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Fake Gold Bars and COINS!
MrEureka
Posts: 23,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
Check out this new site: How the West was Faked
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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dragon
Great reading.
We ARE watching you.
I am stunned (No kidding!) because when I glance at what is available, it asserts that "The forgers who made and marketed these bars were ... John J. Ford, jr. (1924- ) of Rockville Center, Long Island." I thought Ford was an important figure in numismatics, especially in the 1950s and 1960s. I haven't read the article by Kleeberg yet (it's 96 pages long) but the one shorter article by Buttrey I have read came close to accusing Stacks of being Ford's accomplice.
Now, I know that Buttrey raised this issue a few years back in an article published in an ANS publication. And then Hodder (who Buttrey apparently takes to task in his articles on the web page) rebutted Buttrey's work. And then Kleeberg recently published an article in the Numismatist that was too short to really grasp the thrust of his analysis. I seem to recall that Stacks (and Ford?) filled a lawsuit against Buttrey. Apparently Kleeberg, who now has his law degree, is on Buttrey's side? And apparently the 96 page article is the complete article from which the Numismatist abstracted its story?
I am at work now and so can't read the rest of material, but it does seem incredible...Ford and Stacks seem to be being dragged through the mud, but without reading the material, I have no idea of the strength of the assertions. However, Andy, if you have any details to add, I'd love to hear them. However, if you don't want to post anything, I can understand.
Mark
Excerpt from one of my ....OLD..... CoinNet archived info pieces:
This information is from a mid-1980’s bulletin on Coinnet from TX21. (Don’t even know if they are still around.)
Their Info:
Altered Englehard Bar Test
The following instructions are to test Englehard extruded bars that may have been altered......Four bars have now turned up in this area and this test has been good on all bars.....Test should be used as an indication only!!!
We think this is a good test but have not seen enough bars to say for sure
Take an empty coin tube (the smaller the better) and make sure the lid is tight. Stand the tube on the lid. Balance the bar on top of the tube then strike the bar with a hard object. We have found that hard wood works best and does not dent or damage the bar. The bar should ring. The bad bars thud.
You will need a good ear because some of the Englehard bars do not ring as well as others, but when you hear the bad ones thud you will understand....Some bars ring like a bell. Some sort of ring and the bad ones thud. Also all the bad bars have had the same pattern on the ends.
The pattern is a circular pattern that goes from the top (logo side) to the bottom of the bar.
A similar GOOD pattern goes from one corner to the opposite corner.
Please make note: These are indications only and should be used as such. The only 100% way is to cut the bars in two or ultrasonic test them.
.........................................................................................................
The above is the word for word description that was disseminated on the CoinNet trading network and is the product of a Texas coin dealer who posted it. My only reason for calling attention is for educational purposes only. This was a long time ago and I never got any bad bars so do not know if it is correct or not. The only changes I made were in spelling. As I recall, this information was before Englehard started encasing their bars in plastic. I just don’t remember the date except that it was posted on July 24th of whatever year they printed it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mark - First, all the info you need is at the link provided. Second, the site also discusses fake coins, at least one of which was recently sold at a major auction for over 250K.
Edited to say: Besides, you DID respond!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I cannot believe you guys! Someone tries to sell a whizzed Morgan on eBay and we get 200 replies. This thread gets five. >>
Well there were some problems with your thread.
First, your title was not sensational enough. If you said “Fake gold bards sold on ebay” or “Fake gold bars sold by high end dealers” you would have drawn a larger audience.
Second, it involves an area of collecting that is esoteric to most board members. Next time try something about Franklins or unopened proof sets from the 1970s.
Third it required the reading of a long article with no pictures.
Fourth, none of those ingots or coins were whizzed or AT.
Fifth, there was no link to ebay.
Sixth, there was no mention of grades or how long it took to get them.
Seventh, there were too many Hungarian names. No one can pronounce them. That’s why my grandmother left Hungary. She couldn’t remember anyone’s name.
And you are wrong when you said there were only 5 replies. This one makes 7.
CG
<< <i>Third it required the reading of a long article with no pictures. >>
Calgold has lurched into the truth.
Sorry. I'm new here.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I always was amazed at the prices that Gold Rush ingots brought but I also wondered how anyone could vouch for their authenticity. It just seemed that they would be easy to counterfeit since most are just a cast ingot with words and numbers stamped on them and many are unique.*
CG
*Edited to add: If the article is correct, many are unique because some guy made them up in his garage in Massapequa.
The thinking is that he made unique items so that they couldn't be compared to anything else. So how do you prove them fake?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Even if I had videotape of Ford doing what is claimed, I'm not sure I would release it until he was dead, unless he was about to auction off said gold bars and there was a chance of damage to a third party.......
njcoincrank
Does anyone remeber what bars were melted down for the $20 re-issue?
I have to go back now and read more!!!
While I find this very interesting, I also find it hard to follow and Im not anywhere near an expert or a collector of such peices.
I do however find it extremely funny that auction houses can turn around and sell fakes when supposedly they are experts in all fields or so they claim.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Kahuna - Which "re-issue" are you talking about?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If so, then the bars that were melted were Kellogg bars. Of course, that was long after all this other stuff allegedly happened.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Reply
Andy, could you please provide a link to the whizzed Morgan on eBay? That sounds absolutely fascinating! I have been waiting for a thread like that all day.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
It is at least passingly ironic that the replica $50 gold pieces were made from ingots that we know for a fact were genuine.
Mark
<< <i>John Ford did the historical research and marketed the pieces to gullible collectors, or as Ford always called them, “boobs.” >>
Haha, interesting reading so far.
As a large cent collector, I am still trying to get over the fact that the man whose book started me out on early date large cents, Dr. Sheldon, apparently absconded with a large number of large cents from the ANS Clapp Collection. Now, with the research by Buttrey, the reputation of another numismatic giant, John J. Ford, has been cast into doubt. I am certain that the last word on this subject has not been written yet.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I read the essays. They were stunning in the depths of the accusations. Am I wrong in thinking that Ford and Franklin were essentially accused in all the essays of being counterfeiters but that only Buttrey seemed to suggest that Stack's played a role in the alleged deception?
It would be very interesting to read a rebuttal by Ford and/or Hodder because these essays present (very strongly!) one side of the issue.
Re your comment about the next time these items come up for sale: If the claims made in these essays are shown to be true, do you think a current owner have a claim against Ford, Franklin's estate (which is probably gone by now), and/or Stack's?
In addition, it will also be very interesting to see the Stack's catalog of Ford's collection of gold bars when it comes time for these to be auctioned. His collection of colonials was simply amazing. I am sure that Buttrey would concur that Ford's collection of gold bars is amazing but Buttrey might have another reason for thinking the collection amazing...
Mark