PCGS "Professional Graders" ?? Ha !!
merz2
Posts: 2,474 ✭
I know that this post may get me banned from these boards,but I must say this.
I am utterly astonished
. See Submittal # 3137311
In my 20 + years of collecting copper coins I've seen many variations of color.While some have looked a little strange I am sure of a few things.
1) Copper coins are an alloy. As such,especially with early coins there is bound to be some slight variations of color due to the mixing of the alloys by the suppliers to the U.S. Mint.Lets face it the U.S. Mint wasn't as paticular as they are today.
2) I haven't met anyone who has successfully enhanced the color of a copper coin by cleaning, dipping or whatever method.
3) Even if this could be done,and that is a big "IF".How could you do it without affecting the Luster ? Answer:You can't. Anyone who has tried has eaten away some or all of the luster.
So if all that I've said is true, How can "Professional Graders" say there is only one "RED" color acceptable ?
Is this the way they are being trained ? I sincerely hope not !
I had another board member post a pic of the 1899 IHC on this forum a while back.At that time some of you questioned the color.I assured you it was the lighting.Some of you questioned weather PCGS would BB it because of color.I said I didn't think with the luster it was possible.Boy was I wrong.
I have requested a Presidential Review.I will say this here and now,if Mr Hall concurs with these BB's it will be the very last dollar PCGS will ever see from me.I know I am a little fish and don't spend a lot of money with them,but it is the only way I have of showing my displeasure.
I am utterly astonished
. See Submittal # 3137311In my 20 + years of collecting copper coins I've seen many variations of color.While some have looked a little strange I am sure of a few things.
1) Copper coins are an alloy. As such,especially with early coins there is bound to be some slight variations of color due to the mixing of the alloys by the suppliers to the U.S. Mint.Lets face it the U.S. Mint wasn't as paticular as they are today.
2) I haven't met anyone who has successfully enhanced the color of a copper coin by cleaning, dipping or whatever method.
3) Even if this could be done,and that is a big "IF".How could you do it without affecting the Luster ? Answer:You can't. Anyone who has tried has eaten away some or all of the luster.
So if all that I've said is true, How can "Professional Graders" say there is only one "RED" color acceptable ?
Is this the way they are being trained ? I sincerely hope not !
I had another board member post a pic of the 1899 IHC on this forum a while back.At that time some of you questioned the color.I assured you it was the lighting.Some of you questioned weather PCGS would BB it because of color.I said I didn't think with the luster it was possible.Boy was I wrong.
I have requested a Presidential Review.I will say this here and now,if Mr Hall concurs with these BB's it will be the very last dollar PCGS will ever see from me.I know I am a little fish and don't spend a lot of money with them,but it is the only way I have of showing my displeasure.
Don
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
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Comments
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just proves the point they stab at grades, no real standard involved..its all fueled by Cash..
thats why Ive stopped submitting and have no plans on renewing the privlage to do so, I am quite enamored by anacs and will be seeking them from here on out.
I think however the mailer i got today in regards to david teaching how to clean coins is hilarious.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
I am always amused how people expect a human process to yield perfect results 100% of the time. Second, who cares what PCGS says, it's still the same coin.
LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY COUNTRY GRADE
1 21573340 1909 VDB 1C USA Artificial Color
1 21573341 1909 VDB 1C USA Artificial Color
2 21573342 1910 1C USA Artificial Color
3 21573343 1899 1C USA Artificial Color
4 21573344 1950 1C USA PR64RD
youch!
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Russ, NCNE
Unfortunately, the market does not think it's the same coin, and that can be a significant issue for someone who wants to sell. Plus, I imagine it's pretty irritating to spend money and time to have someone tell you there's something wrong with your coin, when you firmly believe it's a quality piece...
<< <i>Damn, that is a brutal submission. My sympathies.
Russ, NCNE >>
what Russel said... ouch!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Eisenhower Dollar, BU
Set Incomplete:
Roosevelt Dime
1900 - Current Type, No Gold
Silver Eagle
Thread
<< <i>2) I haven't met anyone who has successfully enhanced the color of a copper coin by cleaning, dipping or whatever method.3) Even if this could be done,and that is a big "IF".How could you do it without affecting the Luster ? Answer:You can't. Anyone who has tried has eaten away some or all of the luster. >>
Sorry Don, I believe that you are sorely mistaken. It IS done and it doesn't always noticeably affect the luster, if at all. I think it is a mistake to presume that PCGS (though they are certainly not perfect) was wrong.
Tom
I want to meet the person that can inhance the color,without disturbing the luster.I want to shake his hand.
Tom
I have to agree with you.I think they are siding with caution,but this doesn't make it right.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
You know you and I are friends and I love you like a brother. Saying that, I am sorry the coins were bagged! To soften your hardship on these coins, I am going to offer you a tidy sum of.....say.....
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$20 for all of them. You have my shipping address. Thanks! Mike
Since PCGS graders use Frankies as the reference set for grading everything, it's no wonder they get copper color wrong so frequently. I was dead set against certifying graders, your post has convinced me to change my mind. It would be a good idea to have a large copper grading set, for all 3rd party grading companies. If they don't have a grading set that meets the standard set forth by a select group of copper collectors, I'd require copper graders to take a copper color class every couple years.
perfectstrike
patiently waiting for them to butcher my copper submission too
There is a ligth test that you can do under 100x and 200x scope, it has a fail rate of 8% (8 coins will fail if all 100 coins are AT) (out off 100 tested)we use it to test tool marks for age of mark made(from 3 weeks to half year and on ) and it stands up in US court, I have played around with testing coins for years to see the fail rate on types of coins, and the INC comes under high copper trace and is smiple to test.
Try and take a photo of the coin under green/white ligth (60Wt green globe and 30Wt White globe) and post it, I will run it under my scanner software and see if something stands out, this test has a high fail rate but gives you a good base to see if more testing is needed
To take a good photo, Place the coin careful on a white background, setup the green and white ligths close and try to get it so there is no cast shadows showing on the high point of the coin, what happens is that (Ox)Tone that happens with any ore ages with time, so a coin of that age 100 Years plus should have a 6 scale level (Tone on top of tone)the green ligth with white ligth will show up this but you need the software to blow up the photo to pixels, the pixels tell you a good age of tone.
Sorry for confuseing anyone, Just new and like to help out, all for free too
Grant
Free Trial
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
You raw guys crack me up. Stop buying raw coins already.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39457&item=3912769256
But not yours?!
peacockcoins
Have them shipped back yet? If not, contact HRH and see if you can get it reviewed.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
TextHard to tell from the photos, but I find it hard to believe that a copper coin 105 years old could be this bright. Like tonelover, I also suspect it may body-bag @ PCGS. Hope not tho'; it certainly is pretty.
I still feel that way; but I feel for you with the hard-earned cash you laid out for nothing on this submission.
Do you have pic's of your BB's Don?
If they look like the coin mentioned above, they'll bag.
I'll check the thread for pic's.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
<< <i>I haven't met anyone who has successfully enhanced the color of a copper coin by cleaning, dipping or whatever method. >>
you need to meet more people!
<< <i>This is the 1899 IHC Don is referring to. There is absolutely nothing artificial about the color! Nothing! >>
check the edge of the coin. if it is as pink as the obv. & rev. look then the coin's been dipped. it looks like an xlnt coin in the digi-pic, but 1. we can't see the edge & 2. the color on my monitor might be way different than in-hand. is there residue on the coin that we can't see???
<< <i>1 21573340 1909 VDB 1C USA Artificial Color
1 21573341 1909 VDB 1C USA Artificial Color
2 21573342 1910 1C USA Artificial Color >>
why are you wasting $$$ on slabing coins like this? buy more coins instead!
<< <i>Don, PCGS likes this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39457&item=3912769256 But not yours?! >>
that thing's disgusting!
K S
Dorkarl's post was also instructive. Shows that when discusions are thoughtful and not contentious they are appreciated.
I have met highly regarded and well paid conservers of copper coins. Much can be done by the professionals. When it is acceptable and when unacceptable is a topic for a different thread.
Don,
A couple of comments.
First, there was a time, actually not too long ago, that I thought it was next to impossible to mess with the color and luster on a Lincoln. I have come to learn that is just not the case. I don't know who these people are or how they do it, but I am fairly convinced that it is being done.
Second, PCGS is just sometimes so off the mark that it is scary. They are so nervous about copper that the slightest question and the coin gets BB'd. Not sure that much can be done about it, however.
Not much can be done about the second point, but my first point is really concerning to me. I don't like this "conservation" trend that is going on. I think it allows enough wiggle room for those that are maliciously messing with coins to have the simple defense of "conservation". All the dipping and artificial coloring that is going on is putting the hobby on a very slippery slope in my opinion.
Jack
P.S. Sorry about your results, I'd be livid.
I haven’t seen your coin so I’m not going to offer an opinion. I cannot judge coins from pictures, it is impossible for copper alloy coins. Very sorry about the BBs.
Several observations and I am only talking Indian and Flying Eagle Cents, which I have some limited knowledge of.
The coin doctors can do just about anything. I suspect a few are doctor are making limited quantities of Red and getting them slabbed, but my guess is very few.
The grading services are paranoid about copper. I recently had a 1867/67 Brown come back “improperly cleaned”. I have always said “if you don’t know the history you don’t know the coin”. When I used to post often on this forum I took a lot of flack for that statement, but I stick by it. I suspect the 1867/67 was BB’ed because of the strong clash marks and rough surface area appearance that is common on this variety which gives the coin a “strange” look. This was an AU cent with a perfect patina. The graders got it wrong. I know because with this coin I know the history. The graders were just not aware of this characteristic of the 1867/67 IHC.
I usually check coins under 20X – 40X to look for tinkering, including the smoothing out of scratches and nicks – I find this often on Flying Eagle Cents, yes OFTEN, even on PCGS, NGC and ANACS certified coins. Doctors/mechanics use micro-tools and smooth out scratches and the like. I believe it is a common practice.
We are (many of us) becoming paranoid and a little crazy over the color issue of copper, and the grading services are reacting by rejecting anything that doesn’t look right, except those few examples where junk has been slabbed – we’ve all seen this. With 100’s of thousands of coins being slabbed, there will be some major mistakes.
To conclude, I pretty much trust the grading services for authentication. Color is a crap shoot on many coins. Collectors and the services are placing too much emphasis on color and tightening standards because of market pressures with the prices being paid for RED.
Predictions:
More counterfeit from China and the rest of the far east, and the former Soviet Union
Better and better coin doctor/mechanic work
Increased paranoia over color on copper
My bottom line, if you don’t know the history, you don’t know the coin – period.
Thank you for your attention.
<< <i>My bottom line, if you don’t know the history, you don’t know the coin – period. >>
And, if you don't know copper, you shouldn't be offering "opinions" for money.
Frankly, it's time for the TPGs to employ 'classics specialists'.... period.
If this green/white light test is verifiable, then someone (that would be PCGS etal.) better get on board with some objective scientific testing.
it's a 100% true story
granted, not a hugely expensive coin, but i know he makes $$$ this way. if someone can do that to a totally stripped cent, then ANYTHING is possible w/ copper.
but most everyone already knows this.
K S
That coin would be most apparent to many people if put side by side with an orignal red coin, you would then se what I mean.
dragon
I looked at these four coins yesterday and to me, and every grader in the room at that time, they were obvious "pumpkins." But that's just our opinion.
David Hall
PS...Merz, you'll never get banned for disagreeing with PCGS grading.
<< <i>pumpkins >>
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09/07/2006
Cameron Kiefer