There are actually 2 wars being fought here. The first one, and toughest one, is against the grading company, which has earned the reputation for being the clearing house for doctored cards. It would probably be tuff to have the owner convicted of out right fraud... because of the "opinion factor" when it comes to grading cards. But the real goal is just to get them to GO AWAY. If that could happen by 60 minutes doing a news story about the problems... that would be fine. If it could happen by the Attorney Generals office contacting the owner about a possible investigation that would be fine too. The Better Business Bureu, the local news stations in Tampa, the FBI's Internet Fraud Hotline, ... the list is fairly long of organizations that could "look into" his business practices and make him realize that his days are numbered.
There are many angles to pursue when going after a business. His company claims to reject trimmed cards, and they are selling a service for card authentication, so it could be something as simple as a few small law suites for "false advertising." If he was forced to reinbursing a few buyers for the losses they took on a Mint 10 Mantle, I'd imagine he'd fold up pretty quick. I don't know which angle would work the best, or the fastest, but I'm certain if enough of us try different angles that one of them will stick.
The second war is against the guys that are actually doing the trimming and reselling... they should be a little easier to close down because the trail is there, if you just look close enough. The local law enforcement in their home towns is the best way to get rid of them. If you file a report with the local police they have to look into it and they will usually follow up.... it may take a while, but it works.
These guys are not some big operation... they are just guys on computers like you and me. They log on, buy cards, trim them, send them to get holdered, and resell them. There is no grey area on this issue, they are straight up working a con to defraud people of money. I hear people say that you can't get rid of them because it's not illegal to trim a card. That is true. It is also not illegal to roll back the odometer on your own car if it's parked in your garage ... it is your car and you can do with it as you please. What is illegal ... is to roll back the odometer in an attempt to defraud either a buyer or the MVA into thinking the car has less miles on it. If you buy a card and want to trim it and hang it on your wall... you're fine. But if you buy a card and trim it, with the intent of defrauding people out of money ... that is illegal.
I also would think that by catching a few of the trimmers... it might be the best way to bring down the mother ship PRO. There are only a handfull of people that submit cards to him, and if they stop submitting cards, then he has no income coming in ... and no reason to stay in business. I also find it hard to believe that a couple of the trimmers wouldn't "roll over on him" when faced with criminal fraud charges... you know he's probably had several conversations about the ethics of what he's doing with some of his better customers. And I'd also bet that he's not been content with the money he makes for just grading cards... and if you dig deep enough you'll probably find a link between him and some of the resellers.
Good points! I doubt that local law enforcement would stem the activity much... anyone can trim cards in the privacy of their home. And it'd be pretty easy for most of these guys to say they have multiple copies of each card and keep the trimmed ones for themselves only. Unless a concerted effort were to be made, they would most likely get away with it. The police would most likely file these cases with stolen cars and burglaries.
But, this story might have enough scandal and sex appeal for a news outfit to take on! And really, that may be more effective in the long run because it will ruin the name of PRO et al. The potential downside is that it will ruin the card grading business as a whole. Let's face it, knowledgable collectors know the difference in the initials of the grading companies, but to the unwitting newbie, the initials are all the same. If they are scared away entirely for fear of getting scammed to to their lack of knowledge, then the entire grading community is harmed.
We need to find a way to besmirch PRO and their cronies without doing it to PSA, GAI, SGC, etc. maybe a 60 Minutes story that includes PSA/BGS/GAI/SGC as sources for credible grading would do it.
See trimming cards is not a "crime". I can trim all my cards and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
BUUUUUUT
When a company "backs" the authenticity of a card (and states that it is "unaltered") you can "go after" said company Im sure for "something" when the card is (appears) "altered".
Any "moron" can use a ruler. If the card is supposed to be 25mm and its 19mm bells and whistles should be going off. (guessing here with the mm) depending on what the "grace" size is.
So I could care less who trimmed the cards. THAT is their card and they can do with it what they please. BUT when a "company" puts their name on a product as "unaltered" and it is (and easily noticed) that company needs to be looked into.
Technically, you are right. But who is the governing body to determine if a card is trimmed? Who has the authority to prosecute based on knowledge? And since most people consider sheet-cut cards to be legit (at least authentic and un-altered) who is the grand poobah that draws the line in the sand at what is legitimately trimmed and what is illegally trimmed?
Plus, none of these grading companies can admit (under oath) to being 100% accurate in their grading acumen. This actually works in PRO's favor because they could use that testimony as a crutch. And because of this reality, all the grading companies want to stay mum on the topic so they can keep collectors and dealers optimistic about their product/service in effort to protect the bottom line. Once PRO gets nailed, how long before some other disgruntled dealer/collector goes after PSA/BGS/GAI/SGC on the same grounds? As collectors we may know the difference between services, but the legal system doesn't.
If this crime is so readily punishable, why are all the same scammers still out there after all these years? The tales on this forum alone are hair-raising. Yet, every day these scum are still out there pushing their doctored wares. Unless they do something very blatant, they remain outside the reach of the legal system. And they never stay still in one method/venue/ID long enough that the law can put a good bead on them.
The other issue is the growing epidemic of fraud, especially the internet variety. So many cases are reported daily that law enforcement cannot begin to deal with them because the manpower is not available to follow up, investigate, arrest, and indict these individuals. I cannot quote a specific number of cases, but it numbers in the tens of thousands monthly in this country alone. It is running amok.
Are you starting to see now why this is a nearly impenetrable crime. The only way it can be policed is by the public at large. Collectors need to stay away. The media could pressure them with bad press. These may be the best deterrents to this dirty little industry that we can dish up. And that sucks.
Education followed by action (or non-action) is the only power we have.
<< If this crime is so readily punishable, why are all the same scammers still out there after all these years? ...... Unless they do something very blatant, they remain outside the reach of the legal system. ..... So many cases are reported daily that law enforcement cannot begin to deal with them because the manpower is not available to follow up, investigate, arrest, and indict these individuals. >>
Con,
Actually I have found that to be kind of a myth. I have gone after about 5 different trimmers in the last 2 years. Several of them have had long threads on these boards, and almost every time I contacted the local authorities in the trimmers home town (and the postal inspectors), I found out that either I was the only one that made the call, or I was one of about two or three people that called. On several of them, they didn't know anything about what was going on until I spoke with them.
I used to try and rally the victims together and would give them the information to go after the seller. After a while, when I didn't see the seller leaving ebay I started to wonder what was going on, and as it turned out 95% of the buyers never made the calls. I don't know if it's the embarresment factor of "being taken" or what, but I learned that if you want it done... you've got to do it yourself.
The local authorities will investigate these matters, and they usually come through in the end. These "hidden feedback" guys are a little harder because I can't furnish the police with the names of the victims, and the links to all of their buying habits. I've also learned that if I do most of the legwork, and basically lay the evidence in their lap, that the process happens much faster. Most of these trimmers don't really need to be indicted or even arrested to dissapear. The investigator knocking on their door or the Postal Inspector calling them is usually enough to scare them straight.
That's why I'm always trying to recruit others to make the calls and send the e-mails. If you know of any information on the buyers, or the sellers alias names, or the sellers ebay names that they buy under... it is all a huge help. Even if it's just a standard complaint to look into it... that helps too. The authorities move a lot faster when there's 20 people calling versus two people calling. These problems are much, much easier to solve than most people think. It just takes some time and effort on everyone's part.
I realize that there will always be some trimmers out there, and we can't catch them all. But we sure can lessen the impact it has on the hobby by chasing off the bigger fish in the pond.
I've got to go now.... because I have some more calls to make.
First, let me say thanks for your hard work to thwart these crooks. It sounds like you have had more than a modicum of success. And you're right. If enough people make enough noise, authorities will respond. But, they don't make it easy. At least per my experience. I was victimized by a scammer in RI. Not trimming. Just garden variety fraud to the tune of $855. Early on in my efforts to get this person in legal trouble, I contacted the seller's hometwon police. I tried to alert them and hopefully file a report. My call was quickly terminated because I needed to go to the station in person to even so much as just file a complaint. It was a 2 hour drive each way. I hired a P.I. to follow this individual's trail (that's how I got the address). I asked the police if the P.I. could file for me. No go. Basically, I became too frustrated to pursue it any furhter than protecting myself through my Amex.
If I put in more time (and money) I may have had success. But, let's face it, they already stole my money. I can get that back. But, if they steal my time, I'll never get that back.
I know it's not the most persistent action to take. But I tried. If you have a system where action can be taken by phone calls and emails, I will happily donate my efforts to this cause. Feel free to PM me with the facts if you care not to post them here.
That would be great.... the more people that call, the faster they dissapear. Let's start with one I've been hearing a lot about lately.... the t2 guy.
I honestly haven't looked into his dealings much, but I'm sure a quick search of the past threads on the boards will give you a clear trail to follow. Just gather enough info to steer them in the right direction, and as much evidence as you can find. I'm pretty sure his buyer and seller names are listed in some of these threads, and I think I remember someone showing links to "before" and "after" cards. Just make sure you have something ... as I've looked into a few people before that I heard rumors about (on these boards) and found them to be just that.... rumors and false alligations.
Anyway, If you find what you're looking for... you just need to make a few calls. I prefer the telephone over e-mails when it comes to filing these complaints. It makes the complaint more personal, and you get a feel for how serious they are taking you. (I try to make the conversation stick strictly to the topic of an individual commiting fraud, internet fraud, mail fraud, deception, the amount of money involved, and the number of victims. Try not to talk too much about ebay, trimming sportscards, grading issues, ethics, ruining the hobby, etc... It just puts you into the "strange disgruntled ebayer" catagory if you come off that way.
The three people to contact with all of your information would be:
1. The local police in his hometown. In this instance it would be Captain Mark Duper at 562-861-0771 (The Chief of Police there might also be helpful: Chief John Finch)
2. USPS Inspector Generals Office at 1-800-372-8347
3. The Federal Trade Commission at 1-877-382-4357
All of these places have e-mail links, but I found that the phone works much, much better.
I also found if the local police don't give you satisfaction, that a call to the Mayor's office or some of the County Council Members of the town goes a long way... there's nothing like a note in your in-box from the Mayor's office to get you motivated. I'm sure you can get there phone numbers from information, or on the web.
Remember, all it usually takes is for one or two of these people to "look into" or contact the con-man and you'll see them disapear. You don't have to file charges, go to court, or do any of that other legal stuff... if they find enough evidence they will follow through with everything. The whole goal on our part is to get the "trimmer" to stop trimming ... and go away.
Good Luck and feel free to e-mail or PM me if you need any help.
Not sure if this link Internet Fraud Complaint Center has been posted on this thread but it's the FBI's internet arm . A group of eBayers used this to put the stop to a pack manufacturer on eBay in 2002. There are forms to fill out but they do respond and I believe that the scumbag was eventually prosecuted as Anne Arundel County, MD got involved also. Some of the victims received money back from the state as well as from eBays fraud protection. I don't believe that card trimming is any less insidious than pack manufacturing, it's fraud either way you cut it. (no pun intended)
Maybe some good can come out of this... maybe you could manage a thread on here of current trimmers/conmen that need to be stopped. If you could post some info regarding their address (town only) and local law enforcement contacts, you can get the members of this board to assist. Of course, as you said, we'll have to do a little legwork ourselves in order to sound plausible to the police, but I think it may be an effort worth making.
I'm not sure a public thread listing the names and personal info of POTENTIAL trimmers is a good idea.
Like I mentioned before... I've seen people falsely accused on these boards before, and some people have hidden agendas. Don't believe everything you read ... because you don't want to start a lynch mob going after someone that might be innocent. I do most of my investigating "out of the public eye" and PM and e-mail people to swap personal information... rather than post it on open threads.
Also, many of the trimmers watch these boards, and if they see their name pop up... they'll switch ebay names and dissapear over night.
That's why I try to share the links, numbers and process with eveyone .... to get more people involved in helping to stop these guys. There's enough talent on these boards to probably take out the majority of the bigger trimmers, doctors, and con men ... if just a few people do a little research and make a few calls.
The only problem I have with "trimmers" are how can you prove it? If I have 100 trimmed cards and I didnt trim them, and do not have the knowledge they were/are trimmed what can you do?
I think it is the grading companies that need to be "policed" into a little better checks and balances. Look at my FGS scan earlier in this thread. If I were to send that in (in its state, bad corner ding, before it was encapsulated) and it gets a "10" who is to blame? The grading company or the person who submitted the card?
As someone stated earlier, there are no "rules" for card grading. Are UD cards the same size as Fleer and Topps? Thickness, etc.?
What we need is some type of "independent" that can make some rules with the support of the card companies. While I may not be able to "eyeball" a card and tell if it is Gem 10, I do know how to use a ruler, square, magnifying glass, light table, etc.
Gee its my idea now who has the drive and will to help out? What would "we" need to do to get a ball rolling like this?
I was off this past week on a mini-vacation...however prior to leaving I sent a complaint to eBay...stating my case for "private auctions" as well as the situation with regards to PRO cards...much to my chargrin...they did not reply...I also had a friend of mine do the same thing...no reply...
So what does that mean? No reply? My friend told me..."that was their reply"...
Henri Collector Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
Comments
You are correct.... always follow the money.
There are actually 2 wars being fought here. The first one, and toughest one, is against the grading company, which has earned the reputation for being the clearing house for doctored cards. It would probably be tuff to have the owner convicted of out right fraud... because of the "opinion factor" when it comes to grading cards. But the real goal is just to get them to GO AWAY. If that could happen by 60 minutes doing a news story about the problems... that would be fine. If it could happen by the Attorney Generals office contacting the owner about a possible investigation that would be fine too. The Better Business Bureu, the local news stations in Tampa, the FBI's Internet Fraud Hotline, ... the list is fairly long of organizations that could "look into" his business practices and make him realize that his days are numbered.
There are many angles to pursue when going after a business. His company claims to reject trimmed cards, and they are selling a service for card authentication, so it could be something as simple as a few small law suites for "false advertising." If he was forced to reinbursing a few buyers for the losses they took on a Mint 10 Mantle, I'd imagine he'd fold up pretty quick. I don't know which angle would work the best, or the fastest, but I'm certain if enough of us try different angles that one of them will stick.
The second war is against the guys that are actually doing the trimming and reselling... they should be a little easier to close down because the trail is there, if you just look close enough. The local law enforcement in their home towns is the best way to get rid of them. If you file a report with the local police they have to look into it and they will usually follow up.... it may take a while, but it works.
These guys are not some big operation... they are just guys on computers like you and me. They log on, buy cards, trim them, send them to get holdered, and resell them. There is no grey area on this issue, they are straight up working a con to defraud people of money. I hear people say that you can't get rid of them because it's not illegal to trim a card. That is true. It is also not illegal to roll back the odometer on your own car if it's parked in your garage ... it is your car and you can do with it as you please. What is illegal ... is to roll back the odometer in an attempt to defraud either a buyer or the MVA into thinking the car has less miles on it. If you buy a card and want to trim it and hang it on your wall... you're fine. But if you buy a card and trim it, with the intent of defrauding people out of money ... that is illegal.
I also would think that by catching a few of the trimmers... it might be the best way to bring down the mother ship PRO. There are only a handfull of people that submit cards to him, and if they stop submitting cards, then he has no income coming in ... and no reason to stay in business. I also find it hard to believe that a couple of the trimmers wouldn't "roll over on him" when faced with criminal fraud charges... you know he's probably had several conversations about the ethics of what he's doing with some of his better customers. And I'd also bet that he's not been content with the money he makes for just grading cards... and if you dig deep enough you'll probably find a link between him and some of the resellers.
Always follow the money!
Mike
Good points! I doubt that local law enforcement would stem the activity much... anyone can trim cards in the privacy of their home. And it'd be pretty easy for most of these guys to say they have multiple copies of each card and keep the trimmed ones for themselves only. Unless a concerted effort were to be made, they would most likely get away with it. The police would most likely file these cases with stolen cars and burglaries.
But, this story might have enough scandal and sex appeal for a news outfit to take on! And really, that may be more effective in the long run because it will ruin the name of PRO et al. The potential downside is that it will ruin the card grading business as a whole. Let's face it, knowledgable collectors know the difference in the initials of the grading companies, but to the unwitting newbie, the initials are all the same. If they are scared away entirely for fear of getting scammed to to their lack of knowledge, then the entire grading community is harmed.
We need to find a way to besmirch PRO and their cronies without doing it to PSA, GAI, SGC, etc. maybe a 60 Minutes story that includes PSA/BGS/GAI/SGC as sources for credible grading would do it.
BUUUUUUT
When a company "backs" the authenticity of a card (and states that it is "unaltered") you can "go after" said company Im sure for "something" when the card is (appears) "altered".
Any "moron" can use a ruler. If the card is supposed to be 25mm and its 19mm bells and whistles should be going off. (guessing here with the mm) depending on what the "grace" size is.
So I could care less who trimmed the cards. THAT is their card and they can do with it what they please. BUT when a "company" puts their name on a product as "unaltered" and it is (and easily noticed) that company needs to be looked into.
Could this be something the BBB would look into?
Technically, you are right. But who is the governing body to determine if a card is trimmed? Who has the authority to prosecute based on knowledge? And since most people consider sheet-cut cards to be legit (at least authentic and un-altered) who is the grand poobah that draws the line in the sand at what is legitimately trimmed and what is illegally trimmed?
Plus, none of these grading companies can admit (under oath) to being 100% accurate in their grading acumen. This actually works in PRO's favor because they could use that testimony as a crutch. And because of this reality, all the grading companies want to stay mum on the topic so they can keep collectors and dealers optimistic about their product/service in effort to protect the bottom line. Once PRO gets nailed, how long before some other disgruntled dealer/collector goes after PSA/BGS/GAI/SGC on the same grounds? As collectors we may know the difference between services, but the legal system doesn't.
If this crime is so readily punishable, why are all the same scammers still out there after all these years? The tales on this forum alone are hair-raising. Yet, every day these scum are still out there pushing their doctored wares. Unless they do something very blatant, they remain outside the reach of the legal system. And they never stay still in one method/venue/ID long enough that the law can put a good bead on them.
The other issue is the growing epidemic of fraud, especially the internet variety. So many cases are reported daily that law enforcement cannot begin to deal with them because the manpower is not available to follow up, investigate, arrest, and indict these individuals. I cannot quote a specific number of cases, but it numbers in the tens of thousands monthly in this country alone. It is running amok.
Are you starting to see now why this is a nearly impenetrable crime. The only way it can be policed is by the public at large. Collectors need to stay away. The media could pressure them with bad press. These may be the best deterrents to this dirty little industry that we can dish up. And that sucks.
Education followed by action (or non-action) is the only power we have.
..... So many cases are reported daily that law enforcement cannot begin to deal with them because the manpower is not available to follow up, investigate, arrest, and indict these individuals. >>
Con,
Actually I have found that to be kind of a myth. I have gone after about 5 different trimmers in the last 2 years. Several of them have had long threads on these boards, and almost every time I contacted the local authorities in the trimmers home town (and the postal inspectors), I found out that either I was the only one that made the call, or I was one of about two or three people that called. On several of them, they didn't know anything about what was going on until I spoke with them.
I used to try and rally the victims together and would give them the information to go after the seller. After a while, when I didn't see the seller leaving ebay I started to wonder what was going on, and as it turned out 95% of the buyers never made the calls. I don't know if it's the embarresment factor of "being taken" or what, but I learned that if you want it done... you've got to do it yourself.
The local authorities will investigate these matters, and they usually come through in the end. These "hidden feedback" guys are a little harder because I can't furnish the police with the names of the victims, and the links to all of their buying habits. I've also learned that if I do most of the legwork, and basically lay the evidence in their lap, that the process happens much faster. Most of these trimmers don't really need to be indicted or even arrested to dissapear. The investigator knocking on their door or the Postal Inspector calling them is usually enough to scare them straight.
That's why I'm always trying to recruit others to make the calls and send the e-mails. If you know of any information on the buyers, or the sellers alias names, or the sellers ebay names that they buy under... it is all a huge help. Even if it's just a standard complaint to look into it... that helps too. The authorities move a lot faster when there's 20 people calling versus two people calling. These problems are much, much easier to solve than most people think. It just takes some time and effort on everyone's part.
I realize that there will always be some trimmers out there, and we can't catch them all. But we sure can lessen the impact it has on the hobby by chasing off the bigger fish in the pond.
I've got to go now.... because I have some more calls to make.
Mike
First, let me say thanks for your hard work to thwart these crooks. It sounds like you have had more than a modicum of success. And you're right. If enough people make enough noise, authorities will respond. But, they don't make it easy. At least per my experience. I was victimized by a scammer in RI. Not trimming. Just garden variety fraud to the tune of $855. Early on in my efforts to get this person in legal trouble, I contacted the seller's hometwon police. I tried to alert them and hopefully file a report. My call was quickly terminated because I needed to go to the station in person to even so much as just file a complaint. It was a 2 hour drive each way. I hired a P.I. to follow this individual's trail (that's how I got the address). I asked the police if the P.I. could file for me. No go. Basically, I became too frustrated to pursue it any furhter than protecting myself through my Amex.
If I put in more time (and money) I may have had success. But, let's face it, they already stole my money. I can get that back. But, if they steal my time, I'll never get that back.
I know it's not the most persistent action to take. But I tried. If you have a system where action can be taken by phone calls and emails, I will happily donate my efforts to this cause. Feel free to PM me with the facts if you care not to post them here.
That would be great.... the more people that call, the faster they dissapear. Let's start with one I've been hearing a lot about lately.... the t2 guy.
I honestly haven't looked into his dealings much, but I'm sure a quick search of the past threads on the boards will give you a clear trail to follow. Just gather enough info to steer them in the right direction, and as much evidence as you can find. I'm pretty sure his buyer and seller names are listed in some of these threads, and I think I remember someone showing links to "before" and "after" cards. Just make sure you have something ... as I've looked into a few people before that I heard rumors about (on these boards) and found them to be just that.... rumors and false alligations.
Anyway, If you find what you're looking for... you just need to make a few calls. I prefer the telephone over e-mails when it comes to filing these complaints. It makes the complaint more personal, and you get a feel for how serious they are taking you. (I try to make the conversation stick strictly to the topic of an individual commiting fraud, internet fraud, mail fraud, deception, the amount of money involved, and the number of victims. Try not to talk too much about ebay, trimming sportscards, grading issues, ethics, ruining the hobby, etc... It just puts you into the "strange disgruntled ebayer" catagory if you come off that way.
The three people to contact with all of your information would be:
1. The local police in his hometown. In this instance it would be Captain Mark Duper at 562-861-0771 (The Chief of Police there might also be helpful: Chief John Finch)
2. USPS Inspector Generals Office at 1-800-372-8347
3. The Federal Trade Commission at 1-877-382-4357
All of these places have e-mail links, but I found that the phone works much, much better.
I also found if the local police don't give you satisfaction, that a call to the Mayor's office or some of the County Council Members of the town goes a long way... there's nothing like a note in your in-box from the Mayor's office to get you motivated. I'm sure you can get there phone numbers from information, or on the web.
Remember, all it usually takes is for one or two of these people to "look into" or contact the con-man and you'll see them disapear. You don't have to file charges, go to court, or do any of that other legal stuff... if they find enough evidence they will follow through with everything. The whole goal on our part is to get the "trimmer" to stop trimming ... and go away.
Good Luck and feel free to e-mail or PM me if you need any help.
Mike
Dave
Now collecting:
Topps Heritage
1957 Topps BB Ex+-NM
All Yaz Items 7+
Various Red Sox
Did I leave anything out?
Maybe some good can come out of this... maybe you could manage a thread on here of current trimmers/conmen that need to be stopped. If you could post some info regarding their address (town only) and local law enforcement contacts, you can get the members of this board to assist. Of course, as you said, we'll have to do a little legwork ourselves in order to sound plausible to the police, but I think it may be an effort worth making.
I'm not sure a public thread listing the names and personal info of POTENTIAL trimmers is a good idea.
Like I mentioned before... I've seen people falsely accused on these boards before, and some people have hidden agendas. Don't believe everything you read ... because you don't want to start a lynch mob going after someone that might be innocent. I do most of my investigating "out of the public eye" and PM and e-mail people to swap personal information... rather than post it on open threads.
Also, many of the trimmers watch these boards, and if they see their name pop up... they'll switch ebay names and dissapear over night.
That's why I try to share the links, numbers and process with eveyone .... to get more people involved in helping to stop these guys. There's enough talent on these boards to probably take out the majority of the bigger trimmers, doctors, and con men ... if just a few people do a little research and make a few calls.
Mike
The only problem I have with "trimmers" are how can you prove it? If I have 100 trimmed cards and I didnt trim them, and do not have the knowledge they were/are trimmed what can you do?
I think it is the grading companies that need to be "policed" into a little better checks and balances. Look at my FGS scan earlier in this thread. If I were to send that in (in its state, bad corner ding, before it was encapsulated) and it gets a "10" who is to blame? The grading company or the person who submitted the card?
As someone stated earlier, there are no "rules" for card grading. Are UD cards the same size as Fleer and Topps? Thickness, etc.?
What we need is some type of "independent" that can make some rules with the support of the card companies. While I may not be able to "eyeball" a card and tell if it is Gem 10, I do know how to use a ruler, square, magnifying glass, light table, etc.
Gee its my idea now who has the drive and will to help out? What would "we" need to do to get a ball rolling like this?
So what does that mean? No reply? My friend told me..."that was their reply"...
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets