Old Japanese coin question

This is a Japanese 4 mon type 2 (I think) 11 waves from 1769 (possibly). I'm still learning about Japanese coins, so I am probably off on the date. It could be 1800's.

I got this in a lot of 170 old Japanese coins from......you know where....and I have started going thru them to try to ID them. Even got one of those old Oval coins which is really cool. I'll try to add that picture just for fun soon.

I noticed this one might have some obvious doubling or rotated die or some definition of error on the back. I'm not sure how Japanese coins were minted back then, but see the pictures and if you can give any comment, I'd appreciate it. Also, if anyone knows about how common or uncommon it is to have old Japanese coins with doubling or rotated die or whatever, please include what information you know about that too. image

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Comments

  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭
    This is a question I have as well. I think these coins were cast and not struck. However, if that is the case, I do not know how they come to have this sort of doubling. I have some Korean cash coins with the same doubling. If this is not possible through the casting process, could they be struck counterfeits?

    I don't know.


    And, I am so jealous that you have a bag of these puppies to look through!
  • Yeah, 170 coins to look thru. why dont you come over and we'll have coffee and sort thru them. image

    I thought they were cast also. I know they did cast coins for a long time, and that would prevent, I would imagine, this "doubling". I'm very curious as to how this could happen and if it's common.

    If it's counterfeit...it's an old counterfeit and not something done recently. the state of the coin tells me it's not new, and looking under my loop...I can see obverse "errors" too. Like the mold or die was pretty worn out. The characters are pretty sharp on the obverse...i should add that too.....
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭
    Coffee and coins? Great! I'm there!

    It might be the case that if the molds were opened prematurely while the metal was still soft and then closed again there might be some doubling this is purely my guess. I think there are those here who know about this than I do.
  • Every authority I have read on cash coins says they were cast. Of course there are not many books on the subject in English, and the Beautiful Bride balks at any requests for lengthy translations, so there may be some contrary authority that I don't know about in Chinese, Korean or Japanese. image

    There are drawings showing the casting "tree" in the Jacobs & Vermeule Japanese Coinage book. The basic process involved carving "seed" coins, then making sand molds from the seeds, into which molten metal was poured.

    Sumnom's suggestion of a prematurely opened mold makes a lot of sense to me.
    Roy


    image
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭
    There is so much about cast and struck coins in Asian languages. English language sources are few and of very poor quality. I picked up a reprint of a history of Korean coinage a few months ago. It was originally published in the 1920's. It looks great but I have to get the time to read it. It seems like that is the case with most of the bboks I buy!

  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭
    Some of you may not have been members when i posted this thread so I provide a link here to an interesting account of the porduction of Korean cast coins:


    linky linky
  • AskariAskari Posts: 4,883
    I think Sumnom may have the right of it. The focus was on mass production, not so much quality.
    Askari



    Come on over ... to The Dark Side! image
  • Sounds like some good information and a distinct possibility on errors from casting. I didnt think about the mold being open too soon which could result in the doubling.

    so books in English are hard to get....satootoko...sounds like there might be some good $$ in translation. image Tell the beautiful bride it's good for her pocket book if you were to do so. image
  • Conder101Conder101 Posts: 10,639
    I think you will find that the metal will set up way too fast for opening and closing the mold to create doubling.
    slab collector and researcher
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  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭
    The metal would set almost instantaneously?


    If the doubling were not caused by my theory, could there be another explanation?
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭

    I know this thread is 14 years old but it is interesting, no? TTT!

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