The public is being ripped so badly on Ebay it isn’t funny anymore

melikecoins

With all those MS70 coins and PCI Deep Cameos that have a mirror finish, not to mention the AT peddlers.

The suckers are paying really good money to acquire this JUNK.

Something should be done before the whole thing comes crashing down because of their stupidity, and the sellers greed.

Well, With free enterprise I guess anything goes.

It just makes me sick


Glen

nwcs

As Homer Simpson once said, "yeah but what are you going to do?" Wish there was something to be done, but probably isn't.

Russ

About all we can do is continue to try to educate and alert people to the scams. At least those who visit here and pay attention are less likely to fall for it. That's something, anyway.

Russ, NCNE

merz2

I wondered if we E-mailed all the bidders with a link to this site,would Ebay get mad ?

nwcs

Yep, it's called auction interference. Though it hasn't stopped people. When done for the right reasons, I think it's a good thing. But sometimes it isn't done for the right reasons. Of course, there used to be scamcrook. But I do not know if he's retired or not...

melikecoins

Return to us scamcrook

Glen

cladking

I used to look for unoped mint sets on e-bay of the '65 to 98 issues. There were often a few available,
but right now that don't appear to be any at all except for fifteen or twenty listings of envelopes which
have been sealed only since they left the mint. It's vaguely possible these sellers are not aware that
these were never sealed but it seems improbable.

More surprisingly, it used to be possible by searching for "5 mint sets" and excluding proofs to find sub-
stantial numbers of nice original sets which were still in their shipping boxes. There were no such sets
listed!

This ould seem to substantiate the author's claim that the public is being ripped by increasingly sophis-
ticated sellers.

eagle7

EBAY continues to degenerate into a cesspool. All kinds of bad stuff going on by the sellers, not limited to but including getting numerous ebay handles so they can bid up their own stuff. Then there is the NTC and PCI and ACG slabs which they use to fool numismatically challenged folks. EBAy dont care! Remember TEMPUS FUGIT! Used to be pretty easy to find a few diamonds in the ruff once in a while, now it requires hours and hours of wading thru the muck to pluck a jewel. YUK!

Russ

<< <i>Remember TEMPUS FUGIT! >>



Only when having fun.

Russ, NCNE

mnmcoin

We should organize a schedule to list parady ebay auctions with some sort of at and pci 70 crap...basically selling an education on how to learn to tell at from nt and good coins from bad...link this site etc.

morris <><

ddink

It's sad really. When they came out, I bought some Millennium Coinage and Currency sets from the mint and opened them (I didn't cherrypick--although I wouldn't expect any buyer to take my word for it--I just like to look at my coins rather than stare at boxes!). When I put them on eBay, people kept emailing me asking if they were opened or not (unopened--still shrink-wrapped--sets were bringing like a $15-$20 premium). I emailed other sellers on eBay and asked their thoughts about opened versus unopened, and one guy actually came right out and said that he just buys them already opened then takes them to an office supply store and has them shrink-wrapped! And consumers are dumb enough to fall for it! I don't know what's worse, the stupidity of consumers or the total lack of integrity on the part of the rip-off artists.

At the time, the burnished dollars were selling separately (cut out of the set) for $40 each, and there was a guy on eBay that was just taking normal Sacs, burnishing them in a rock tumbler, then selling them as "Burnished Sacagawea Dollars." He said he didn't think he was doing anything wrong since he never explicitly SAID they were from a Millennium Set, and he couldn't help it if the consumer mistakenly assumed they were.

The lack of ethics is appalling.

melikecoins

The lack of ethics is appalling.

I think you have it ddink

A seal of Approval

Maybe a "PCGS Forum Seal of Approval" for seller

Glen

Duckster

I was in a coin shop one day and heard one of the guys behind the counter talking to an apparent regular customer. The customer was telling the clerk how he could get rid of his culls in bags on Ebay. The plan was to act like they new nothing about coins and let the bidders imagination fuel a feeding frenzy. The customer said he would start a new account so as to not mess up his regular account and would ignore all emails. They would start the bidding low, but have
a buddy watch the auction and bid if it were going for to little a price. The clerk then started dumping bags of old wheat cents into his coin counter and counted out 5000. This made me sick. I thought they could be trusted. I guess no one can be trusted. This is going to go bust just like baseball cards.

cladking

<< <i>I was in a coin shop one day and heard one of the guys behind the counter talking to an apparent regular customer. The customer was telling the clerk how he could get rid of his culls in bags on Ebay. The plan was to act like they new nothing about coins and let the bidders imagination fuel a feeding frenzy. The customer said he would start a new account so as to not mess up his regular account and would ignore all emails. They would start the bidding low, but have
a buddy watch the auction and bid if it were going for to little a price. The clerk then started dumping bags of old wheat cents into his coin counter and counted out 5000. This made me sick. I thought they could be trusted. I guess no one can be trusted. This is going to go bust just like baseball cards. >>



I should have predicted this. In a sense I did. One of my first posts here suggested
that most of the crooks and charlatans had been driven away from the hobby largely
by the lack of business and they would return when things got hot.

We have met the enemy...

...greed.

Neptune

maybe if some of the more knowledgeable folks (not me) - went to the eBay coin forum and posted 'regularly', including links to this thread/and others pertaining to this subject, that more folks would see it and wise up............also, I would think that eBay should be contacted regarding any/all bogus auctions - and any other powers that be - such as Paypal and USPS/mail fraud. Maybe someone with too much time on their hands could buy 'coincop.com', and develop something. I just checked godaddy.com and that URL is available for 6.95/1yr. as well as coincop.net and .info. I don't know enough about coins and website development to do this. I can't believe that eBay allows this to go on.

chiefbob

Duckster,

Welcome to the forum! The coin shop story really stinks, and I hope you told him you wouldn't be a customer any more due to his lack of integrity and honesty.

I hate to say it, but we can't save everyone from themselves. It does hurt to see eBay scammers and unreputable coin dealers rip off unsuspecting customers. However, as with any other collectible hobby, knowledge is power. Whether you collect antiques, coins, stamps, etc., if you are really serious about the hobby you'll research and become knowledgeable about it. You are new to the forum and I suspect that you actively sought out a coin collecting forum site to increase your knowledge and learn from experienced collectors on this board.

I'm not worried about our hobby crashing down because of some scammers with "unsearched bags of coins" for sale, or the eBay crap from unreputable grading services. There are enough honest dealers and collectors that are in the majority to overcome these idiots. Yeah, a newbie will get burned with a bad purchase, but then what? Hopefully that person will get mad enough to examine his mistake and educate himself in the hobby. If he doesn't and leaves coin collecting, adios. He's not a true collector in the first place.

It's funny you mentioned the baseball card bust. I got caught up in that in the late 80s, and will admit that greed entered into it. Card values were skyrocketing (on newly released cards) and dealers couldn't keep the stuff in stock. Advertisements were less than honest, and everything was hyped up. Now I've got boxes of cards that I can't give away. It turns out that there were warehouses full of PALLETS of sportscards, and supply overwhelmingly exceeded demand. The bubble burst. I don't see that happening in this hobby, as the Mint controls the number of coins produced and there's a limited supply of older (classic) coins in supply.

Keep the faith and spread the word about the scams and the benefits of being a member on this forum.

Bob



In Memory of BigIndie (Mike Dalzell) 1974-2004

MacCoin

I don't know about the MS the only junk slabs I have brought were pr70s and they sell for less than the pcgs pr69s and sometimes cheaper than the pr68s. I don't think anyone is getting rip they are just getting what they pay for.

LucyBop

There are many good good sellers on Ebay....

cladking

<< <i>There are many good good sellers on Ebay.... >>



To keep things in perspective a little. It should be remembered too, that in most
of these cases what we are describing is not so much outright fraud as it is sellers
just trying to maximize the price by less than full disclosure or less than fair dealing.

Shilling is unfair and against e-bay rules but it is still the buyer who determines the
value of what he's buying. Some of the "sealed" mint sets are probably being sold
by those who don't know thy weren't sealed at the mint. Even the relatively few
counterfeits appearing are in some cases being sold by those who didn't know. These
can be deceptive, especially when it's a coin you don't suspect because it is rarely
counterfeited.

While the number of dubious sales is probably higher than in the past, there is also
an increasing number of coins being sold at retail prices and it is likely this which ex-
plains many of these apparent rip-offs. If the market continues hot long enough it is
likely going to become difficult to find coins based on the wholesale levels with which
the market has become so familiar.

ksteelheader

There are many good good sellers on Ebay.... ...Yes, there are! As with any other purchase in life, whether it is a car, home, groceries, liquor, or anything, you need to be knowledgable on what you are buying, or you end up paying the price.

People need to learn to be responsible for theit actions (purchases) and not come here crying when they get burnt! I've seen it so many times here, where a person asks if "would this be a good purchase?"
They are warned to stay away from the item, but choose to go ahead and buy anyway. When they then get the item and it is not what they wanted, they want to come here and get the vigilantes and the possee involved. Some people just don't learn, or, listen to solicited advice!!!!

Life is full of unfairness! Learn to know what you're doing and purchasing, or it will continue to be unfair...JMO......Ken

Hedger

Ebay is essentially just another "Coin Vault" as seen on T.V.. I think it's also a dumping grounds for dealers junk. It has become difficult to find a real treasure on eBay. The dealers are the ones who grab the good finds, the rest goes up for auction on eBay. Throw some AT on it and it will sell guaranteed.

DHeath

I'll not link the auction, but I'd like to observe the best misrepresentations actually link this site and use PCGS's price guide to sell inferior goods. They appeal to the greed of the BUYER, usually some newbie that doesn't have a clue what they're bidding on is really worth. The text below is typical, and from an actual listing. The coin opens at $700. They'll have to pay their tuition like we all did.

In the listing, the seller notes there are only 45 to ever grade 68. There are over 50 at PCGS alone.



Notice the seller actually puts up a graphic of the PCGS price guide with a link.



Nice obverse, looks cam.



Here's a little trouble. The reverse won't make cam, much less dcam.



The holder.



Here's a side by side comparison of a coin MS68 Dcam beside the one being sold. The coin I've pictured is one I submitted to NGC that graded MS68 Ucam, and later crossed to PCGS at the same grade.



Assuming you agree with the grade, if the coin won't dcam at PCGS, the no cam- cam portion of the price guide wasn't included in the seller's listing. He assumes for the buyer that the coin would dcam.

Russ

Don,

I saw that auction. I sent the seller an eMail offering him $20 for the coin if he pays the shipping.

Russ, NCNE

pocketpiececommems

I agree. There are good sellers as well as not so good sellers on E-bay. Same thing goes when you go to a coin show or a coin shop. Either place someone wants to sell you something. You have to do your homework either way.

keets

hey All

if you get stuck on the fact that eBay is something special in the realm of the coin world and you start to think that it suffers from problems that are unique to it alone, you may end up with the opinion that is the basis for this thread.

on the other hand, if you can view eBay as another version of what is commonplace in the hobby of Numismatics and the world as a whole, you may become cautious and enjoy the experience more.

things which seem so despicable about eBay are things that have been happening in commerce and in the hobby ever since mankind was able to deceive. it is quite simply human nature at it's lowest manifestation. consider ddink's example of the scammers with the Millennium Sets who just buys them already opened then takes them to an office supply store and has them shrink-wrapped! And consumers are dumb enough to fall for it! a friend who's been a dealer for many years related a story to me about the 1980 Silver run. the Brown Box Ike's from 1973 were selling in excess of $100 at the time. what the scammers did was remove the Silver Proof and replace it with a Clad Proof for an instant payday.

catioun should always be the watchword, not just at eBay and not just with coins.

al h.

ddink

Dheath: It's amazing that people are so dumb as to fall for that. If someone walked up to you and offered you a new car for $2,000, would you think something is wrong with it? Yet these people think nothing of buying "a $10,000 coin" for the low low price of $700. It's like that guy that sells the "$100,000" PR70 PCI slabs for $500. Hasn't anyone heard "If it's too good to be true..."?

Russ

<< <i>Dheath: It's amazing that people are so dumb as to fall for that. If someone walked up to you and offered you a new car for $2,000, would you think something is wrong with it? >>



Don would flip it for a quick profit.

Russ, NCNE

ksteelheader

I've heard tell that car salesmen are pretty shady characters....
..........Ken

wallstreetman

Yeah, but you better damn well know what your talking about before you interfere with someones auction! How about those people who said those canceled coins were fake, one of these days your going to be talking to a judge! Im keeping track of a few of these people right now, Im pretty sure I will be serving them a summons!

Russ

<< <i>Im keeping track of a few of these people right now, Im pretty sure I will be serving them a summons! >>



I'm sure they're quaking in their boots.

Russ, NCNE

wallstreetman

Probably not, thats why they end up in court!

DHeath

nickel

just a thought on a sentence by a poster . if the dealers grab all the good finds , where and to whom do they sell ?

Russ

Oh crap! The auction that Don posted about actually has a bid at the $700. It's a friggin' $25 coin at best!

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl

what i don't get about a thread like this, if SO many people are getting ripped, there's SO many scams, there's SO many scam artists, SO many fools & poor stupid idiots getting taken advantage of, SO much crime, corruption, evil-do'ers, villains, cheats & mongrels out there, .....

then why do SO many people enjoy bidding on ebay?

is it just possible that YOU are WRONG? what makes you think everyone has to subscribe to YOUR opinion of what's a rip-off or not?

K S

DHeath

is it just possible that YOU are WRONG?

Absolutely. Every opinion carries the bias of the owner. It is now fair to say the market value for the coin I discussed is at least $700, because someone is willing to pay it (the bidder). It is simply not worth that to me.

BillJones

An economic fact of life is that a business must turn a profit to stay in business. As a dealer I can tell you that numismatics is generally a low mark-up industry for legitimate material. Many of us work on 10 to 20 percent mark-ups over the cost of the goods. Ebay continually chips away at our margins. They demand more to post offerings; they want bigger percentages of the gross sales; and they have that "wonderful" little innovation called Paypal, which is mostly THEIR pal, not the pal of the sellers, which takes more of our gross sales revenue.

When you have bidders who won't pay any more than Gray Sheet "bid" or perhaps 7 to 10 percent over bid, that leaves NO GROSS MARGIN or this market or a NEGATIVE GROSS MARGIN for those who offer really nice items. THEREFORE, one finds that the only way to make it on Ebay is to offer material that ranges from less than exciting, through overgraded and deceptive, to down right junky.

The ebay bidders have brought some of this upon themselves. They expect to buy coins for less than the prices that the pieces trade for at the major shows, and on top of that they expect the sellers to pay all of the expenses.

Just look at the major auctions. Quite often the buyers' fees represent the "take" for the auction houses, and the consignors get the hammer price or even more than the hammer price for major consignments.

If you look at these financial facts, I think that you can quickly see why Ebay is in the state that it's in today.

Russ

<< <i>is it just possible that YOU are WRONG? >>



No.

Russ, NCNE