are also the souve- nir mint sets. These should be purchased with the knowledge that the coins in them are not of as high of quality as the regular mint sets, but they were made in much smaller numbers. Some had mintages in the hundreds. Some contain gems which are available nowhere else. These can often be picked up for a couple of dollars regardless of date.
There are probably many bargains throughout the modern series and not being mentioned above in no way means that they are a worse collectible or a worse buy than others.
The easy credit Gold Saint has described has put Trillions of dollars of extra money to work. Anyone can get credit. I hear car commercials on the radio where they say "everyone deserves a new car?" They do? Even if they have terrible credit and cannot afford it? Yup, that's today's instant gratification society. SUV, 4-6 bedroom new house, monster coins....you can have it all....on credit. There were plenty of leveraged dealers and investors back in 1989. The same snap that occured in May 1990, and in May 1980 will most certainly happen again. The huge collector base that has formed will not stop the carnage of all those who in this for the short run. They will dump 100% when that time comes. The prompt drop cash flow will hurt the sale of 1893-s dollars and 1794 dollars as well.
Just a typical cycle where people think coin prices will never go down and when the bubble bursts (which it ALWAYS does) they will whine and complain. Hopefully people are not dumb enough to spend money on coins that they cannot afford to lose 100% of, if not I hope they learn from the experience because it does not matter what the sellers of these coins say now the prices will drop sharply just like they ALWAYS do. And as usual the dealers in these coins are the biggest defenders of current values as they do not want to be stuck holding the bag when prices start their downward trend which they ALWAYS do.
Although I am 80% collector/19% dealer and 1% investor, I always ask myself, as a sanity check on stuff I buy,.... "Ok John, is the coin you are about to buy nice enough that someone will want it after the bubble bursts?" (or after the United States defaults on its debts or something crazy like that for all you conspiracy theorists)... Every coin that I own, I think that I have answered with a yes.
Bottom line (as discussed before) is that there will ALWAYS be rich people out there buying coins. If I hold something rare/unique enough to hold it hostage, then I can get whatever I want to ask for it.
Avarice is a multi faceted useful emotion!!
That is why I dont worry too much about the market. Other than I wish it would fall so I could by more coins.
The crux of my problem with paying EXTREMELY high prices for very high grade coins that are VERY COMMON in Choice Mint State condition is this. If there are many Mint State examples of a coin around most collectors will be happy or at least satisfied with a far less expensive example.
And let’s face it. Some collectors can’t tell the difference between the Mint State grades, and SOMETIMES a one point grading difference doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. If coin sells for $300 in MS-67, is it really worth $11,000 in MS-68 in the long run?
If you have money to burn, no problem. But for most of us, a 30 + fold increase in price for one grading point seems excessive.
Now if you have a coin that is rare on an overall basis AND it is among the finest known or the finest known of it’s kind, no problem. I could see where a 1969-S doubled die cent in MS-65, red or better would be worth a huge premium. It’s rare overall; the doubling is very distinct; and most of the known examples are toned and actually pretty ugly.
An extremely rare coin like the 1969-S DDO in MS-65, red + could hold a lot of its value if the market took a big dive overall. Another item of which there are millions of Mint State survivors will more than likely be another story.
But you are a coin promoter, a high grade 1969-S very rarely comes along. If you want to play the game all the time, you need a steady supply, which gets us back to why these items have such ardent defenders.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
“If you have money to burn, no problem. But for most of us, a 30 + fold increase in price for one grading point seems excessive.”
Bill, I also think this is true of many toners. Some of the coins offered the last few weeks have been crazy. I see nothing wrong with paying two times white for a great color, and even three to five times, for a one of a kind color if it is slabbed, but some recent offerings have been 30 to 50 times white, WOW . Color is another one of those unknowns that is sometimes in favor, and sometimes not, as well as new coins are coming in all the time to say nothing of AT’s that make it into slabs. One of the posts currently on the forum is “post your toned silver eagles” , many of these are slabbed and one is a 2003 ? gee will someone please tell me how to get color in 12 months?
<< <i>please don't try to come off like a dealer who's concerned about the health of the hobby and modern's being the ruination of it all. what's going on is actually quite transparent----you don't like the fact that a segment of the hobby you view with disdain is prospering in any degree. it infuriates you, always seems to have since i've been here. >>
But that's exacly the way I do feel Keets. There are coins that have been minted within the last 40 years that are worth 5 figure numbers, but we are seeing more of them now than we should.
You can call me liar, spin doctor, or any name you like, this is my opinion based upon my experience as a collector for 40+ years and a dealer for about a decade. And yes I think that this market has reached a point with some unhealthy things are happening, and it's not just in recently issued items.
There are too many people out there know better when stupid things go on, like the foolishness with that 1963 cent in PCGS PR-70 Cameo, and either say nothing or say that "It's a great thing for the hobby." I'm not going to be one of those people.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Well, considering that these 5 figure coins (and 4 figure coins) are outside my price range I don't care if the bubble bursts on them or not. I'll be able to buy them cheaper. The <$500 coins, the kind I get, probably won't be affected all that much.
<< <i>Well, considering that these 5 figure coins (and 4 figure coins) are outside my price range I don't care if the bubble bursts on them or not. I'll be able to buy them cheaper. The <$500 coins, the kind I get, probably won't be affected all that much. >>
Yea you are probably right. The trouble is in the current market its getting harder and harder to find an interesting coin for $500 or less. Those coins have gone up too if they have decent eye appeal.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Bear, First I think this crazy market will keep going much longer than one year, perhaps 5 years, and where as today might be a good time to get rid of those dogs in your collection a year from now might be better. Even though we all see the inflation and discuss it here on a regular basis, Wall Street and Washington are still in denial. When our foolish press establishment starts talking about inflation on the nightly business news that is when the “public” will really start to wake up and get into this market. My opinion is that they are not here yet, and the news talk won’t even start until next year. So if we have a year to go before the public gets in, and three years of a HOT market we are somewhere out there 4 to 5 years. In addition to all of that, the baby boom group will start to become to old to play, five years will put many of them with fixed incomes at 62 to 64 years old waiting for the market to hit bottom. I always get a big kick out of the Wall street boys telling this group of older people, “ you need to invest for the long term”, oh is that right, what long term? I think THIS is the market for the baby boom group. These complicated cycles are just to long for an older group to set back and wait for another cycle, and I think they know that. Baby boomers have a different attitude about many things in life and that attitude is one of urgency! Oh by the way I am in that group.
<< <i>Bear, First I think this crazy market will keep going much longer than one year, perhaps 5 years, and where as today might be a good time to get rid of those dogs in your collection a year from now might be better. Even though we all see the inflation and discuss it here on a regular basis, Wall Street and Washington are still in denial. When our foolish press establishment starts talking about inflation on the nightly business news that is when the “public” will really start to wake up and get into this market. My opinion is that they are not here yet, and the news talk won’t even start until next year. So if we have a year to go before the public gets in, and three years of a HOT market we are somewhere out there 4 to 5 years. In addition to all of that, the baby boom group will start to become to old to play, five years will put many of them with fixed incomes at 62 to 64 years old waiting for the market to hit bottom. I always get a big kick out of the Wall street boys telling this group of older people, “ you need to invest for the long term”, oh is that right, what long term? I think THIS is the market for the baby boom group. These complicated cycles are just to long for an older group to set back and wait for another cycle, and I think they know that. Baby boomers have a different attitude about many things in life and that attitude is one of urgency! Oh by the way I am in that group. >>
This all coincides with a structural change to the coin market. Specifically that older collectors are nearing retirement and will be replaced over the next couple of decades by much younger collectors. This retirement will, of course, include the returning col- lectors who collected in the mid-'60's and are nearing retirement. It is mainly the return of collecting from "circulartion" which is driving the recruitment of new collectors. The hob- by itself has not done much to gain new collectors and those which have shown up are largely thanks to Congress and the US mint. (obviously collectors played a major roll in these developments starting in 1973 with John J Pittman's urging of Congress for a cir- culating bicentennial issue which resulted in the quarter) The new collectors see a fun hob- by and don't think anything will be the ruination of it. They are collecting coins across a broad spectrum from gem to circ, classic to modern, and US to ancients. Yes, most are still beginners and haven't broadened their interests a great deal yet, but it will come to most.
The hobby will be much stronger for years with or without inflation (which is likely building rapidly), It will favor the same sorts of coins that it has always favored and as Bear said it will favor quality, rarity, and beauty regardless of the age of the coin. It should be an interesting ride.
But make no mistake about it, there are two things which will be different about this ride. First and most importantly the structural changes mean that the hobby can actually grow and retain this growth. In the past when the ride was over there was always a crash back to Earth as historical patterns reemerged. Secondly, this ride will not end in the same place as previous rides. This is simply because the participants are going to change.
Lest I be accused of saying coin prices are going to the moon and this time it's different. No, far from it. I'm saying that reality and nature are going to determine an unpredictable future as surely as supply and demand determines the value of coins. I'm saying that while the future is unpred- ictable the laws of nature will still prevail and that this set of circumstances has not existed during the lifetime of any collector or even during the century and a half that coins have been widely col- lected.
“Lest I be accused of saying coin prices are going to the moon”
Cladking, and moon is a relative term. Many of these prices already seem like moon money to me but then again my perspective is so much different from the new people coming in with no background prejudice. Ones perspective always has to do with your experience. When my 23-year-old daughter and her husband bought a house recently for $132,000 I was amazed how small it was and thought back on my first house I paid $13,000 for. New people coming into this market seeing coins where there are just a few hundred available, to say nothing of true rarities, just have to be in amazement how cheap these are, while all of us are just shaking our heads.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the alloy melting pot. There is not going to be any BIG crash. Again, there are more collectors, and the US Mints arent making any more coins dated prior to 2004! Everyone can do their homework, and find out about some of these coins' past record sales. Even then, I've paid 60% or higher than I thought I would for many.... But I'm fine with it. No hurry to run to the hills and sell if I dont want to. Don't need to either. Because I made so much from stuff I had 4 to 5 years back, I have been able to UPGRADE. And I'm sure it is a trickle down effect too. California real estate rises had amazed me 10 years ago. And it is still going up astronomically. Everyone has more money.
ok I wasnt gonna piss on the fire, but I have a few things to address:
1) Mitchell, justman has serious potential
2) whats wrong with someone who really wants a coin and is willing to pay what he can afford to get it? Does one think for one second the guy who bought the 42d/d did it for investment purpose? I dont.
3) market does seem way overpriced, and like i said, if I overspent on my stuff oh woooh was me, I didnt buy my babys for resale $$
4)funny thing is one true point came out, and Im not trying to cause speculation...but I wouldnt be suprised if the seller of the ms63fs whipped out a few more of the likes for grading before XMAS
"Everyone has more money." Exactly. That's the reason for the price increases. If I'm given an easy $50K-$100K after a refi, where would it go? Coins of course. Dollardude would be in mutual funds. Mr Kelso would buy gold. Another guy buys a classic car. Someone else buys real estate. Net effect is, people are buying things with this new-found printed money and jacking prices up. If the govt all of a sudden gave each of us $100,000 to spend "free" of charge for the near term as long as %rates stay low (pretty much what a refi does if you ask me), then we go out and buy. We are not going to invest in CD's or dollar-related assets, not when old Bernake is printing Billions of dollars every week. At what point do we break the camel's back? Some here in the forum suggest the camel's back can support and unlimited amount of debt and that things will stay rosy for years and years to come. I cannot fathom it. The piper eventually has to be paid. We will see double digit interest rates once again in order to slow this train down. Likewise gold has been kept under wraps by the central banks in the 1990's to keep this whole inflationary thing under wraps. Gold has not been allowed to seek it's true value based on inflationary pressures over the past 15 years. It should be well into the $500 range just to have kept pace with the M3 increase. Time will tell who wins this game.
What Ike is worth $40,000 that was found in change?? I'm not doubting it, but what's to say there won't be another one or a hundred of the same found the same way. But, you know you won't find a svdb in change. Or ANY coin minted in the 1800's. In my opinion, you are really taking a chance spending that kind of money on moderns, not knowing what is out there. JMHO. Steve
That $40,000 Ike was the 1971 "mop top" head variety to commemorate the break up of the beatles the year before. Ever see a hairy Ike? I believe it was later traded for a 1974 aluminum cent.
<< <i>What Ike is worth $40,000 that was found in change?? I'm not doubting it, but what's to say there won't be another one or a hundred of the same found the same way. But, you know you won't find a svdb in change. Or ANY coin minted in the 1800's. In my opinion, you are really taking a chance spending that kind of money on moderns, not knowing what is out there. JMHO. Steve >>
Everyday in this country there are a couple hundred Ikes being spent. These are generally from the years with mintages of 50 or 100 million. With this number of coins being used, it should be a long time before the next unique or rare Ike hits a cash register. If you don't collect these then it will never be known what's common or what's rare. If you do collect them then you'll soon enough be looking for the rarities too.
Again, what's to say there are not a hundred more of these mopheads still out there? Where there is one, there should be more. Add a couple more and that $40,000 price drops. Of couse wondercoin [no offense] sold it and made his profit so it could drop to face value and so what. Give me coins where you are pretty sure there are no suprises. But, I'm poor. I stay with $10.00 to $1000.00 coins. JMHO. Steve
People set aside most of those old coins because they were made of silver, or required to as backing for currency, or as a store of value or many other reasons. They went down in ships or were lost in accidents during tranfer of large specie payments. They are found in bank vaults, in ship wrecks, in abandoned safety deposit boxes and even in the woodwork of old buildings. They come back in plane loads from other countries and turn up all over the world since American coin was popular before 1965.
There is far more chance that most of the classics will show up than another of these Ikes.
This is beside the point anyway since the fun of collecting is in searching, finding, and learning about the coins he's collecting not in counting how many of the coins are in existence or con- cerning oneself with what's really unimportant about his series. If a small quantity of a rare gem bust halfs were found, would collectors drop their collections and seek another, or would they try to get one of them? If a bag of nice '09-S VDB cents hit the market do you think there would be a mass exodus from Lincoln collecting?
What Ike is worth $40,000 that was found in change?? I'm not doubting it, but what's to say there won't be another one or a hundred of the same found the same way. But, you know you won't find a svdb in change. Or ANY coin minted in the 1800's. In my opinion, you are really taking a chance spending that kind of money on moderns, not knowing what is out there. JMHO. Steve
i'm not picking on you Steve, but this simple statement and the whole basis for this thread are really both based on the same misguided premise. that premise assumes that the buyer of the Ike and the buyer of the 1942-D/Horizontal D Jefferson aren't sophisticated enough collectors to know what they're doing. it presumes that both are some type of free-wheeling yuppie with too much cash and not enough toys who want to take chances on some cute coins that they've been told are special/rare/good investments.
is it possible, is it probable that both could be intelligent collectors who have done their homework and know what they're buying?? simply because certain coins aren't within the realm of our collecting likes and are hence really unknown to us as far as what they really are shouldn't be cause for disdain towards those who know/understand those things.
why not give a buyer the benefit of the doubt and hold off criticizing who/what we don't know??
Keets, these people may be super intelligent billionaires, but that doesn't mean that they know how many of a coin is around. [especially if it was found in change] I'm not saying they can't do what they want, but it won't take many more of these coins to turn up to make a $40,000 coin into a $10,000 coin, or less. I'm an older collector, but am not so dumb not to believe that todays new young collector isn't interested in modern coins. I like some of them,too. And it may be the future of collecting. But that doesn't mean that you aren't taking a chance spending big money on moderns when there is a pretty good chance there may be a lot more of them showing up. I collect early red PCGS Lincolns, and I believe that there won't be a roll of 1916's or 1919's coming on the market to drop the price way down. But, I don't think that you can say that about moderns. Back in the 60's [when roll mania was in full bloom]people saved that stuff by the bag and I think a ton of it is still around. I believe there is a lot of potential for Lincoln Memorials in 2008 and 2009. JMHO. steve
I forgot to add. I don't think these rich collector/investors are any smarter than the rich collector/investors back in the 70's and 80's who spent the same kind of money, then stood back and watched most of it go down the drain. It happened before and COULD happen again.
<< <i>I believe that there won't be a roll of 1916's or 1919's coming on the market... >>
Sure there are some rolls of these out there (esp those two dates!). JacktheKnife has bought some really early original Lincoln rolls. Didn't someone say they've heard that there exists an original roll of 1901-s quarters somewhere. Anyway, try to actually find an original roll of quarters to buy from 1991-1995, I'd bet you couldn't or it'd at least be quite a task finding them (I was lucky enough to find one, a roll of 92-d).
<< <i>I forgot to add. I don't think these rich collector/investors are any smarter than the rich collector/investors back in the 70's and 80's who spent the same kind of money, then stood back and watched most of it go down the drain. It happened before and COULD happen again. >>
For the main part it is we old timers who got burned in the previous run-ups. Oh sure many of us avoided some of the traps, but it it is these losses which have made us so sceptical of coins which have increased a lot. Certainly a lot of moderns have had huge percentage increases and it's hardly impossible that they can drop, but the huge increases are due primarily to the fact that they started from such very low levels and those low levels were caused by collectors ignoring the coins for decades. Attrition during this time was huge and now there are collectors seeking them. They are finding many surprising coins from con- dition rarities to varieties and special issues. They are finding that many of these coins did make it into circulation and that some issues simply were not saved.
It's not a matter of intelligence and never was. It's a matter of trends, it's a matter of rarity, but mostly it's a matter of time.
i'm just confused as to why anyone assumes that just because someone pays what others consider to be an exhorbitant amount for a coin that it's a bad thing. your two posts show a thought pattern which suggests that the buyer of the Jefferson or the Ike is somehow supposed to be held in low esteem just because he has money.
these people may be super intelligent billionaires, but that doesn't mean that they know how many of a coin is around.
I don't think these rich collector/investors are any smarter than the rich collector/investors back in the 70's and 80's
maybe it's just a difference in how we choose to view others, but i figure that the buyer, like so many other forum members, happens to be a smart collector who also has the means to buy what he considers important coins for his collection. i don't hold that against them. i think your reference to what took place in the late 80's is valid to a point, but again we have a difference in how we think about it.
............and just to clarify about the Ike dollar and the suspicion that the pop on the coin will grow by a hundred or so and that wondercoin is a profiteer who raped someone:
"Mitch, in an unrelated matter, if you can pay $40,000 for an Ike dollar and make a living sellling it to someone else, the more power to you."
Elcontador: When the two "billionaires" come looking for that UNIQUE pattern Ike Dollar to put the last coin in one of their 100% complete pattern collections, that should be something
Wondercoin
.............and then this:
Not to interrupt the discussion, the type II silver clad proof NO S Ike is pretty special. I always wondered why THAT proof was spent. I'm assuming that was the coin.
End of interruption.
i'm beginning to think that some begrudge wealthy collectors who spend money on rare modern issues.
Keets, You are putting words in my mouth. My only point being, how does anyone know that there is only one or two coins of this type out there. There could be a thousand. After all, it is only 30 years old. No one knows for sure. In my opinion, there might be more. If so, that makes a $40,000 coin worth a thousand bucks. I also never said anything about Wondercoin ripping people off. He has a good reputation on this board. Somemone agreed to pay that amount. I wouldn't turn it down either. JMHO. Steve
Are you guys just jealous? Dont worry about the buyer who bought the Ike or the 1942 D over Horizontal D. Maybe they are NOT like you, and worried whether they will be able to sell it at a profit someday. Maybe they are going to hold onto it longer than a few months, unlike the dealers. Maybe they DO know what they are doing, and have done their homework. So many lincoln collectors on this forum... when it is so easy for the MS64 reds to be resubmitted to MS65 reds, and then the existing red's in 65 lose value. I was unsure when I bought 4 MS 64, 65 FB 1916-d Mercury Dimes over the past 3-5 years when the PCGS population reports were so high. Not worried anymore, considering the price increase, and obviously the number of new collectors gobbling up everything, and the fact EVERY Merc lover wants that coin.
That nickel cost what, $12,000? (cant remember). Let's say it goes down to $9000 in 5 years. BIG DEAL. Only $3000 drop. Still doesnt have to sell it. And then he/she could write off $3000 loss for taxes in their high tax bracket, if they decided to sell it.
I bet it will be worth more than what was paid for it in 5 years....
I bet the holders of that nickel and dollar have other bigger worries to tend to, and not worried for a second about their coin purchases.
"how does anyone know that there is only one or two coins of this type out there. There could be a thousand. After all, it is only 30 years old. No one knows for sure. In my opinion, there might be more. If so, that makes a $40,000 coin worth a thousand bucks. I also never said anything about Wondercoin ripping people off. He has a good reputation on this board. Somemone agreed to pay that amount. I wouldn't turn it down either. JMHO. Steve"
Steve: FYI - I believe the Philadelphia Mint originally struck a grand total of (3) 1976 Proof Ikes in the year 1974 for presentation to President Ford, his Press Secretary and one other. I believe one or two of the coins were then displayed at the 1974 ANA Convention (showing what the future Bicentennial coins dated 1976 were going to look at). Following the 1974 ANA Convention, I have read that the Mint elected to destroy 2/3 coins (perhaps the President's and his press secretary) - the third coin not even surfacing until found in a cash register in the Wash DC area about 2 years later!! The latest Pattern Book indicates that the 1976(p) Proof Ike is Unique. In a discussion I had with Rick Montgomery around the time I bought the coin - we discussed the issue that the coin was more in the way of a "presentation piece", although "pattern" I believe is how Bowers elected to describe it and the authors of the pattern book also recognize it as such.
I personally view this particular modern Ike Dollar (struck in proof at the Philly Mint in 1974 and dated 1976) with a total mintage of 3 and a likely existing mintage of 1 coin possibly the most valuable modern coin in existence , which is why I bought it and then placed the coin with a special customer. Was this a "stupid" purchase at near $40k - all I can say is I was the high bidder and that was definately NOT my final bid to be placed in that auction for this potentially (well, very likely) unique coin!
I have said all along, just like "classic" coins, there are potentially incredible modern coins to acquire for the long haul, and then there are plenty of "dogs" and silly purchases as well. Obviously, this Ike Dollar falls into the former category IMHO.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Was this a "stupid" purchase at near $40k - all I can say is I was the high bidder and that was definately NOT my final bid to be placed in that auction for this potentially (well, very likely) unique coin!
A coin [and series] sure to rise in value as IKEs become more collectable. Also very historic, neat story and great purchase!
Recall, my comment about buying a $40k Ike came as a result of it being mentioned here on the thread (in a somewhat negative way I thought) how someone paid $10k for (2) Ikes as the highest price ever (obviously which is not the case anyway). Anyone who has studied the Ike series knows that there are Ikes where $10k for a single coin would be a downright "steal", let alone (2) coins for $10k. The fact that there are more and more "five figure coins" in more and more coin series (back to the theme of this thread) does not, per se, concern me, provided the purchases (be it classic or modern) are carefully thought out and researched by collectors. Obviously, a "$40k Ike" appears to possibly make perfect sense under the right circumstances and there are numerous Ike Dollars at $5k/coin that would make great sense as well if the opportunity presented itself. In fact, it is great to finally see scarce modern coins, such as high grade, key date Ikes, etc. finally get the recognition they deserve. And, of course, there are myriad classic and modern coins that, IMHO, are a "joke" at current levels. Research and experience are two keys in navigating through the current market.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
> Anyone who has studied the Ike series knows that there are Ikes where $10k for a single coin would be a downright "steal", let alone (2) coins for $10k.
In my knowledge, for regular issue Ike dollars (no patterns, no off-metal), there were at least two coins changed hands over $10K in the last three years. Try to dig them out with $20K now. I really really doubt it.
> there are numerous Ike Dollars at $5k/coin that would make great sense as well if the opportunity presented itself.
Yes, try to locate a clad Ike dollar (except 76D type 2) with true MS67 quality for under $5K. Good luck.
IMHO, the reason that folks keep on blasting the top grade Ike dollars are over-priced/over-values is that the pop top numbers are very low and they don't change hands very often. When they do change hands, the price is usually very high and then everyone says "what a nut!"
Is there any coin dealer who specialize the Ike dollar only? No, since top grade supply is so thin and second to the top grade did not sell much so that they won't survive if the dealer only buy/sell Ike dollars for living.
Comments
We seem to talk about this upward market every few weeks here, and most are amazed as the prices keep going, but it seems to me that one thing to watch closely is the big auctions. One of these days, and that day may be a long time off, Heritage or one of the other houses is going to have an auction and half of the reserves just won’t get met. When that happens the end is near. More and more the bulk of collectors are being left behind so the number of bidders continually gets smaller. When we start having down auctions the dealer community as a whole will start to unload and we will have a very interesting market for several months. In the late 70’s there was no bank credit for most dealers. Today with hundreds of lenders shoving credit at everyone there has to be lots of dealers that are leveraged with their inventories. I don’t think this market will unwind slowly when it goes south. I don’t think most collectors will sell their little gems when this happens but dealers that are in debt will hit the market with every thing they have.
I personally know one dealer in Texas, that is well liked on this board, that took out a second lien on his home to finance his coin business. If he cannot make the big money before a sever correction I think he will unload everything all at once, I know he is already nervous about his debt.
“Far from having missed the boat, it is still under construction.”
O.K. cladking help us out here, where should we be buying if we think this market still has time to go ?
<< <i>
“Far from having missed the boat, it is still under construction.”
O.K. cladking help us out here, where should we be buying if we think this market still has time to go ? >>
Please bear with me while I make some caveats. The statement concerns moderns. There
is no certainty that the market or any segment of it is going to continue upward. Indeed any
segment could crash independently of he rest. Coins make lousy investments and modern
coins are no exception to this rule. I don't normally suggest any specific coins which I believe
are underpriced because it detracts from a more important message and because coin pur-
chases are always risky. This being said, I'll answer the question:
Any of the circulating issues in mint state which are very high quality for the date but are not
of interest to registry collectors. This means coins like MS-64 1969 quarters, MS-63 '82-P's,
MS-66 '76-P or D, and MS-63 '83-P. Late '70's dimes with nice solid strikes and nice luster in
MS-66 and MS-67 can be bought cheaply. The same applies to many of the other denominations
but they are not my specialty so will withhold specific references. Many of the greatest deals in
moderns are in raw coins; this especially includes nice original mint sets like the '68 to '74, and
almost any date that you can be confident hasn't been picked over. There are also the souve-
nir mint sets. These should be purchased with the knowledge that the coins in them are not of
as high of quality as the regular mint sets, but they were made in much smaller numbers. Some
had mintages in the hundreds. Some contain gems which are available nowhere else. These
can often be picked up for a couple of dollars regardless of date.
There are probably many bargains throughout the modern series and not being mentioned
above in no way means that they are a worse collectible or a worse buy than others.
There were plenty of leveraged dealers and investors back in 1989.
The same snap that occured in May 1990, and in May 1980 will most certainly happen again. The huge collector base that has formed will not stop the carnage of all those who in this for the short run.
They will dump 100% when that time comes. The prompt drop cash flow will hurt the sale of 1893-s dollars and 1794 dollars as well.
roadrunner
<< <i>It appears that Washington quarters have already started the downward drift... >>
Maybe the downward drift is due to the fact that the recent designs are FUGLY!!!
Bottom line (as discussed before) is that there will ALWAYS be rich people out there buying coins. If I hold something rare/unique enough to hold it hostage, then I can get whatever I want to ask for it.
Avarice is a multi faceted useful emotion!!
That is why I dont worry too much about the market. Other than I wish it would fall so I could by more coins.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
And let’s face it. Some collectors can’t tell the difference between the Mint State grades, and SOMETIMES a one point grading difference doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. If coin sells for $300 in MS-67, is it really worth $11,000 in MS-68 in the long run?
If you have money to burn, no problem. But for most of us, a 30 + fold increase in price for one grading point seems excessive.
Now if you have a coin that is rare on an overall basis AND it is among the finest known or the finest known of it’s kind, no problem. I could see where a 1969-S doubled die cent in MS-65, red or better would be worth a huge premium. It’s rare overall; the doubling is very distinct; and most of the known examples are toned and actually pretty ugly.
An extremely rare coin like the 1969-S DDO in MS-65, red + could hold a lot of its value if the market took a big dive overall. Another item of which there are millions of Mint State survivors will more than likely be another story.
But you are a coin promoter, a high grade 1969-S very rarely comes along. If you want to play the game all the time, you need a steady supply, which gets us back to why these items have such ardent defenders.
Bill, I also think this is true of many toners. Some of the coins offered the last few weeks have been crazy.
I see nothing wrong with paying two times white for a great color, and even three to five times, for a one of a kind color if it is slabbed, but some recent offerings have been 30 to 50 times white, WOW . Color is another one of those unknowns that is sometimes in favor, and sometimes not, as well as new coins are coming in all the time to say nothing of AT’s that make it into slabs. One of the posts currently on the forum is “post your toned silver eagles” , many of these are slabbed and one is a 2003 ? gee will someone please tell me how to get color in 12 months?
Hey Cladking, thanks for your advice!
<< <i>please don't try to come off like a dealer who's concerned about the health of the hobby and modern's being the ruination of it all. what's going on is actually quite transparent----you don't like the fact that a segment of the hobby you view with disdain is prospering in any degree. it infuriates you, always seems to have since i've been here. >>
But that's exacly the way I do feel Keets. There are coins that have been minted within the last 40 years that are worth 5 figure numbers, but we are seeing more of them now than we should.
You can call me liar, spin doctor, or any name you like, this is my opinion based upon my experience as a collector for 40+ years and a dealer for about a decade. And yes I think that this market has reached a point with some unhealthy things are happening, and it's not just in recently issued items.
There are too many people out there know better when stupid things go on, like the foolishness with that 1963 cent in PCGS PR-70 Cameo, and either say nothing or say that "It's a great thing for the hobby." I'm not going to be one of those people.
<< <i>Well, considering that these 5 figure coins (and 4 figure coins) are outside my price range I don't care if the bubble bursts on them or not. I'll be able to buy them cheaper. The <$500 coins, the kind I get, probably won't be affected all that much. >>
Yea you are probably right. The trouble is in the current market its getting harder and harder to find an interesting coin for $500 or less. Those coins have gone up too if they have decent eye appeal.
coin collecting. Inflation of money supply, is a short term tool to support the economy as well as lessen
the impact of tremendous trade deficites. The government , as the first entity to spend the cheapened money,
benefits the most. After the monetary dilution filters thru the economy, inflation is the result. With National elections
coming up , no incumbent administration wants to see anything but an expanding economy even if the end result
is inflation. As long as the payment of the bill comes after elections. The impact of inflation would be the scramble
for assets that will keep pace with inflation and a rush to get out of cheapening dollars. Art, gold, silver and rare
coins would benefit. As inflation worsens, interest rate will increase and the money supply will be reduced
meaning that the cost of money will go up. This will eventually choke off inflation, contract the economy and
eventually have a negetive effect on hard assets. Even as the market for rare coins tightens and values go
down, quality coins will still be difficult to find and beneficial to own. If you are holding good stuff, then sit tight
thru any downturn and wait for the next upward cycle to begin. Expect to see quality coins disappear from the
market in a downturn as holders of such coins lock them away in the vault and await better times for selling.
It is my opinion that the coin market has a period of perhaps another year or so before the high cost of money
and the economic contraction begins to take a toll. Use this year of grace to sell off your mistakes, poor quality
coins and coins that are in danger of exploding populations in high grades. Save key dates and modern coins
that are truly rare in high grades as well as the more traditional classical series. The hobby of coins is fun and
can be profitableas long as one is patient, prudent and wise.
Camelot
Oh by the way I am in that group.
<< <i>Bear, First I think this crazy market will keep going much longer than one year, perhaps 5 years, and where as today might be a good time to get rid of those dogs in your collection a year from now might be better. Even though we all see the inflation and discuss it here on a regular basis, Wall Street and Washington are still in denial. When our foolish press establishment starts talking about inflation on the nightly business news that is when the “public” will really start to wake up and get into this market. My opinion is that they are not here yet, and the news talk won’t even start until next year. So if we have a year to go before the public gets in, and three years of a HOT market we are somewhere out there 4 to 5 years. In addition to all of that, the baby boom group will start to become to old to play, five years will put many of them with fixed incomes at 62 to 64 years old waiting for the market to hit bottom. I always get a big kick out of the Wall street boys telling this group of older people, “ you need to invest for the long term”, oh is that right, what long term? I think THIS is the market for the baby boom group. These complicated cycles are just to long for an older group to set back and wait for another cycle, and I think they know that. Baby boomers have a different attitude about many things in life and that attitude is one of urgency!
Oh by the way I am in that group. >>
This all coincides with a structural change to the coin market. Specifically that older
collectors are nearing retirement and will be replaced over the next couple of decades
by much younger collectors. This retirement will, of course, include the returning col-
lectors who collected in the mid-'60's and are nearing retirement. It is mainly the return
of collecting from "circulartion" which is driving the recruitment of new collectors. The hob-
by itself has not done much to gain new collectors and those which have shown up are
largely thanks to Congress and the US mint. (obviously collectors played a major roll in
these developments starting in 1973 with John J Pittman's urging of Congress for a cir-
culating bicentennial issue which resulted in the quarter) The new collectors see a fun hob-
by and don't think anything will be the ruination of it. They are collecting coins across a broad
spectrum from gem to circ, classic to modern, and US to ancients. Yes, most are still beginners
and haven't broadened their interests a great deal yet, but it will come to most.
The hobby will be much stronger for years with or without inflation (which is likely building rapidly),
It will favor the same sorts of coins that it has always favored and as Bear said it will favor
quality, rarity, and beauty regardless of the age of the coin. It should be an interesting ride.
But make no mistake about it, there are two things which will be different about this ride. First
and most importantly the structural changes mean that the hobby can actually grow and retain
this growth. In the past when the ride was over there was always a crash back to Earth as
historical patterns reemerged. Secondly, this ride will not end in the same place as previous rides.
This is simply because the participants are going to change.
Lest I be accused of saying coin prices are going to the moon and this time it's different. No, far
from it. I'm saying that reality and nature are going to determine an unpredictable future as surely
as supply and demand determines the value of coins. I'm saying that while the future is unpred-
ictable the laws of nature will still prevail and that this set of circumstances has not existed during
the lifetime of any collector or even during the century and a half that coins have been widely col-
lected.
Cladking, and moon is a relative term. Many of these prices already seem like moon money to me but then again my perspective is so much different from the new people coming in with no background prejudice.
Ones perspective always has to do with your experience. When my 23-year-old daughter and her husband bought a house recently for $132,000 I was amazed how small it was and thought back on my first house I paid $13,000 for. New people coming into this market seeing coins where there are just a few hundred available, to say nothing of true rarities, just have to be in amazement how cheap these are, while all of us are just shaking our heads.
1) Mitchell, justman has serious potential
2) whats wrong with someone who really wants a coin and is willing to pay what he can afford to get it? Does one think for one second the guy who bought the 42d/d did it for investment purpose? I dont.
3) market does seem way overpriced, and like i said, if I overspent on my stuff oh woooh was me, I didnt buy my babys for resale $$
4)funny thing is one true point came out, and Im not trying to cause speculation...but I wouldnt be suprised if the seller of the ms63fs whipped out a few more of the likes for grading before XMAS
chew on dat puppy
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Mr Kelso would buy gold. Another guy buys a classic car. Someone else buys real estate. Net effect is, people are buying things with this new-found printed money and jacking prices up. If the govt all of a sudden gave each of us $100,000 to spend "free" of charge for the near term as long as %rates stay low (pretty much what a refi does if you ask me), then we go out and buy. We are not going to invest in CD's or dollar-related assets, not when old Bernake is printing Billions of dollars every week. At what point do we break the camel's back? Some here in the forum suggest the camel's back can support and unlimited amount of debt and that things will stay rosy for years and years to come. I cannot fathom it. The piper eventually has to be paid. We will see double digit interest rates once again in order to slow this train down. Likewise gold has been kept under wraps by the central banks in the 1990's to keep this whole inflationary thing under wraps. Gold has not been allowed to seek it's true value based on inflationary pressures over the past 15 years. It should be well into the $500 range just to have kept pace with the M3 increase. Time will tell who wins this game.
roadrunner
roadrunner
<< <i>What Ike is worth $40,000 that was found in change?? I'm not doubting it, but what's to say there won't be another one or a hundred of the same found the same way. But, you know you won't find a svdb in change. Or ANY coin minted in the 1800's. In my opinion, you are really taking a chance spending that kind of money on moderns, not knowing what is out there. JMHO. Steve >>
Everyday in this country there are a couple hundred Ikes being spent. These are generally
from the years with mintages of 50 or 100 million. With this number of coins being used, it
should be a long time before the next unique or rare Ike hits a cash register. If you don't
collect these then it will never be known what's common or what's rare. If you do collect
them then you'll soon enough be looking for the rarities too.
<< <i>Everyday in this country there are a couple hundred Ikes being spent. >>
Interesting thought. A couple hundred. Compared with how many quarters, a couple hundred thousand? a couple hundred million? Wow!
to as backing for currency, or as a store of value or many other reasons. They went down
in ships or were lost in accidents during tranfer of large specie payments. They are found
in bank vaults, in ship wrecks, in abandoned safety deposit boxes and even in the woodwork
of old buildings. They come back in plane loads from other countries and turn up all over the
world since American coin was popular before 1965.
There is far more chance that most of the classics will show up than another of these Ikes.
This is beside the point anyway since the fun of collecting is in searching, finding, and learning
about the coins he's collecting not in counting how many of the coins are in existence or con-
cerning oneself with what's really unimportant about his series. If a small quantity of a rare
gem bust halfs were found, would collectors drop their collections and seek another, or would
they try to get one of them? If a bag of nice '09-S VDB cents hit the market do you think there
would be a mass exodus from Lincoln collecting?
<< <i>
<< <i>Everyday in this country there are a couple hundred Ikes being spent. >>
Interesting thought. A couple hundred. Compared with how many quarters, a couple hundred thousand? a couple hundred million? Wow! >>
Clad quarters have a very high velocity in comparison. It should be a little more than a billion per day.
i'm not picking on you Steve, but this simple statement and the whole basis for this thread are really both based on the same misguided premise. that premise assumes that the buyer of the Ike and the buyer of the 1942-D/Horizontal D Jefferson aren't sophisticated enough collectors to know what they're doing. it presumes that both are some type of free-wheeling yuppie with too much cash and not enough toys who want to take chances on some cute coins that they've been told are special/rare/good investments.
is it possible, is it probable that both could be intelligent collectors who have done their homework and know what they're buying?? simply because certain coins aren't within the realm of our collecting likes and are hence really unknown to us as far as what they really are shouldn't be cause for disdain towards those who know/understand those things.
why not give a buyer the benefit of the doubt and hold off criticizing who/what we don't know??
al h.
<< <i>I believe that there won't be a roll of 1916's or 1919's coming on the market... >>
Sure there are some rolls of these out there (esp those two dates!). JacktheKnife has bought some really early original Lincoln rolls. Didn't someone say they've heard that there exists an original roll of 1901-s quarters somewhere. Anyway, try to actually find an original roll of quarters to buy from 1991-1995, I'd bet you couldn't or it'd at least be quite a task finding them (I was lucky enough to find one, a roll of 92-d).
<< <i>I forgot to add. I don't think these rich collector/investors are any smarter than the rich collector/investors back in the 70's and 80's who spent the same kind of money, then stood back and watched most of it go down the drain. It happened before and COULD happen again. >>
For the main part it is we old timers who got burned in the previous run-ups. Oh sure
many of us avoided some of the traps, but it it is these losses which have made us so
sceptical of coins which have increased a lot. Certainly a lot of moderns have had huge
percentage increases and it's hardly impossible that they can drop, but the huge increases
are due primarily to the fact that they started from such very low levels and those low levels
were caused by collectors ignoring the coins for decades. Attrition during this time was huge
and now there are collectors seeking them. They are finding many surprising coins from con-
dition rarities to varieties and special issues. They are finding that many of these coins did
make it into circulation and that some issues simply were not saved.
It's not a matter of intelligence and never was. It's a matter of trends, it's a matter of rarity,
but mostly it's a matter of time.
i'm just confused as to why anyone assumes that just because someone pays what others consider to be an exhorbitant amount for a coin that it's a bad thing. your two posts show a thought pattern which suggests that the buyer of the Jefferson or the Ike is somehow supposed to be held in low esteem just because he has money.
these people may be super intelligent billionaires, but that doesn't mean that they know how many of a coin is around.
I don't think these rich collector/investors are any smarter than the rich collector/investors back in the 70's and 80's
maybe it's just a difference in how we choose to view others, but i figure that the buyer, like so many other forum members, happens to be a smart collector who also has the means to buy what he considers important coins for his collection. i don't hold that against them. i think your reference to what took place in the late 80's is valid to a point, but again we have a difference in how we think about it.
............and just to clarify about the Ike dollar and the suspicion that the pop on the coin will grow by a hundred or so and that wondercoin is a profiteer who raped someone:
"Mitch, in an unrelated matter, if you can pay $40,000 for an Ike dollar and make a living sellling it to someone else, the more power to you."
Elcontador: When the two "billionaires" come looking for that UNIQUE pattern Ike Dollar to put the last coin in one of their 100% complete pattern collections, that should be something
Wondercoin
.............and then this:
Not to interrupt the discussion, the type II silver clad proof NO S Ike is pretty special. I always wondered why THAT proof was spent. I'm assuming that was the coin.
End of interruption.
i'm beginning to think that some begrudge wealthy collectors who spend money on rare modern issues.
al h.
Supply - Demand....Grade rarity...Grade FLATION, "collecting for the love of the hobby" vs. collecting as an investment
vs. collecting for re-sale. 46 years into this so-called "Hobby", I can honestly say- "I've seen it all."
If you're gonna run with the Big Dogs you had better educate yourself. If, like our dealer friend from Texas,
you are going to be so "All In" that you place a second mortgage on your house, you had better stay on top of
"What's Hot" and "What's NOT!" The transition from collector that just likes old coins (History in your hands)
to full fledged dealer that will drop 5 figures if not more on ONE coin is not for the faint of heart.
If you're scared, say you're scared. If you've gotten in over your head and out of your comfort zone, afraid the
bubble will burst then Brother...START BAILING NOW ! The theory is "Buy low-Sell high"..well right now, it's high...SELL.
Don't sell when the bubble bursts..it's too late by then and at THAT time, when the bubble bursts, is when"The Smarts"
will come out, pick up all the pieces and patiently await the next high.
There are those that have played their cards right. If or when the bubble bursts, they have their nest eggs and
can ride it out but then there are those that have taken excessive chances and are VERY nervous. If you're that
nervous, then sell and chill. VERY GOOD thread!
Are you guys just jealous? Dont worry about the buyer who bought the Ike or the 1942 D over Horizontal D. Maybe they are NOT like you, and worried whether they will be able to sell it at a profit someday. Maybe they are going to hold onto it longer than a few months, unlike the dealers. Maybe they DO know what they are doing, and have done their homework. So many lincoln collectors on this forum... when it is so easy for the MS64 reds to be resubmitted to MS65 reds, and then the existing red's in 65 lose value. I was unsure when I bought 4 MS 64, 65 FB 1916-d Mercury Dimes over the past 3-5 years when the PCGS population reports were so high. Not worried anymore, considering the price increase, and obviously the number of new collectors gobbling up everything, and the fact EVERY Merc lover wants that coin.
That nickel cost what, $12,000? (cant remember). Let's say it goes down to $9000 in 5 years. BIG DEAL. Only $3000 drop. Still doesnt have to sell it. And then he/she could write off $3000 loss for taxes in their high tax bracket, if they decided to sell it.
I bet it will be worth more than what was paid for it in 5 years....
I bet the holders of that nickel and dollar have other bigger worries to tend to, and not worried for a second about their coin purchases.
Steve: FYI - I believe the Philadelphia Mint originally struck a grand total of (3) 1976 Proof Ikes in the year 1974 for presentation to President Ford, his Press Secretary and one other. I believe one or two of the coins were then displayed at the 1974 ANA Convention (showing what the future Bicentennial coins dated 1976 were going to look at). Following the 1974 ANA Convention, I have read that the Mint elected to destroy 2/3 coins (perhaps the President's and his press secretary) - the third coin not even surfacing until found in a cash register in the Wash DC area about 2 years later!! The latest Pattern Book indicates that the 1976(p) Proof Ike is Unique. In a discussion I had with Rick Montgomery around the time I bought the coin - we discussed the issue that the coin was more in the way of a "presentation piece", although "pattern" I believe is how Bowers elected to describe it and the authors of the pattern book also recognize it as such.
I personally view this particular modern Ike Dollar (struck in proof at the Philly Mint in 1974 and dated 1976) with a total mintage of 3 and a likely existing mintage of 1 coin possibly the most valuable modern coin in existence , which is why I bought it and then placed the coin with a special customer. Was this a "stupid" purchase at near $40k - all I can say is I was the high bidder and that was definately NOT my final bid to be placed in that auction for this potentially (well, very likely) unique coin!
I have said all along, just like "classic" coins, there are potentially incredible modern coins to acquire for the long haul, and then there are plenty of "dogs" and silly purchases as well. Obviously, this Ike Dollar falls into the former category IMHO.
Wondercoin
Horizontal D"
Truer words have never been spoken
Wondercoin
A coin [and series] sure to rise in value as IKEs become more collectable. Also very historic, neat story and great purchase!
Recall, my comment about buying a $40k Ike came as a result of it being mentioned here on the thread (in a somewhat negative way I thought) how someone paid $10k for (2) Ikes as the highest price ever (obviously which is not the case anyway). Anyone who has studied the Ike series knows that there are Ikes where $10k for a single coin would be a downright "steal", let alone (2) coins for $10k. The fact that there are more and more "five figure coins" in more and more coin series (back to the theme of this thread) does not, per se, concern me, provided the purchases (be it classic or modern) are carefully thought out and researched by collectors. Obviously, a "$40k Ike" appears to possibly make perfect sense under the right circumstances and there are numerous Ike Dollars at $5k/coin that would make great sense as well if the opportunity presented itself. In fact, it is great to finally see scarce modern coins, such as high grade, key date Ikes, etc. finally get the recognition they deserve. And, of course, there are myriad classic and modern coins that, IMHO, are a "joke" at current levels. Research and experience are two keys in navigating through the current market.
Wondercoin
> Anyone who has studied the Ike series knows that there are Ikes where $10k for a single coin would be a downright "steal", let alone (2) coins for $10k.
In my knowledge, for regular issue Ike dollars (no patterns, no off-metal), there were at least two coins changed hands over $10K in the last three years. Try to dig them out with $20K now. I really really doubt it.
> there are numerous Ike Dollars at $5k/coin that would make great sense as well if the opportunity presented itself.
Yes, try to locate a clad Ike dollar (except 76D type 2) with true MS67 quality for under $5K. Good luck.
IMHO, the reason that folks keep on blasting the top grade Ike dollars are over-priced/over-values is that the pop top numbers are very low and they don't change hands very often. When they do change hands, the price is usually very high and then everyone says "what a nut!"
Is there any coin dealer who specialize the Ike dollar only? No, since top grade supply is so thin and second to the top grade did not sell much so that they won't survive if the dealer only buy/sell Ike dollars for living.