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$20 liberty hairlines,cleaning or cabinet friction?
Rockhound
Posts: 33
Hi all, my first post, you all are awesome sources of info, thanks. How about this question: I recently bought a pcgs ms62 1905 $20 Lib from heritage and when I received it I really liked it, as it has minimal hits on it. Upon using loupe I was surprised to see fine parallel hairlines going top to bottom, covering about 80% of the obverse, none on reverse. They also crisscross a bit upon rotating coin. Still has cartwheel, but subdued a little on obverse of course. PCGS says they won't grade a cleaned coin, yet this is definitely wiped. Anyone have any idea as to what the difference between cleaning, wiping and cabinet friction that would allow pcgs to grade it. I understand it was common practice to rub or wipe dust off of coins in cabinets, but isn't this cleaning then? Any input will be appreciated. Thank you. Here is the coin. http://apps.heritagecoin.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=346&Lot_No=10316&src=pr&sid=FEAB515A43E386945E5A6A7E33F77CF3. I hope this link works, if not a little help please.
Whatever you do, have a good time doing it.
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Edited to add: Sorry to be so rude. Welcome!!
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
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Nice sounding coin. PCGS will grade a cleaned coin if they feel that it is not harsh or done to deceive the condition. On rare issues they even let this slide to a degree. The coin is holdered by PCGS so they will make good their guarantee if there is a problem.
It's not uncommon. I have had a lot of older coins with light hairlines that I cracked out of other slabs that PCGS won't holder also. If they don't bother you I would leave it alone. If you think they deter from the eye appeal or value I would return it to Heritage or use the PCGS guarantee imho
Larry
Dabigkahuna
Some are really very, very nice AU coins with good eye appeal.
Some are attractive coins that have something done to them very lightly that might prompt a body bag if it had been done more forcefully. By that I mean that they might have been lightly cleaned, which could be the case here.
I would not say that removing dust from coin would be called cleaning. If done improperly it could result in hairlines. And sometimes hairlines result on coins from sliding over velvet in coin cabinet. This is known as "cabinet friction."
Some coins have planchet strip roller marks, but that was often in the 19th century. Other coins have die polish marks, but those should be raised.
My guess is that the hairlines that you see on your double eagle are the reason for the MS-62 grade. If they had not been there, the grade would probably be higher. AND if you had gotten strictly Mint State MS-62 without them, there would have been some rather pronounced bag marks on the coin instead.
Sometimes MS-62 coins are undergraded, but usually if they look smooth and attractive they are lightly rubbed or lightly cleaned.
<< <i>Hi all, my first post, you all are awesome sources of info, thanks. How about this question: I recently bought a pcgs ms62 1905 $20 Lib from heritage and when I received it I really liked it, as it has minimal hits on it. Upon using loupe I was surprised to see fine parallel hairlines going top to bottom, covering about 80% of the obverse, none on reverse. They also crisscross a bit upon rotating coin. Still has cartwheel, but subdued a little on obverse of course. PCGS says they won't grade a cleaned coin, yet this is definitely wiped. Anyone have any idea as to what the difference between cleaning, wiping and cabinet friction that would allow pcgs to grade it. I understand it was common practice to rub or wipe dust off of coins in cabinets, but isn't this cleaning then? Any input will be appreciated. Thank you. Here is the coin. http://apps.heritagecoin.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=346&Lot_No=10316&src=pr&sid=FEAB515A43E386945E5A6A7E33F77CF3. I hope this link works, if not a little help please. >>
From the Heritage photo, the coin appears to be a MS-64! If there are light hairlines and they are not die polish marks, they must be very light and were responsible for PCGS grading the coin only MS-62. It should be stated that most MS-62 graded $20 Libs are very unappealing and look like they've been through a major war! This is not the case case with this coin.
As others have written, PCGS will slab a lightly cleaned coin if in their opinion it's not detrimental to the overall appearance. This is a much better date, so if you like the general look, I wouldn't be too concerned.
The practice, adhered to by the two major grading companies, is called "market grading."
Ira Stein
I agree with Bill Jones completely. I am learning more about this myself. Many gold coins have been "cleaned" to a degree, and it is the judgment of the grader as to whether the cleaning is inconsequential to the grade, the cleaning reduces the grade, or the cleaning is so severe that the coin will not be encapsulated. There can be a very fine line between these three outcomes, and a single coin submitted on different occasions might receive different treatment depending on the "mood" of the grader at the moment.
I have two anecdotes that illustrate this from my recent submission:
An 1890 quarter eagle, that I have had since the age of twelve (26 years ago!), was purchased as an AU. Two years ago, I showed the coin to ANACS at a local show, and they told me it was lightly cleaned. I submitted anyway, and it was returned to me as "AU details, net grade XF-45." The hairlines are subtle, even under a 7x loupe, but definitely present. I cracked the same coin and sent it to PCGS, and the coin came back as AU-58.
An 1860 eagle was purchased in a Heritage auction last summer. It was in an old green PCGS VF-25 holder, and the coin looked attractive and undergraded based on the photo. The coin was cracked and sent to NGC and subsequently PCGS and has been bodybagged by both for "altered surface" and "cleaning" respectively. To my eye, there are no or minimal hairlines, but the surfaces are not quite "right." Were they not right when the coin was originally encapsulated, I expect so.
And then what do you call the 1905 $20, a semi-key?
It looks like a really nice coin, from the photo, and agreat pick-up.
Welcome aboard!
Keep the coin. You outbid me for it! Nice looking (eye appeal without a loupe) are hard to come by. I had to settle for an MS61 and even without viewing the two side by side, yours is the more attractive. Many MS62's have hairlines.
Mansco's Liberty Double Eagles
Mansco
Even the famed proof $20 gold collections I have seen have the same hairlines you speak of.
Now your next step is to find attractive $20 Liberty gold that are lustrous, with mimimal bagmarks and no hairlines!! Not so easy!!!
You are talking MS-64 and better to find those!!!
Keep the coin. You outbid me for it! Nice looking (eye appeal without a loupe) are hard to come by. I had to settle for an MS61 and even without viewing the two side by side, yours is the more attractive. Many MS62's have hairlines.
Were you at the auction or internet bidder? And thanks for advice all, will keep.
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Oh, yes...where are my manners?
welcome
<< <i>Where are you seeing hairlines on the coin? >>
I am seeing most of them in the fields, with just a few on the portrait. they are not anywhere near the date though. Thanks for the welcomes again...Don PS: Please excuse any technical mistakes I make while posting as I learn how to do this.
<< <i>BigE, I bet pcgs uses a loupe on coins like this, I don't care what anyone says especially when minute differences mean thousands in value------------------BigE >>
Those hairlines on gold stand ot pretty easily without a loupe when viewed under a light while turning it. mike
Now, I realize that die cracks and/or die striations are scarcer on gold coins since gold is relatively soft compared to the other metals but still worth a second look!
Too many times, I have assumed that the hairlines were from mishandling until I inspected them up and close in with a strong loupe only to find that they were die striations and/or die cracks!!!
<< <i>darktone: I try to use loupes to inspect "harlines" that I see on coins just in case they are NOT hairlines!!!! >>
Die cracks usually show up in the same places on liberty gold and I don't see how they could easily be mistaken for a cleaning hairline? I could understand confusing die polishing with cleaning hairlines. I have found out if you have a hazy area on high grade that you will probably find small hairlines with a loupe if you can't see them without one. mike
Its not slabbed but I feel it could have gone MS65 but do you think PCGS would slab this one and if so what grade will it most likely get?