T-206 Honus Wagner
ajw
Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭
Here's an interesting article about one guy's Honus and the million dollar question about its authenticity.
There's even a quote from Joe Orlando.
Is it real?
There's even a quote from Joe Orlando.
Is it real?
0
Comments
thats just my 2 cents.
Quoted from the article:
Bill Mastro says the card is almost certainly a reprint. The P in "PITTSBURG" should be slightly larger than the other letters, he says. It's the same size as the rest. "That's the only discrepancy," Edwards counters. "That's what makes it unique. One of one."
One of one? Too much protest methinks....
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Ken
- Slowly (Very Slowly) Working On A 1952 Topps Raw Set (Lower Grade)
We think alike, I picked the same quote. So to a short story. While stationed at Fr. Hamilton, NY, a guy tells me he owns a Wagner. I ask to see it. He bought it in an antique store for 300$. Hmm...suspicious - if an owner doesn't know what they had, it would have had a few dollar price tag IMO - price too high. He brings it in and I ask if it's Ok to take it out of the plastic tomb - right off I explain the front is too glossy and under 3x I show him there is a "photo" of a crease and you can't feel it - also the back is too fresh looking - best guess - photo reproduction of a real wagner since the fonts on the front look real good - after I show him all that, he is in complete denial - I did tell him I am no expert but to have it graded - this is 1993 and PSA was just really getting started but of course I referenced the Gretsky "8" - still he is incredulous - he said two people said it was real and one fake - I asked who said it was a fake - he replied David Festberg of Brooklyn - well he is a big time seller of old - I told him he could take that to the bank - still he was not convinced - I left Ft. Hamilton in 1996 and finally, when I bumped into him, he was convinced.
These guys, real or not will stick to the "dream" for a long, long time.
Mike
Ajw - great story!
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
<< <i>my guess is the owners, by now, know this and are trying to validate this card through other means. How do you think the Enquirer got onto this story in the first place? >>
Mark
You make an interesting point: are they trying to "validate" the card in the court of public opinion? Perhaps. That notwithstanding, one thing we know for sure - NO ONE is going to plunk down righteous bucks for this card without Valid Evidence of authenticity IMO.
Mike
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
<< <i>One night in particular. In February 2003, Edwards and Cobb drove to Appleton, Wis., to the offices of Integrated Paper Services Inc. There, they paid $303.50 to Walter Rantanen, Integrated's group leader in something called fiber science.
For six hours, Rantanen analyzed the paper stock on which Honus resided. He judged it to be pre-1916. It was free of titanium dioxide, a whitening pigment not used until 1921. Edwards and Cobb say that's crucial for dating their card. >>
Were they present for each of the 6 hours when Rantanen analyzed the paper? Things just do not add up. Won't GAI will grade a card right in front of you? These guys would know inside of 3 minutes if they had the real thing. If these two have done as much reseach as they claim they should know there is more than 1 grading service in the world that is recognized. "Pro Sports Authenticator" is not the only one, although the most regarded.
Cool story nonetheless.
<< <i>Were they present for each of the 6 hours when Rantanen analyzed the paper? >>
Ron
Another really good question! What were they doing for 6 hours?! Any testing at all of the paper would have meant 'sampling' the paper. Now, they could use a microscope, black (UV) and infrared light to determine the rate or lack of fluorescence but that would have to be compared to a standard. This should take all of 10 minutes. A really good source on this topic for anyone with time is the Cycleback article. It covers everything from couterfeits to the alteration of paintings, sportscards etc.
Mike
He referred me to their lawyer. The poor guy's gotten a ton of email on this already, and seems pretty sick of it.
The owners claim that PSA, SGC, and GAI have all told them that they can't watch while the card is being authenticated if they do the walk-through grading at the national. Is this true? It's been a while since I saw on-site grading done...
Just Morrie
Collector of Cards
Paul
If you have a fake Wagner what do you do? Introduce it to the hobby and try to get someone to fall for it. Do anything you can - even resort to calling the Enquirer. Maybe you can get an enquirer reader (possibly an outsider who knows little about the hobby) to take a chance on your card.
If someone out there wants to pay me $303.50, I will gladly tell you that your card is an authentic t206 Wagner. Hell I'll even give you a business card saying I'm an expert.
Only someone who knew it was unauthentic would try listing the card on E-bay, claiming they got it at an estate sale, perhaps in an envelope taped to the underside of a dresser drawer for a dramatic flair. It sounds like the same story found on the majority of the 1952 Mantle cards on E-bay, as well as the other popular reprints. The only reason they won't let PSA or any other graders touch it is because they know it's a fake.
The only place this card is getting slabbed is by PRO or GEM or one of those small-time kitchen table operations. Heck, even PRO might reject this one as a card this big could put their already shady company straight out of business if they slabbed it and it was later discovered to be a fake.
<< <i>I would say the owner's need to make an exception and let it out of their view for a few minutes while PSA grades (or doesn't grade) the card just to prove its status
Ken >>
except that they KNOW it is a fake
and do not want someone to PROVE it.
like Joe Orlando is quoted as saying in the story...
"The whole thing is comical"
and
"They're nuts", Orlando says
Joe
<< <i>With as much publicity as it's gotton now, I think PSA would be better off rejecting the card for grading entirely because I can guarantee after it comes back unslabbed because it's fake, they will start up with claims and lawsuits against PSA that they switched the card. No doubt about it. These guys are scammers. >>
a761506--
you assume they are scammers because they are black?
you assume they are scammers because they are black?
You are a moron!
who is mikey?
my profile clearly states that my name is kevin
learn how to read
<< <i>Oh wait, "pretzel" is Mikey. Hi Mikey! Got any "fight" videos you wanna share with us?
Why would you even make such a comment, to imply I am racist not knowing a thing about me? If you read my previous post on the same subject, which you obviously didn't, I said their story sounds the same as everyone else running auctions on E-bay for fakes. Found it at an estate sale, been in the family over 20 years, etc.
Please limit your future comments to meaningful ones about the subject of sports cards rather than making unfounded accusations about another board member who you don't even know.
<< <i>Please limit your future comments to meaningful ones about the subject of sports cards rather than making unfounded accusations about another board member who you don't even know. >>
a761506--
i'm not the one making unfounded accusations. you called these individuals scammers. you have no proof that they are aware that the card is not authentic.
i asked you a legitimate question which you clearly dodged.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
<< <i>you have no proof that they are aware that the card is not authentic. >>
except for the fact that
EVERY SINGLE "expert" they have showed it to
TOLD THEM it was a fake....
that would be the "proof" that they are "aware"....
hey,
maybe these many "experts" are in a conspiracy against
Them because they are black....
(vargha is correct. you are a moron)
have been the topic of much anger
and stupid discussion here before....
pretzel = mltucker ???
<< <i>The Web auction house recognizes seven card authenticators, one of which is PSA. >>
Who are the seven grading companies recognized by ebay?
PSA
SGC
GAI
Beckett
SCD
?
?
<< <i>According to the article:
<< <i>The Web auction house recognizes seven card authenticators, one of which is PSA. >>
Who are the seven grading companies recognized by ebay?
PSA
SGC
GAI
Beckett
SCD
? Pro
? Snaggletooth >>
Jason
Our current ebay auctions, and of course BaseBallCardHeaven.com
there you are
marc in Hawaii
I do have one solution for these guys though: GAI. I'm sure that if they brought the card to this year's National, GAI would love the publicity they could get by offering to authenticate the card. If/when the card is deemed to be a fake, the story ends, and these guys can believe whatever they want to believe. If it's deemed authentic, then GAI will have graded their first T206 Wagner. Win/Win situation for the hobby either way.
<< <i>Couldn't both parties agree to meet at a secure, predetermined site. PSA brings their people, and whatever equipment they need to verify authenticity. Video cameras monitor both the initial handoff and authentication process. Maybe the owner of the purported Wagner card watches from behind a one-way mirror (like they use in focus groups). PSA doesn't have a conflict of interest. And the owner gets the peace of mind he's looking for. I dunno. Just a thought.
I also believe that Joe Orlando should use better tact in his executive position, based upon the type of quotes that were used in the article.
Erik
I mean he spends $1800 on a card then decides to research it?
T206 HOFers in PSA 4
E93 Standard Caramel
EMail Me
My eBay auctions
<< <i>The dudes are in Ohio and the national is going to be in Ohio. All the grading companies will be there so they don't have to fly or mail the card out to nobody. >>
They know about the national, and aren't taking the card because (according to them) all 3 grading companies have told them that if they take the card to be graded, it will be out of their sight for at least a few minutes. And that's just not okay with them.
I looked at the 2002 article that the Cinti Enquirer published about this card. It had a much larger picture, and that picture makes it appear that the card is a reprint. In addition to all the letters being the same size in "PITTSBURG", there is no dark border around the picture portion of the card, and the image is cropped differently than authentic Wagners (i.e., the "G" on his jersey actually touches the border of the image area, and the lowest button on his shirt is too close to the bottomof the image area; both of these could be registration problems, except that the image itself doesn't seem to be off-register).
[Edited to say, Just look at the pic below and judge for yourself.]
A quick glance at the card in the open should be enough to determine real or not, if real, they move on...if not, they leave.
BTW: if it IS real, i'll be happy I have 2 of them - identical features to this card that I bought as "fake" and as a filler for my T206 set.
<< <i>For cards from the 1950s it's hard to predict which primary colors will be used on a particular card. However, with few, if any, exceptions, the half-tone prints from the 1940s and before will use red, blue and yellow, while modern reprints or forgeries will use magenta, cyan and yellow.
In conclusion, if you find that a suspect 1909 color tobacco or candy card uses magenta, cyan and yellow, this is a strong indication that it was printed recently. >>
This is from the Cycleback article and as Morrie had stated, one could check the print with a 100x and look at the color and quality of the dots.
My take is that these guys are not going to be happy with what they are told (unless it agrees with them) no matter who grades the card in front, top, back, behind or under them.
Mike