Bottom line is if you like the cards and are truly a collector, not trying to make money, the grade is nice, but not the most important thing.
The ol mantra buy the card not the holder always applies to me. I like a higher grade as well as the next guy, but here is a PSA 2 that looks way better on the front (back damage on the back) than many that have a higher grade.
Just my thoughts
Dave
Dave Johnson- Big Red Country-Nebraska Collector of Vintage Golf cards! Let me know what you might have.
The card looks great! But you think PSA could've fit it in a nicer insert for you! I wish they would be more diligent about fitting the cards and inserts better... that mylar really takes away from the card!
i have been collecting since 1977 and this is one of the most unethical hobbies that exists. the hobby has had card doctors, card trimmers,liars and thieves since day one. grading makes it no better. now you just have doctored cards and trimmed cards in holders that make the liars and thieves more money. i have bought and more than likely sold trimmed and doctored cards, not intentionally but none the less. we have all been to card shows over the years and bought sets or cards from dealers and never saw them again or remember their name 5 years later and then passed the cards to another person. it is easy to get on a soap box and act like this is the first time it has happened, it is just the first time you have heard people admit it. in over 25 years i have seen every underhanded trick and deception you can think of and some you couldn't. i even know of one dentist that used an x-ray machine to look for holograms (when they were high dollar) and the people with scales weighing packs looking for inserts. even (the funniest one to me) was a dealer buying cases of cards and using a metal dectector to find the gold foil cards. to see 720 packs of cards laid out was amazing.
it has happened. it will continue to happen. as long as the all mighty dollar is involved, favors will be done. things will be overlooked and the innocent will be the one that is taken advantage of.
I've been trying to figure out the few pivotal moments in sales history that has led us to these pathetic times.
1. Neandethal sells rocks covered with dry ice as glowing embers.
2. Judas and Jesus stage phony crucifixion to improve sagging cross sales.
3. Battle of Hasting goes under the battle death toll line in 1066. Orchestrated by Don King Charlemagne.
4. Black and white television sets are sold to colorblind at Best Buy (1952).
5. Turtle Wax exposed in 2011. It's not really made of turtles.
6. Indians rip off dutch settlers by charging outrageous sum of 24 dollars in trinkets for lousy island without disclosing it is prone to terrorist attacks.
7. Boston Tea Party concocted by Liptons' to put competitors out of business.
8. Moses makes up burning bush story to cover extra-marital sex in the mountains.
9. People buy into screwball notion of paying huge dollars for education when the books are free at the library.
10. Jonas Salk's third cousing secretly creates Polio so Salk can sell vaccine.
11. Women make up the female orgasm to ruin sex for all men. Curiously, baseball cards and golf show up the same year. Coincidence?
12. Muffins made by English guy, Thomas, become all the rage due to his cute little accent.
13. Bartman along with 40,000 other fans employed by auction houses, fill seats in an effort to touch important foul balls.
Your writing is non-pareil! You should have a job writing for SNL, or Conan, or Leno, or Letterman. Do you have a job writing for SNL, or Conan, or Leno, or Letterman?
Please stop posting for a few days until my wife does the laundry. I have no more clean underwear! And if I do this in the nude, she'll get the wrong idea and leave me!
<< <i>i have been collecting since 1977 and this is one of the most unethical hobbies that exists. >>
Somewhat agreed. I'm more dissatisfied with the nature of this business, rather than believe it's littered with dishonest people. Some rhetoric that's getting old:
Card show dealers line about overhead, table fees, etc. to justify a 30%-to-book offer price.
Sell to a dealer, I must send the card first. Buy from the dealer, I have to send money first. The criteria to be considered a dealer: call yourself a dealer.
Hype that runs up prices. Don't give me the stock market analogy, it's far from the same.
Rarity that isn't.
“Should be a PSA….” Oh yeah, than why isn’t it?
The value – not collectibles – of modern cards. Discussed ad nauseum...)
Card investment talk usually centers on price, not what's behind the card. This is analogous to stock day traders, who know all about the price points of a stock, but very little about the company, it's financials, etc. We call those “investors” suckers.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin
I've never written for any of those shows. I took the easy route right off the bat and did network television. The money was much better. However, I would have enjoyed the chance to be a little edgier. Sadly, television comedy is not about being funny. It's 98 percent political and 2% gettting lucky. It's the same as any other business. If you kiss your bosses' bottoms, you move up. If you don't, you could be Shakespeare and it wouldn't mean a thing. And, in television, you have like ten bosses so good luck getting along with all of them if you're not a total sycophant. That's why tv is basically unwatchable except for some of the cable shows like Curb Your Enthusiasm and the Sopranos.
I've pretty much been banned by every major network and cable offshoot. If you decide to become a tv writer don't kiss the hot female executives with tongue as a joke. Also, don't call executives names, tell other writers they couldn't write for Captain Kangaroo or go on set with your shirt off for laughs. It's a good idea to show up on work days or at least call in with some made up ailment. Don't tell fat star actresses that they should stop eating or they might "really crack the boards". Don't laugh when Damon Wayans goes on about his acting chops. Don't impregnate the writers' assistants because it's a long year after the abortion. Try to remember the name of the show you are working on in case the head writer asks you. Also, learn the characters' names so you don't substitute Seinfeld names in the scripts you write for Clueless. Don't share your valium with the lead actor because he or she will eventually demand your whole stash. And, remember, if you show any talent at all, you will be universally hated.
<< i have been collecting since 1977 and this is one of the most unethical hobbies that exists. >>
Yeah, the card hobby is getting pretty trashy. I think I'm going to start buying mail order 3x5 index card autographs, or maybe start buying trinkets once owned by famous celebrities or no better yet, I think I'll just devote my time and money helping out Nigerian businessmen with their startup companies.
I think in general, this is an honest and ethical hobby...do we have crooks in the hobby: yes, but, crooks as exists in other hobbies as well, stamp and coin collecting to name a few.
A few dishonest people shouldn't curb one's enthusiasm from sportscard collecting or any other type of hobby.
GRILLO - Well put! Any industry that is thriving has dishonest people trying to grab a slice of the pie. There are unscrupulous people in coins, stamps, comics, autographs etc... We just notice the scum that infect are hobby. Thats why its important to use a top tier grading company and to deal w/ sellers that you trust...jay
CON40 - you get a laptop with wireless internet access and read the boards only while in bed. That way, it won't matter much to your wife if you read in the nude (at least until she changes the bedding).
What is your ethical stance on the average Joe who polishes the scratches out of his car in order to restore it to its original sheen and polished look? UNETHICAL or ETHICAL?????
Or, how about the Joe who has the dent in the fender repaired and doesn't tell the new buyer? ETHICAL or UNETHICAL???
What do your ethics tell you about the practice of taking the Mona Lisa or a Picasso lithograph for restoration after the years have caused the paint to crack and the surface to become faded and grimey? ETHICAL or UNETHICAL???
It is nonsense to expect that just because a card has been graded and certified to be in gem mint condition that it will stay that way forever. Is there any parallel to that kind of expectation?
It is nonsense from he who say that he is only buying the card purely for its aesthetics. If that were the case he would be buying reprints and saving a ton of money while satisfying his aesthetical jones. Would he pay $95,000.00 for the PSA 1 Honus Wagner because it is aesthetically pleasing, only? I don't think so! We buy for a varied number of reasons but not for aesthetics only. We buy so that we can turn a profit in a few years. We buy so that we can have the unique feeling that no one, or few others, have what we have. And, we do buy for aesthetics, too, but only in conjunction with one of the other reasons above, etc.; in case our ego has the need to be frequently massaged and/or for the cash, just in case....
We could care less if the card was doctored and restored to its original condition, as long as no one else could tell. Think about this, truthfully, if you can: Would you pay $100,000 for a counterfeit PSA 10 Honus Wagner, T-206 (the only one in existence) if you knew no one could tell the difference? If you are the one in a million who answered "No", I would like to know your reasons. AND, would you feel the same way if part of the deal was that you were prohibited from ever selling it?
So what's my point? SIMPLY, it is, "If it weren't for the $$$$ considerations, we could care less."
Yah, that means you, too.
Yours truly,
NINESnTENS
NINESnTENS: Specializing in Panini mint-gem mint quality sportscards/stickers. The largest Panini inventory anywhere. If we can't get it, it doesn't exist.
Some interesting use of logic. I think there's a great distinction between preserving the value of a tangible utility - car, house, stereo, etc. - and a collectible. It's also about standard acceptable practices: repainting a classic automobile is acceptable, while non-stock parts are debatable. The current allure of vintage cards is to have them in the condition that most closely resembles when they were distributed, i.e., untouched. One day, permanent encapsulation might be the rage.
The Mona Lisa, Sistine Chapel, etc. are one-of-a-kind "world treasures" restored by unquestioned and crosschecked third parties. The restoration in question centers on John Doe with an eyedropper, or third party grading companies run by multiple John Doe's. To many collectors, it's the collectible - not the value - that's most important. There's a large segment who's concern is filling sets regardless of condition, and boards that swap cards for free! If I built a '33 Goudey set card-by-card and only needed the Lajoie, I would NOT be satisfied if I filled that void with a reprint even though I was guaranteed that no one would ever be the wiser.
Lastly, never assume that a high percentage of people would take the un-unethical route even if there were a guarantee of not getting caught. A previous post assumed that everyone would purchase a lot of cards worth $5000 for $5 at a garage sale, although many would, you'd be surprised how many would not.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin
What is your ethical stance on the average Joe who polishes the scratches out of his car in order to restore it to its original sheen and polished look? UNETHICAL or ETHICAL????? Or, how about the Joe who has the dent in the fender repaired and doesn't tell the new buyer? ETHICAL or UNETHICAL??? What do your ethics tell you about the practice of taking the Mona Lisa or a Picasso lithograph for restoration after the years have caused the paint to crack and the surface to become faded and grimey? ETHICAL or UNETHICAL???
You are trying to compare apples and oranges... I won't even comment on the Mona Lisa and Sistine Chapel as these are one-of-a-kind cultural icons... preserving them through restoration is the only means of keeping them!
Now, as far as ethics in autos goes, buffing dents and scratches out of a Chevy Vega is hardly comparable. But, what if someone were restoring GTOs and filing off and forging serial numbers to make a complete matching number auto? Now would that be ethical? Answer that question and you're starting to draw a fair comparison to card doctoring. Both are shadowy methods of deceiving the buyer in order to realize more profit. And you can't defend that under any circumstance. Period.
Doctored cards are unacceptable. That is the nature of this hobby.
When cards are in PRO holders, they are valueless because they are assumed to be trimmed or altered. Sellers of PRO cards are stigmatized as sellers of trimmed cards. I don't think many will dispute that PRO and PRO dealers are bad.
Now we have legitimate collectors and major dealers doing the same exact thing. The only difference is that the work is good enough to pass into PSA and SGC holders instead of PRO holders.
Is this ethical? MW may think that it is OK, but the majority of collectors who responded to this thread seem to think that it is not ethical.
Well, I went to the PSA show today and just got home. My first stop was the PSA grading table. Joe O usually does not make this trip, but Matt is a regular there, so I talked to him. I told him about the dampen/press process for getting out minor wrinkles on card backs, and showed him my examples. His answer was that PSA's position is clear. IF IT GRADES, THEY STAND BEHIND THE CARD.
The next booth over is the GAI grading booth, so I decided to talk to Mike Baker, one of the original graders at PSA. He basically said the same thing. Mike, if you read this, forgive me for paraphrasing your answer: If they find any slight indentations (due to too much pressure with a spoon or other object), or paper defects (thinner than normal card or minor water damage), or other defects which can be picked up during their inspection process (tilting the card into a bright light source usually does it) they will downgrade the card. If the process is done correctly (only on the card back) with minimal distilled water (the slightest wrinkle doesn't even need the aid of water to soften the cardboard) and the absolute correct pressure (too much will depress the cardboard, too little will not effect the wrinkle), then there is no way to detect the procedure.
I followed up with the question about reappearing wrinkles, and he said that any reputable grading co. would make good on any graded card as long as slab is intact.
He believes, as I do, that most collectors live under the idealized and hopeful, yet delusional belief that all higher-grade cards are in their virgin, out-of-the-cutting-room-into-the-wax-pack state. In truth, the grade that is given to any card is the grading company's best analysis of the condition of the card as they see it. And that is what they stake their reputation on.
So, in conclusion, we are talking about ethics here. If I had been discreet about my process and my acquiring of wrinkled cards, there would have been no discussion. I feel I have been upfront, and have not tried to defraud anyone. I cannot speak for anyone else. The only one defrauded here is the grader(s) who could not or cannot detect this process.
The only one defrauded here is the grader(s) who could not or cannot detect this process.
Your last statement is rather revealing. So it's OK just as long as it gets past a grader?
I've refrained from chiming in, but if indeed PSA's and GAI's thoughts are as Scoop reported them to be, I guess that makes anything fair game, as long as it's deemed "undetectable" on a certain day to a certain grader. That's one hell of a slippery slope. I can't believe that that was OK'd. But hell, nothing really surprises me anymore. Pass me a beer and a BGS 10 Prior Rookie.
The only one defrauded here is the grader(s) who could not or cannot detect this process.
Jim;
I appreciate your candor about how you "improve" your cards... and thanks for following up with PSA and GAI... I have to say I am disappointed by their lack of conviction in their opinions... but is what you are saying analgous to saying it's ok to cheat on a test as long as you don't get caught? That it's all about the "grade" and how you obtained it has no bearing.
<< <i>So, in conclusion, we are talking about ethics here >>
EDITED:
Considering all of the $$$ involved with high-end graded cards....nothing surprises me anymore.
<< <i>If I had been discreet about my process and my acquiring of wrinkled cards, there would have been no discussion. >>
Its not that you were being upfront, as much as, another board member calling you out by posting statements that you made back in 2001 regarding the pressing of 1956 cards....
<< <i>Only one defrauded here is the grader(s) who could not or cannot detect this process. >>
I would also add to the defrauded list...the collector who buys a card with the liablity that the creases could reappear years later.
BTW..I spoke with Joe ORlando via email on Thursday..and he said he was going to the Fort. Maybe he changed his mind last minute.
Joe was at the Fort, and I sat down & spoke to him in the PSA compound about this issue and other matters, and he said they are doing the best they can to detect altered cards. Which is what I figured he would say, he didn't have his head buried in the sand and state they never occur. Scoop even stated a few messages ago that both PA & GAI stand behind whats in their slabs, so that is reassuring. In fact I met Aconte at the show and he had a couple of Red Man PSA-7's w/ faint wrinkles on the reverse. He had to point them out to me at the food court. He said he showed them to Joe and was happy in his settlement, and content that they took care of the situation...jay
<< <i>In fact I met Aconte at the show and he had a couple of Red Man PSA-7's w/ faint wrinkles on the reverse. He had to point them out to me at the food court. He said he showed them to Joe and was happy in his settlement, and content that they took care of the situation...jay >>
Joe was more than helpful. I am very grateful and happy that he could help!
Jay, I was there on Saturday between 1 and 3, sorry I missed you, Tony, and Joe O.
Understand this....call it cheating, doctoring, tampering , restoring or whatever, it is happening. There are cards out there that are in slabs that have been 'improved'. In an ideal world these cards would all be detectable. I would even favor a new qualifier (PW - pressed wrinkle), which would mitigate some of the profit motive.
Sure money is the issue, but not necessarily profit. I was able to buy a card for pennies on the dollar for my collection, and took a chance that PSA would agree. Even if they didn't and were able to detect the wrinkles after they were 'fixed', I would still have a very nice card for a fraction of its cost.
The argument here has been what is acceptable to us as collectors. Some, including me originally, have seen this as a gray area as I believe nothing is added or detracted to or from the card; others are staunchly behind the notion that the card must be 'untouched' and left in the condition it left the Topps factory. I don't think any third party grader or convincing argument will ever change anyone's position.
TONY - I didn't mean to tell your tale, just replied to the question is Joe was at the Fort, and that they do have customer service in place regarding problem cards in their slabs. Glad the deal was to your satidfaction. It was good to meet you.
SCOOP - I was only there from 1:30 dealer setup to 8:00 on Friday...jay
I did not buy much. Just one card - an autographed 64 Topps Giants of Johnny Callison. The card is nice and will go nicely with my autographed Jim Bunning 64 Topps Giants. I usually don't buy autographs. I picked it up from the Philadelphia A's Society who I don't mind supporting. They are a nice group!
Also, spent a lot of time talking with Marty of "AllMartysStuff" or something like that. He had some great regional stuff. The Hires cards were sweet.
Comments
The ol mantra buy the card not the holder always applies to me. I like a higher grade as well as the next guy, but here is a PSA 2 that looks way better on the front (back damage on the back) than many that have a higher grade.
Just my thoughts
Dave
Collector of Vintage Golf cards! Let me know what you might have.
The card looks great! But you think PSA could've fit it in a nicer insert for you! I wish they would be more diligent about fitting the cards and inserts better... that mylar really takes away from the card!
it has happened. it will continue to happen. as long as the all mighty dollar is involved, favors will be done. things will be overlooked and the innocent will be the one that is taken advantage of.
.........fab4.........
1. Neandethal sells rocks covered with dry ice as glowing embers.
2. Judas and Jesus stage phony crucifixion to improve sagging cross sales.
3. Battle of Hasting goes under the battle death toll line in 1066. Orchestrated by Don King Charlemagne.
4. Black and white television sets are sold to colorblind at Best Buy (1952).
5. Turtle Wax exposed in 2011. It's not really made of turtles.
6. Indians rip off dutch settlers by charging outrageous sum of 24 dollars in trinkets for lousy island without disclosing it is prone to terrorist attacks.
7. Boston Tea Party concocted by Liptons' to put competitors out of business.
8. Moses makes up burning bush story to cover extra-marital sex in the mountains.
9. People buy into screwball notion of paying huge dollars for education when the books are free at the library.
10. Jonas Salk's third cousing secretly creates Polio so Salk can sell vaccine.
11. Women make up the female orgasm to ruin sex for all men. Curiously, baseball cards and golf show up the same year. Coincidence?
12. Muffins made by English guy, Thomas, become all the rage due to his cute little accent.
13. Bartman along with 40,000 other fans employed by auction houses, fill seats in an effort to touch important foul balls.
I think all this card doctoring was inevitable.
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
Your writing is non-pareil! You should have a job writing for SNL, or Conan, or Leno, or Letterman. Do you have a job writing for SNL, or Conan, or Leno, or Letterman?
Please stop posting for a few days until my wife does the laundry. I have no more clean underwear! And if I do this in the nude, she'll get the wrong idea and leave me!
<< <i>And if I do this in the nude, she'll get the wrong idea and leave me! >>
KEITH - So will we!!!
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
<< <i>And if I do this in the nude, >>
i have no doubt you are a heck if a guy but i know am not speaking for myself when i say, enough of the visuals.
<< <i>i have been collecting since 1977 and this is one of the most unethical hobbies that exists. >>
Somewhat agreed. I'm more dissatisfied with the nature of this business, rather than believe it's littered with dishonest people. Some rhetoric that's getting old:
Card show dealers line about overhead, table fees, etc. to justify a 30%-to-book offer price.
Sell to a dealer, I must send the card first. Buy from the dealer, I have to send money first. The criteria to be considered a dealer: call yourself a dealer.
Hype that runs up prices. Don't give me the stock market analogy, it's far from the same.
Rarity that isn't.
“Should be a PSA….” Oh yeah, than why isn’t it?
The value – not collectibles – of modern cards. Discussed ad nauseum...)
Card investment talk usually centers on price, not what's behind the card. This is analogous to stock day traders, who know all about the price points of a stock, but very little about the company, it's financials, etc. We call those “investors” suckers.
Scumbi,
" Whos line is it anyway ?" is pretty good.
I think that is the name of the show.
Vic
Scumbi-
You should send some stuff to Comedy Central...you would be a nice fit with the RENO 911 team.
its on SPIKE tv ...
Groucho Marx
Yeah, the card hobby is getting pretty trashy. I think I'm going to start buying mail order 3x5 index card autographs, or maybe start buying trinkets once owned by famous celebrities or no better yet, I think I'll just devote my time and money helping out Nigerian businessmen with their startup companies.
A few dishonest people shouldn't curb one's enthusiasm from sportscard collecting or any other type of hobby.
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
Any industry that is thriving has dishonest people trying to grab a slice of the pie. There are unscrupulous people in coins, stamps, comics, autographs etc... We just notice the scum that infect are hobby. Thats why its important to use a top tier grading company and to deal w/ sellers that you trust...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
Sell a Ryan card because I need one of life's necessities??!!
I'd rather go commando any day of the week!
OK, here goes:
Scumbi - you keep posting.
CON40 - you get a laptop with wireless internet access and read the boards only while in bed. That way, it won't matter much to your wife if you read in the nude (at least until she changes the bedding).
Do we have a deal?
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
What is your ethical stance on the average Joe who polishes the scratches out of his car in order to restore it to its original sheen and polished look? UNETHICAL or ETHICAL?????
Or, how about the Joe who has the dent in the fender repaired and doesn't tell the new buyer? ETHICAL or UNETHICAL???
What do your ethics tell you about the practice of taking the Mona Lisa or a Picasso lithograph for restoration after the years have caused the paint to crack and the surface to become faded and grimey?
ETHICAL or UNETHICAL???
It is nonsense to expect that just because a card has been graded and certified to be in gem mint condition that it will stay that way forever. Is there any parallel to that kind of expectation?
It is nonsense from he who say that he is only buying the card purely for its aesthetics. If that were the case he would be buying reprints and saving a ton of money while satisfying his aesthetical jones. Would he pay $95,000.00 for the PSA 1 Honus Wagner because it is aesthetically pleasing, only? I don't think so! We buy for a varied number of reasons but not for aesthetics only. We buy so that we can turn a profit in a few years. We buy so that we can have the unique feeling that no one, or few others, have what we have. And, we do buy for aesthetics, too, but only in conjunction with one of the other reasons above, etc.; in case our ego has the need to be frequently massaged and/or for the cash, just in case....
We could care less if the card was doctored and restored to its original condition, as long as no one else could tell. Think about this, truthfully, if you can: Would you pay $100,000 for a counterfeit PSA 10 Honus Wagner, T-206 (the only one in existence) if you knew no one could tell the difference? If you are the one in a million who answered "No", I would like to know your reasons. AND, would you feel the same way if part of the deal was that you were prohibited from ever selling it?
So what's my point? SIMPLY, it is, "If it weren't for the $$$$ considerations, we could care less."
Yah, that means you, too.
NINESnTENS
NINESnTENS: Specializing in Panini mint-gem mint quality sportscards/stickers. The largest Panini inventory anywhere. If we can't get it, it doesn't exist.
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
The Mona Lisa, Sistine Chapel, etc. are one-of-a-kind "world treasures" restored by unquestioned and crosschecked third parties. The restoration in question centers on John Doe with an eyedropper, or third party grading companies run by multiple John Doe's. To many collectors, it's the collectible - not the value - that's most important. There's a large segment who's concern is filling sets regardless of condition, and boards that swap cards for free! If I built a '33 Goudey set card-by-card and only needed the Lajoie, I would NOT be satisfied if I filled that void with a reprint even though I was guaranteed that no one would ever be the wiser.
Lastly, never assume that a high percentage of people would take the un-unethical route even if there were a guarantee of not getting caught. A previous post assumed that everyone would purchase a lot of cards worth $5000 for $5 at a garage sale, although many would, you'd be surprised how many would not.
Or, how about the Joe who has the dent in the fender repaired and doesn't tell the new buyer? ETHICAL or UNETHICAL???
What do your ethics tell you about the practice of taking the Mona Lisa or a Picasso lithograph for restoration after the years have caused the paint to crack and the surface to become faded and grimey?
ETHICAL or UNETHICAL???
You are trying to compare apples and oranges... I won't even comment on the Mona Lisa and Sistine Chapel as these are one-of-a-kind cultural icons... preserving them through restoration is the only means of keeping them!
Now, as far as ethics in autos goes, buffing dents and scratches out of a Chevy Vega is hardly comparable. But, what if someone were restoring GTOs and filing off and forging serial numbers to make a complete matching number auto? Now would that be ethical? Answer that question and you're starting to draw a fair comparison to card doctoring. Both are shadowy methods of deceiving the buyer in order to realize more profit. And you can't defend that under any circumstance. Period.
When cards are in PRO holders, they are valueless because they are assumed to be trimmed or altered. Sellers of PRO cards are stigmatized as sellers of trimmed cards. I don't think many will dispute that PRO and PRO dealers are bad.
Now we have legitimate collectors and major dealers doing the same exact thing. The only difference is that the work is good enough to pass into PSA and SGC holders instead of PRO holders.
Is this ethical? MW may think that it is OK, but the majority of collectors who responded to this thread seem to think that it is not ethical.
The next booth over is the GAI grading booth, so I decided to talk to Mike Baker, one of the original graders at PSA. He basically said the same thing. Mike, if you read this, forgive me for paraphrasing your answer: If they find any slight indentations (due to too much pressure with a spoon or other object), or paper defects (thinner than normal card or minor water damage), or other defects which can be picked up during their inspection process (tilting the card into a bright light source usually does it) they will downgrade the card. If the process is done correctly (only on the card back) with minimal distilled water (the slightest wrinkle doesn't even need the aid of water to soften the cardboard) and the absolute correct pressure (too much will depress the cardboard, too little will not effect the wrinkle), then there is no way to detect the procedure.
I followed up with the question about reappearing wrinkles, and he said that any reputable grading co. would make good on any graded card as long as slab is intact.
He believes, as I do, that most collectors live under the idealized and hopeful, yet delusional belief that all higher-grade cards are in their virgin, out-of-the-cutting-room-into-the-wax-pack state. In truth, the grade that is given to any card is the grading company's best analysis of the condition of the card as they see it. And that is what they stake their reputation on.
So, in conclusion, we are talking about ethics here. If I had been discreet about my process and my acquiring of wrinkled cards, there would have been no discussion. I feel I have been upfront, and have not tried to defraud anyone. I cannot speak for anyone else. The only one defrauded here is the grader(s) who could not or cannot detect this process.
JIM
Your last statement is rather revealing. So it's OK just as long as it gets past a grader?
I've refrained from chiming in, but if indeed PSA's and GAI's thoughts are as Scoop reported them to be, I guess that makes anything fair game, as long as it's deemed "undetectable" on a certain day to a certain grader. That's one hell of a slippery slope. I can't believe that that was OK'd. But hell, nothing really surprises me anymore. Pass me a beer and a BGS 10 Prior Rookie.
Jim;
I appreciate your candor about how you "improve" your cards... and thanks for following up with PSA and GAI... I have to say I am disappointed by their lack of conviction in their opinions... but is what you are saying analgous to saying it's ok to cheat on a test as long as you don't get caught? That it's all about the "grade" and how you obtained it has no bearing.
<< <i>So, in conclusion, we are talking about ethics here >>
EDITED:
Considering all of the $$$ involved with high-end graded cards....nothing surprises me anymore.
<< <i>If I had been discreet about my process and my acquiring of wrinkled cards, there would have been no discussion. >>
Its not that you were being upfront, as much as, another board member calling you out by posting statements that you made back in 2001 regarding the pressing of 1956 cards....
<< <i>Only one defrauded here is the grader(s) who could not or cannot detect this process. >>
I would also add to the defrauded list...the collector who buys a card with the liablity that the creases could reappear years later.
BTW..I spoke with Joe ORlando via email on Thursday..and he said he was going to the Fort. Maybe he changed his mind last minute.
Scoop even stated a few messages ago that both PA & GAI stand behind whats in their slabs, so that is reassuring. In fact I met Aconte at the show and he had a couple of Red Man PSA-7's w/ faint wrinkles on the reverse. He had to point them out to me at the food court. He said he showed them to Joe and was happy in his settlement, and content that they took care of the situation...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
Considering all of the $$$ involved with high-end graded cards....nothing surprises me anymore.
<< <i>So, in conclusion, we are talking about ethics here. >>
To hell with ethics. We're talking about making money here
....by hook or by crook.
Considering all of the $$$ involved with high-end graded cards....nothing surprises me anymore.
<< <i>In fact I met Aconte at the show and he had a couple of Red Man PSA-7's w/ faint wrinkles on the reverse. He had to point them out to me at the food court. He said he showed them to Joe and was happy in his settlement, and content that they took care of the situation...jay >>
Joe was more than helpful. I am very grateful and happy that he could help!
aconte
Understand this....call it cheating, doctoring, tampering , restoring or whatever, it is happening. There are cards out there that are in slabs that have been 'improved'. In an ideal world these cards would all be detectable. I would even favor a new qualifier (PW - pressed wrinkle), which would mitigate some of the profit motive.
Sure money is the issue, but not necessarily profit. I was able to buy a card for pennies on the dollar for my collection, and took a chance that PSA would agree. Even if they didn't and were able to detect the wrinkles after they were 'fixed', I would still have a very nice card for a fraction of its cost.
The argument here has been what is acceptable to us as collectors. Some, including me originally, have seen this as a gray area as I believe nothing is added or detracted to or from the card; others are staunchly behind the notion that the card must be 'untouched' and left in the condition it left the Topps factory. I don't think any third party grader or convincing argument will ever change anyone's position.
JIM
SCOOP - I was only there from 1:30 dealer setup to 8:00 on Friday...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
I did not buy much. Just one card - an autographed 64 Topps Giants of Johnny Callison. The card is nice and will go nicely
with my autographed Jim Bunning 64 Topps Giants. I usually don't buy autographs. I picked it up from the Philadelphia A's
Society who I don't mind supporting. They are a nice group!
Also, spent a lot of time talking with Marty of "AllMartysStuff" or something like that. He had some great regional stuff.
The Hires cards were sweet.
aconte