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CoinWorld again ignores the ACG suit?
lava
Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭
Is it possible?
What is the excuse this time?
Granted I subscribe online, which is a little awkward, and I may have missed it, but I think CW once again failed to cover this very important story.
What a worthless read. Unless someone here points me to it, I am cancelling CW.
CW has done, and is doing, a great disservice to the hobby by closing its eyes to this very important story.
What is the excuse this time?
Granted I subscribe online, which is a little awkward, and I may have missed it, but I think CW once again failed to cover this very important story.
What a worthless read. Unless someone here points me to it, I am cancelling CW.
CW has done, and is doing, a great disservice to the hobby by closing its eyes to this very important story.
I brake for ear bars.
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Comments
Morgan Dollar Aficionado & Vammer
Current Set: Morgan Hit List 40 VAM Set
i'd much rather read about the HOBBY
K S
I don't understand.
Isn't this forum part of the hobby? Inasmuch as it involves collectors that expressed a viewpoint towards a grading service, shouldn't that count? If I wasn't a member of this forum, I might not be aware that a law suit was brought agains collectors that voiced their opinions on the internet.
What if ACG wins the suit? Wouldn't you, as collector in the hobby, want to know that you could be a defendent in a future suit also if you express your opinion? I certainly would.
Bob
Vietnam Vet 1968-1969
IMHO, this is a ridiculously old-fashioned and overly cautious policy. I have written literally dozens of stories about court cases using documents available online through official websites maintained by the courts, including the US Supreme Court. Some federal courts even allow cases to be filed electronically and treat the online filings as official documents just as if they were filed in person. The ACG lawsuit is available as an official document directly from the clerk of court's website. CW should stop dragging its feet and join the Internet generation.
You are not interested in a company going on the legal offensive after years of slabbing coins that, at least around this forum, the general consensus appears to consider overgraded. Look at the ACG coins on ebay. Do you think those coins are accurately graded? Do you think the buyers of those coins are going to be pleased? Do you think the buyers of those coins are going to be pleased when they go to try and resell those coins? Do you think the buyers of those coins are going to lose money in the process? Do you think the buyers of those coins may become disgusted with this hobby and leave it forever? Do you think an increasing number of people leaving the hobby is good for you, your collection, or your ability to recoup the money you have in your coins?
Did you see the impact that a few mutual fund traders recently had on the entire industry? Millions of dollars were pulled out of mutual funds, and millions more never went in and were instead diverted to other investments. Even a tiny hole in a dam can have a devastating effect.
In my opinion, if you have ever spent more than face value for any coin in your collection, you have to be concerned about each and every company that holds itself out as a professional grader of coins, for which they are paid a fee, and for which they issue an opinion that we as collectors are supposed to be able to rely upon.
A true investigative reporter can write some wonderful stories about this lawsuit. Look at the ANA hearing where ACG grading standards were criticized. You don't find that fascinating?
You can bury your head in your coins and go on thinking this hobby is pure as newly fallen snow, but if attention is not brought to very real disputes going on around you, you may one day resurface from your coin pile and find yourself surrounded by nothing but yellow snow.
If I were CW' s editor, I would be profoundly embarrassed that people are geting more, better and more timely information about this and other important numismatic topics on a free forum like this one rather than their publication. It begs the question: Why should we pay to subscribe to their publication if we get better info for free?
Before going to law school, I worked for a magazine writing feature articles on legal news. The job of a good investigative reporter is to take a lead (like a complaint) and run with it. There are many angles from which the lead might be pursued, and a lot of good copy can come out of it, all without having to editorialize.
Kobe Bryant hasn't had his day in court yet -- are the Kobe allegations not considered news? There has been little activity in the courtroom, and yet just stop for a moment and consider the information you have already acquired.
If investigative reporters waited for announced decisions to report news, they would soon be unemployed. In essence you are saying that the weeks leading up to the Super Bowl are meaningless and that all we need is the final score of the game. I can't think of a single example where news is reported in this fashion.
Even if you hadn't stopped to consider this, CW should certainly know how to cover and report a story. At the heart of the lawsuit is the demise of one of the very few "professional" third party companies that encapsulates coins. According to the complaint, the Hagers have been driven out of the business. Even if the story were limited to the allegations, it is still news, maybe not to you, but consider the many subscribers of CW that don't come to this forum and have yet to hear about the lawsuit. Think of Ford or GM or Jeep going out of business, based on similar allegations. Would that not be news?
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
to make money as a vehicle for advertising, by many and in some cases ,unsavory
companies. They do not seem to exercise any control over the conduct of the companies that advertise
nor do they seem to take stands on behalf of collectors. With the rise of Forums such as these, perhaps
the days of Coin World are indeed numbered. If you no longer serve a need to the end consumer
and if the news is stale when you get it then no need to put out good money for a paper filled with
nothing but ads of dubious character.
Camelot
Anyone who want to be really informed will stay on top of both sources.
I dumped them a LONG time ago when they actually published some of the negative stuff about ACG and the ANA. I cannot even remember what it was but did dump them because in the SAME issue they permitted ACG to have a large ad.
what a joke.
I subscribed to that book for YEARS and can honestly say I don't miss it ONE bit!
Marc
What a lie. CoinWorld can download the lawsuit here - and this copy has the case number assigned by the court as well as the signature page of ACG's lawyers. What they receive in the mail will be no different.
And what kind of newsgathering organization is CoinWorld when ordinary coin collectors have the relevant materials in hand literally months before CoinWorld? If CoinWorld were interested, they could have had the complaint copied at the courthouse and overnighted to their offices for a nominal fee. This could have been done weeks ago.
What a joke of an organization. And Beth Deisher's imbecilic response is all the proof you need that she holds CoinWorld's readers in low regard.
I'll assume they will receive their copy in the mail shortly, and will be interested to see how they cover the story after that.
And it's a rare day that I disagree with Bear, but I must. Clearly CW must have advertising to survive, but in fact their subscriber base is collectors. They must serve them as well as the advertisers, or else the advertisers will not shell out the money for the ad pages. CW has worked hard, IMHO, to bring the Mint to task for not being forthright in disclosing information which the Mint has no logical reason to withhold, and has filed many FOIA requests. That's not something they have to do, and if they cared only about the advertisers they wouldn't waste the effort.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
If they want a court-issued copy of the filing, I don't have a problem with that.
The explanation is ridiculous. Looks like CoinWorld is owned by Amos Press -- a publishing company that purportedly has 370 employees, owns several publications and even has multiple business lines, including ANACS.
Are you telling me a company with the resources of Amos Press is so pathetically inept neither Amos nor its senior editors can obtain a publicly filed document within a few days of it being filed?
Or they couldn't call up ACG and ask for a copy? For the love of Christ, ACG had a press release about the damn suit. CoinWorld couldn't telephone and at least get a statement? Or even have a blurb about the press release?
In any event, there is no such thing as a "court-issued" copy of a complaint. Complaints are not like birth certificates, social security cards -- or even judicial orders. Plaintiffs (i.e. ordinary people and their lawyers) themselves create and file complaints -- the court clerk will merely stamp whatever it is the plaintiff seeks to file in court so long as it meets the minimum filing requirements (page size, two copies with double caption pages, two-hole punched, signed, or whatever else the overlords desire). And after being stamped, it is the plaintiff's "conformed" copy that is served on defendants -- not some special document issued by the court. So when you get a "copy," you're getting a copy of what the plaintiff filed, not something the court created.
I don't blame them for not wanting to take a chance, however slight, that a copy they download from somewhere might not be the genuine article. I'll assume they will receive their copy in the mail shortly, and will be interested to see how they cover the story after that.
No one said they had to use a downloaded copy. And CoinWorld's excuse simply does not square with how things get done in the real world, and most certainly not by even the most rudimentary media outlets. Daily, routinely, if someone wants a public document filed with a court, you pay a nominal fee to a service and the document is retrieved. You can then have it Federal Expressed, faxed, turned into a *.pdf and emailed -- whatever you want to do to get the information as expeditiously as possible.
Believe what you want to. In my opinion, the explanation is absurd on its face and, as I said, insults the intelligence of CoinWorld's readers.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
CW has simply dropped the ball, and its apparent excuses are lame. I am deeply troubled by CW's lack of interest in this most serious issue.
The explanation is nonsense. Even if you accept the absurd proposition they need a "paper copy in their hands," CW could have easily obtained a copy weeks ago. As a couple forum members have noted, such requests are routine -- hundreds, if not thousands, of businesses exist to provide this service. Just Google "attorney service" and behold the myriad hits. No magic; routine business. Hell, I could have court filings from Hawaii sent to the mainland the SAME DAY if my paralegal or I call early enough (time zone) and request a fax or *.pdf file.
I don't care what "form" CW purports to need the complaint in -- they could have, and probably did, obtain it long ago. CW employed the "say anything" approach to conceal the truth about why they avoided the story.
<< <i>Dorkkarl, I don't understand. Isn't this forum part of the hobby? >>
yes.... because posts are made irregardless of plastic.
<< <i>What if ACG wins the suit? Wouldn't you, as collector in the hobby, want to know that you could be a defendent in a future suit also if you express your opinion? >>
if you mean me personally, my answer is "no". i really don't care what happens w/ the acg lawsuit, because i just don't care about plastic. the bottom line is that folks who get in trouble w/ acg do so because they don't take the time to learn how to grade coins. sorry to be blunt about it, i know emotions run high, but "acg" is NOT the problem, FOOLS are the problem.
<< <i>You are not interested in a company going on the legal offensive after years of slabbing coins that, at least around this forum, the general consensus appears to consider overgraded. Look at the ACG coins on ebay. Do you think those coins are accurately graded? >>
imo, 90%, & i am not exaggerating, NINETY PERCENT of the coins on ebay don't meet my grading standards. that INCLUDES PCGS, NGC, ANACS coins. so again, no, acg don't mean diddly to me.
<< <i>Do you think the buyers of those coins are going to be pleased when they go to try and resell those coins? >>
what makes you so sure that EVERYONE buying coins does so w/ resell value in mind? ever consider the possiblity that someone just might buy a coin because they want to & couldn't care less about what others think, including of its "resale" value?
<< <i>Do you think an increasing number of people leaving the hobby is good for you, your collection, or your ability to recoup the money you have in your coins? >>
your question is confused. i doubt many are leaving the hobby, though a lot of them might be leaving the business. far as i'm concerned, the more who leave THE BUSINESS, the better for me. why? because i really don't care 1 danged bit about the potential resale of my coins going down. i don't buy my coins w/ profit motive in mind. the benefit i get out of SIMPLY ENJOYING coins supersedes financial aspects for me, & it sure as he11 supersedes what plastic co's think of my coins.
<< <i>It's news because it affects all collectors >>
totally, completely disagree. it's news ONLY to those who care about acg, & i guarantee that not all collectors give a rats rear-end about it.
the blunt truth is, it's a story to so many of you becuase YOU ARE ALL CAUGHT UP IN PLASTIC. i put forth that most of you don't really give a damm about THE HOBBY. as long as you can make $$$, hide behind the alleged assurances of plastic, you "care" about acg. but take away the plastic, & you are like sheep that are suddenly struck blind.
"ACG" IS NOT the problem. IGNORANCE, of what THE HOBBY is supposed to be all about, THAT is the problem.
K S
Lava, You are correct in all you have said, and I also think that this is a very important case. I think a judge and jury may well decide if the grading and certifying of coins is totally subjective, and therefore whom ever you hire to certify your coins is always correct! I also agree with you that CW or someone should take the lead in doing investigative work on this important story and not only print the facts of the case but gather opinions from influential collectors dealers and other certifiers. I am sure CW is concerned about their bottom line business, and well they should be, but they might find that circulation would increase substantially if they published some controversial stories. On the other hand this seems to be a paper that only reports on events that have already occurred. As we all know this will be a long drawn out suit, UNLESS SOMEONE SETTLES, which means unless the defendants pay up to get out of the trap. It is most unlikely that ACG will want to settle since the longer the suit goes on the more of a warning it is to others not to bad mouth their company.
Karl, I speak only for myself. I'm not a plastic collector but I do believe the ACG story is a story because it impacts our freedom to call foul when we believe one has occurred. I think it makes sense to participate in the discussion. This legal action is an effort to limit our ability to have those discussions. The name calling alleged in the suit was childish, but the meat of the criticisms leveled at ACG were not. If the criticisms of ACG are proven factual, sitting by watching while saying nothing (or choosing not to support those that did) does little to promote education or the hobby. You don't have to care about plastic to care about promoting good ethics and fair business practices within the hobby. JMO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Dorkkarl, let me say that I am NOT a dealer, and I rarely sell coins, and when I do, it is usually because I've upgraded, and when I sell I aim to break even. I am very much concerned about the integrity of grades and values. If I see an ms66, I have no problem paying ms66 money, and I would hope the next person would feel the same way when I go to sell. But the underlying basis of all sales is threatened when an ms66 is not really an ms66, but selling at ms66 money. It sets a very bad precedent, and I am very uncomfrotable knowing that this practice goes on out there, even if I personally decide to avoid ACG coins.
I think this is very far-reaching. If I pay face value for coins, then maybe I think like you and I don't care what holders say. But realistically, very few collectors are collecting coins based on a Redfield mentality of trading paper dollars straight up for silver dollars. Once there is a premium associated with a sale, then the grade becomes very important to me and to others, because it helps determine the market value.
Just my opinions of course, but I think my heart is in the right place on this one.
<< <i>Karl, I speak only for myself. I'm not a plastic collector but I do believe the ACG story is a story because it impacts our freedom to call foul when we believe one has occurred/ >>
hey dheath, i agree w/ that. but if it's a story of freedom & rights, the article should appear in a legal rag, or maybe a business rag. it has no place in a numismatic rag (or at least 1 that purports to be).
what i'm trying to say is, there are rip-offs & scams involved with EVERY kind of plastic, not just acg. trying to premise the case on "grading", which is after all demonstrably 100% subjective, it just becomes a ceaseless, noisy argument that can never be settled. if instead, the case was about the evils of "cerfied grades", that would be a different story. you cannot enfoce opinions, & grades are just that, OPINIONS
<< <i>I can just imagine a new collector standing on the bourse floor holding an ACG holdered coin, and he turns to me and says, excuse me, I'm new at this, do you think this is a good deal on this coin? Can you imagine having to say "I'm sorry, I can't give you my opinion, because if I do I may get sued." >>
your example does not hold water. that new collector would be asking you about the COIN. the answer you could give could simply be "i think it grades such&such". there is no way in he11 in this country you can get sued over proffering an opinion of a coin's GRADE, i don't care what kind of plastic it's in.
now understand, my incidence of disagreeing w/ acg grades is very high. i happen to disagree their grades probably some 98% of the time. but i do not condemn their right to their opinion. fact is, i disagree w/ pcgs grades some 30% of the time, which is quite substantial.
to look at the flip side, why does nobody get angry about ngc or pcgs UNDERgrading coins? that would be as much a disservice as OVERgrading. that's what i mean by "plastic blindness".
bottom line for me is what it's always been. the PROBLEM is not "overgrading" or "undergrading", rather the problem is the implication by ALL members of the plastic community that a coin's grade is a definite attribute of a coin, that it's somehow inherent to a coin. grading is SUBJECTIVE. the idea of cerfying a SUBJECTIVE OPINION is hogwash, & EVERY plastic co. is guilty in that regard.
K S
"acg" is NOT the problem, FOOLS are the problem...wiser words were never uttered. Pitfalls exist for every collector who does not educate themselves. An uninformed collector could walk into any coin shop in America and lose big money on a purchase right now, today.
I could buy a coin right now from David Lawrence Rare coins, put it on Ebay, consign it to Heritage...whatever, and realize that I paid for a slabbed coin that was cleaned or overgraded when my sell price failed to reach the buy price I bought the coin from DLRC (I know because I have done it three times
ACG is a problem, but the biggest problem are uneducated buyers! Educate the collectors and buyers and ACG would not have an audience.
I would like to also express gratitude for those who do champion the collectors by pointing out the coin dealers, sellers, grading companies etc, that buck the market grading as accepted by the majority of informed collectors and the risks they take by exposing them.
Tyler
BTW, I think that DorkKarl made some very solid points that everyone should read a few times until it sinks in, even though I rarely agree with the dorkster.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
A grading scale of 1-70 is adopted by the ANA as a uniform standard, and it is enough of a standard that at least two companies are willing to guaranty their grading based upon it.
It is pure chicken manure that a grading company can defend its grades on the basis that its grades are based on its own scale of 1-70, which has nothing to do with the "standard" grading system. This is terribly misleading. It is contrary to all of the laws designed to protect the consumer.
Can you imagine what our legal system would be like if this disregard for consumer protection showed up in other areas, like food, automobiles, condoms, medications, etc.
Courts have found that a company may be negligent for not warning consumers of hemorrhoid medication not to ingest the product. Why is that warning necessary? Because people are stupid, that is why, and judge and jury alike have found that stupid people need protection from themselves. It is no defense of ACG to simply say the problem in the coin industry is attributable to stupid people. Courtrooms are full of stupid people who recover millions and millions of dollars every week in damages. ACG's grading scale of 1-70, but a different 1-70 that anyone else uses, is simply not helping the stupid people. In people v. ACG, I have to side with the people.
<< <i>I agree with dorkkarl's point that one's own foolishness oftentimes is a contributing factor, and a major factor, in getting swindled. However, is just isn't that simple.
A grading scale of 1-70 is adopted by the ANA as a uniform standard, and it is enough of a standard that at least two companies are willing to guaranty their grading based upon it.
It is pure chicken manure that a grading company can defend its grades on the basis that its grades are based on its own scale of 1-70, which has nothing to do with the "standard" grading system. This is terribly misleading. It is contrary to all of the laws designed to protect the consumer. >>
lava, the problem is that following your logic, then there's ALREADY been a violation of the 1-70 grading standard .... BY THE ANA ITSELF.
the 1-70 scale is the sheldon scale, NOT the "ana" scale. & believe you me, it's already been heavily corrupted way beyond what dr. sheldon envisioned. so again, that is just not going to hold water in a legal argument.
furthermore, note that pcgs & ngc EACH publish DIFFERENT STANDARDS of grading, despite claiming to adhere to the same 1-70 scale. so again, as long is this argument against acg is based on "grading", it is totally doomed to failure.
again, & i keep coming back to this, the REAL problem is that plastic guarantees ARE BOGUS in today's configuration. until that is realized by the masses, the argument against acg will always fail.
K S
<< <i>again, & i keep coming back to this, the REAL problem is that plastic guarantees ARE BOGUS in today's configuration. until that is realized by the masses, the argument against acg will always fail.
K S >>
No, the REAL problem is one of free speech -- whether dissatisfied consumers of any product or service have a right to express their dissatisfaction in a reasonable manner. Anything related to grading standards, plastic slabs or even coins is incidental. This lawsuit is important because it can set the standard for what ALL OF US can say about the businesses we deal with as consumers.
Edited to add: ACG is offering a service based on expert opinions about coins. It seems reasonable that the quality of those opinions should be subject to critical analysis.
Dorkkarl - It's the law that is to be enforced, not the opinions. So the real question, lawyers correct me if I'm wrong, is whether or not it is determined that a TPG's subjective grading process is controlled by fraudulent intent. If it is, then the subjectivity of grading won't be a sufficient defense.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Newsman - First, I've read enough rabidly anti-ACG comments on these boards to be sure that you and I have different definitions of "reasonable". Second, the fact that ACG is selling a product does not give the world the right to say anything they please about ACG.
Hmm... I wonder if Bill Gates would sue you if you called him a fishwife?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
In any case, CW covered the Stuppler vs. ACG hearing in Charlotte last year. How is this much different?
<< <i>In any case, CW covered the Stuppler vs. ACG hearing in Charlotte last year. How is this much different? >>
maybe they learned something in a year, like how to recognize what's a numismatic story & what's rubbish.
K S
Naughton vs. Hager
<< <i>Hmm... I wonder if Bill Gates would sue you if you called him a fishwife? >>
I've heard him called worse things than that.
Seriously, Andy, Microsoft has been subjected to lots of public abuse by people who just don't like the company. I suspect, however, that they subscribe to a different public relations strategy than Accugrade when they are criticized. I also suspect that Microsoft has a thicker skin because the criticism seems to have less of an effect on its bottom line.
Did Naughton ever collect from Hager, or did asset shifting and/or bankruptcy occur?
fishwife NOUN: A person, traditionally a woman, who persistently nags or criticizes
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Eric,
Did Naughton ever collect from Hager, or did asset shifting and/or bankruptcy occur? >>
I don't know. But I am sure we will be finding out soon.