Amazingly toned Bust half with pictures inside

jbsteven

I bought this from Bob Campbell at the ANA show and believe it is one of the nicest toned bust halves I have seen. If you look at the colors on this coin at first it screams AT however if you look closer you will notice tell tale signs orginality. Look at the letters in liberty and you will see that the colors are different at the surface compared to down inside the letters. Also look below the date where the toning has "shadows" below them similar to the way original toned Morgans look. This coin will be in a article in Coin World in a month or two as a exteme example of unusual original toning that does not usually happen especially on bust halves.

Enjoy

airplanenut

Good call... I screamed AT

Gonna slab it?

Jeremy

BigE

JB, I appreciate you showing me that coin in Portland it is very striking to look at-----------------BigE

ss350camaro

Very Nice !!

This brings up a question. I see that you are holding the coin (by the edges) with bare fingers? Aren't we supposed to be careful when handling coins and use some kind of glove ? Won't touching them with bare hands transfer body oils to the coin ?

Seems like in the long run this could be damaging ?

Fill me in ........... ?

stman

So tell us how it happened.

jbsteven

thanks guys

ss

I am touching the edges of the coin. When coins are graded by the TPG's they use their bare hands.

coinlieutenant

I still think that it needs to go on the Atkins diet..., less starch.... IOW less potatoes....

Russ

I would be very surprised if PCGS holdered that coin, and only slightly less surprised if NGC did. The obverse looks like it might be okay, but I think the reverse would earn it a bodybag.

Russ, NCNE

jbsteven

stman

I believe from a Wayte Raymond or other album similar to those. What is your guess?

jbsteven

Russ

I figure it will take at least 2-3 tries for PCGS/NGC to feel comfortable holdering it. I firmly believe it to be NT. If the grading services do not want to holder it I will get a Capital Plastics holder for it.

stman

And do you feel anything was "done" to the coin before it went into this album?

jbsteven

stman

I really don't know.

can you define "done".

I would like to hear your opinion on this coin. Do you have one?

coinlieutenant

Starch, starch, starch!!!!!!!!!

stman

I'm not sure yet. It IS very unusual as you say. As far as my meaning of if anything was "Done" to the coin before possibly being put in an album. I'm not necessarily meaning AT. Could be dipped and chemical residue, cleaned and re-toned with some residue to help impart the very unusual color. Truthfully I don't care for it.

If it did indeed have something "done" to it way back, then IMO it is not "Original."

Here is original toning from a Wayte Raymond album, with nothing "done" to it beforehand. I'm not saying they all need to look like this. Here is my scan that depicts the coin pretty darn close. Very cool reverse huh?

jbsteven

very cool reverse

I like mine better!

Stuart

Jason: Either way, that's a very beautifully toned Bust Half!

Russ

<< <i>Here is original toning from a Wayte Raymond album, with nothing "done" to it beforehand. >>



Stman,

You are very well preserved for a man your age.

Russ, NCNE

stman

I will say, that going only by your image the colors appear to float on the surface. Looking at mine the toning and colors are embedded and grabbing the surface.

stman

<< <i>

<< <i>Here is original toning from a Wayte Raymond album, with nothing "done" to it beforehand. >>



Stman,

You are very well preserved for a man your age.

Russ, NCNE >>



Russ, you didn't go over my head on that one. All we can really do is go by an educated guess and hands on experience from looking at others. As well as many other opinions from experts that have seen the coin. Me? I'm no expert. And NO I wasn't there when they put the coin in the album. Besides... how do you know I'm well preserved.

jbsteven

<< <i>I will say, that going only by your image the colors appear to float on the surface. Looking at mine the toning and colors are embedded and grabbing the surface. >>



I don't see a difference in the toning of mine and yours and the "grabbing" you are referring to.



Bob Campbell gave me some deep technical stuff about the toning that makes sense and why it cannot be AT. He mentioned that liquid toning would run into the letters in liberty and AT gases would do the same amoung other things. I wish he was here to give his opinion.

stman

JB, I never said AT.

jbsteven

if I implied you said AT I did not mean to.

mgoodm3

Very cool color.

Stuart

Jason: Your toned Bust Half appears to be nearly mint state to me -- I'd say AU-58. What's your opinion?

coinlieutenant

All joking aside the coin is gorgeous, I saw it first hand right after JB bought it in Portland.

I am not at all a color expert but it doesnt have that obvious AT look to when you examine it. When I say that I mean that while it is wildly toned it doesnt have that "cooked on look" if you know what I mean.

As far as whether it is AT or not, who can really say for sure...?

I know that I would love to own the coin either way... just not at the price that JB had to pay...

But hey, he is the color man...

V.r,
John

JrGMan2004

Wow.................

jbsteven

Stuart

I believe it to be a AU55.

coiult.

I agree I paid a little more than most people would for the coin but we only live once and I LIKE IT! These kinds of coins are the ones that get my blood pumping.

Russ

<< <i>Russ, you didn't go over my head on that one. >>



Didn't expect that it would.

Russ, NCNE

TONEDDOLLARS

Is not Bob Campbell a toning expert ?

jbsteven

<< <i>Is not Bob Campbell a toning expert ? >>



I would say he is an expert on toning.

TONEDDOLLARS

So would I.

Russ

<< <i><< Is not Bob Campbell a toning expert ? >>

I would say he is an expert on toning. >>



Who was selling a coin.

Russ, NCNE

jbsteven

<< <i>Who was selling a coin. >>



you asked for it

coinlieutenant

You are in it fine as I am sure that you know JB...

The coin is really nice and let us know how the slabbing goes...

John

stman

Would just like to mention. I'm not doubting the opinion of Bob Campbell.

I just wouldn't be a buyer of this coin as a stone original (unmolested) coin. Yeah, I know you weren't trying to sell it to me just thought I'd mention this.

jbsteven

any other opinions?

coinguy1

<< <i>any other opinions? >>

JB, since you asked....

I think it's gorgeous but, if the images are accurate, not "market acceptable". The color glows too much and in the wrong shades, IMO. I am either right or wrong, nothing in between

And, my opinion will not change, even if it makes it into a PCGS or NGC slab.

stman

Stuart

I do like the "pull-away" toning at the bottom of the date, which is one of the natural toning phenomena. But, I'm not a toned coin expert...

foodude

Jason,
Will you be bringing that coin to Central States? I'd like to see it in person.

stman

I understand these diagnostics are helpful, but these things just don't tone like this naturally. Uh oh, here comes the debate of what's natural. I do believe this thing has had some kind of "Help" along the way.

joecool

Very nice.....

byergo

I appreciate the look/colors, but unfortunately me thinks AT.

BigE

And the zinginer is!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't wait for the Coin World article, wonder if it s already written?----------------BigE

EVillageProwler

With this CBH, there appears to be 2 issues on the table: at vs nt and originality prior to the coloration.

It is hard for me to say w/ any degree of certainty re either issue, but I do know that oftentimes a cleaned coin will make a toned coin look "off" regardless of how it arrived at the color. A goodly percentage of the coins from the Pittman, Benson and the recent Milwaukee sales were "original" looking or attractively toned but in reality weren't truly original. If you look past the color, you will see telltale signs of hairlines and/or glossiness.

EVP

lordmarcovan

Oooh, that's purdy, be it NT or AT. If it didn't slab, that would still be a worthy keeper in an AirTite or Capital holder.

CalGold

<< <i>any other opinions? >>



I don't like it. Looks like the family cat used Liberty's face as a scratching post before the coin toned. I suspect that the magenta color is from mecurichrome applied to the wounds, and the blue is from the brusing that resulted from pressure applied to quell the bleeding.

If its slabs, it will be interesting to see how it grades.

CG

lordmarcovan

Man, tough crowd.

I still say I like it.

cosmicdebris

I like it.

Nysoto

This does not look like Wayte Raymond toning. Possibly long storage in a kraft envelope, or a shorter stint in a matchbox. People have been attempting to tone bust halves for many years - read "Bust Half Fever" Edgar Souders, 1994. Some are quite deceptive.

Kraft envelope storage is common for bust half collectors, whether this is AT or not is subjective, since there is no definition for AT. But the intent is to tone the coin. The Overton collection was stored in kraft envelopes, when the collection was to be auctioned in 1993, they were sent to grade and bodybagged for AT. When explained of the pedigree and accepted method of storage, they were slabbed, the auction was aborted and the collection was sold intact to a midwest collector.

I personally like "gray dirt" toning - a protective, original crust of gray patina developed over the years with proper storage away from contaminants. I store my coins in airtites or slabs, away from possible contaminants. Stewardship of coins for the next generation should be a concern for collectors.

FrattLaw

JB --- I'm not buying it. It does look like it's got some nice WR toning on the rims, but WR wouldn't explain the colors near & on top of the devices. Kraft envelope toning is a possiblity. I've seen some Peace dollars turn some vivid colors from them, but I would be surprised if the coin had both WR and Kraft toning. It doesn't make sense. First it sits in a WR album for 40 years and then someone removes it and puts it in a Kraft envelope. Possible, but not likely.

Bob Campbell is an expert though. Let's see what PCGS is going to say. Keep us posted.

Michael