I don't know...maybe it can't be fixed
HammeringHank
Posts: 232 ✭
Take a look at this guy...who is t2inc?...nothing but 50/50 centered vinatage PRO cards...he's got around 50 of them...all doctored...and people are scrambing to buy his stuff...it makes me sick! First it's almost impossible to find many of these cards centered...and then to find them as "supposed" high grades is ridiculous...this guy makes around $3000 a week selling this trash...and there is apparently nothing stopping him...
t2inc's collection of card for sale!
t2inc's collection of card for sale!
Henri
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
0
Comments
it's the honest buyers/sellers that get screwed on ebay i feel...i.e. retalitory negatives, no product delivered, etc.
edited to say: he keeps his feedback private so nobody can contact "winners" after the fact either.......
Jason
Our current ebay auctions, and of course BaseBallCardHeaven.com
a) You knowingly overgrade, or otherwise misrepresent, raw cards when you sell them at auction.
b) You bid on an item and do not pay if you are the high bidder.
c) You sell an item and do not deliver when paid, or refuse to deliver for the price the item realized.
You are not ebay scum if you sell an item, and deliver the promised item upon receipt of payment. I don't care what it is. Are all of this guy's cards trimmed? Almost certainly. But so what? These aren't the dead sea scrolls, there frickin' baseball cards.
I don't feel an ounce of pity for the buyers, and it baffles me that others here do. When I first started 'ebaying', I made any manner of dumb purchases. I won every auction I bid on, ridiculously overpaid for worthless cards, etc. etc.---- but one thing I did NOT do was bid on cards in off-brand holders. It took me all of about 10 minutes to realize if an 89 UD Griffey was selling for 3 grand in a PSA 10 holder, and 250 bucks in a GEM or USA holder, then there is probably a reason why the off-brand holders didn't sell for as much. I didn't know why exactly the off-brands weren't as highly valued, but it didn't matter. I knew that others who'd been doing this for longer than I had probably knew something I didn't, so I stayed away.
ANY MORON SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE THIS COGNITIVE LEAP. I did, and most of you did. Those who are too stupid to make it will hemhorrage their money one way or another, so it might as well go to PRO dealers as opposed to scratch-off lottery tickets or 'toss a ring around the monkey' carnival games. What do I care? And what do you care? Dumb people, as a rule, just can't hold their dough. It's unfortunate, but that doesn't change the fact that it's simply the way of things.
I have never trimmed a card, and I never will. I think it's borderline unethical, and it turns people off from the hobby. But for Christ's sake, that doesn't mean it's a mortal sin. People get jobbed out of money by nickle-ante hucksters all the time, and the PRO racket is simply one more in a long line of two-bit con jobs. And all of this talk distracts us from the central point, which is: If the guy is delivering the cards as they appear in auction then ebay will not, and should not, prohibit them from plying their trade.
This PRO thing works one of two ways. Either a) the buyers know the cards are trimmed, in which case the point is moot, or b) They think the cards are legit, and believe they're 'getting one over' on a hapless seller by buying a card for 10% of it's true worth. In the case of 'a', this talk is obviously over. 'b' is a little stickier, but what can't be argued is that in this scenerio you have someone-- a buyer, in this case-- who thinks he's going to bend over an ignorant seller on a sports collectible. So who feels sorry for the moron in 'b'?
<< <i>And all of this talk distracts us from the central point, which is: If the guy is delivering the cards as they appear in auction then ebay will not, and should not, prohibit them from plying their trade. >>
There is a "con" going...even though it is sublimatively applied...here it is...first it's graded card...meant to be perceived as being authentic...second they generally give away a PSA card...so you'll look because you see the name PSA (that's why they do it)...it's NEVER...1958 PRO Mantle card...and then the cards is timmed...so there is deception going on here...and that is the intent of the seller to deceive...it's our job to point out this flaw to eBay...just as so many on this forum like to point out the flaws of PSA...maybe eBay never consider this loop-hole...
Does anyone really believe if I placed a transaction on eBay for a Rembrandt or Picasso...just a picture...and a certification dumbed up my the Museum of Detroit...that states that this is a Picacco...that I wouldn't be getting a knock on my door from the police...
These transactions are meant to deceive...nothing else...that makes them fraudulent...and eBay should be notified of this...
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
<< <i>They think the cards are legit, and believe they're 'getting one over' on a hapless seller by buying a card for 10% of it's true worth. >>
Boopotts
I don't know about the feeling sorry thing but the person who bids on a 'spammed' Pro card is most likely buying from a Powerseller - I think it may be a stretch to jump into their head and assume that they think they are 'getting one over' on a powerseller. In that case, they may BE suffering from diminished capacity. What do ya think?
Mike
They put the card up for auction, someone bids and pays, and the card AS DESCRIBED is delivered. End of story. I don't like it either, but 'not liking' something doesn't give you moral authority to prohibit it.
<< <i>Just because something is 'meant to deceive' doesn't mean it's illegal. Kenny Goldin's act was 'meant to deceive', and nothing stopped him.
They put the card up for auction, someone bids and pays, and the card AS DESCRIBED is delivered. End of story. I don't like it either, but 'not liking' something doesn't give you moral authority to prohibit it. >>
eh?
The card is not as described because it was not mentioned that the card (if it was) was altered.
Why is it that people have to have rules etched in stone before they will think it is "wrong"? Im not saying you follow this practice, But just becasue you can do something doesnt mean you should NOR should you be allowed to.
Some people that are "new" to the hobby or picking something up as a gift may not know. They look at a "graded" card and think it is legit, especially when there is not mention of the cards alteration or suspect of alteration. So how do "we" combat this? Well we cant inform the buyers but we can attempt to "shut" down the sellers.
I have a Lebron card graded 10 from FGA (**edit FGS***).... Looks like the card was dropped out a window. I would NEVER attempt to sell it. (came with a lot) yet some people would. Does that make them a "bad" person. Darn right it does.
<< <i>something doesn't give you moral authority to prohibit it. >>
WHAT? Are you kidding...you admit what they are doing is wrong...they are cheating using the system...it's deceptive...their cards are altered and it's not part of their description...if it were then I could understand your thinking...and yet we have no moral authority...wow...
What consitutes "right" and "wrong" to you...anything goes unless there is a law about it...or it's prohibited...that's why these things are called "con games" is because these people twist the system and exploit the innocent...with half-truths and mirrors...this is the same thing...and he have no moral authority...sorry...but I'm here to tell you we not only HAVE to...but we MUST act to get rid of this scum...
PRO is no innocent bystander...they know what is going on...they grade no common cards...all the cards they do grade are 7...7.5...8...8.5 etc...all star cards...all almost perfect cards...and they have no clue...WRONG...they know exactly what is going on...and when this finally hits the fan...I hope they get what's coming to them as well...
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
<< <i>I have never trimmed a card, and I never will. I think it's borderline unethical >>
Boopots
Could you please explain what you mean by 'borderline unethical?' Thanx,
Mike
You are absolutley correct in emphasizing that PRO is at the heart of these unscrupulous dealings. Without them, the dealers have no veil to hide behind to sell their worthless product. PRO is the criminal entity here. The dealers (and eBay even) may know these cards are unlikely to be authentic, but they are unethically (not illegally) travelling within legal parameters.
If you want to stop this rotten cottage industry, you have to stop PRO... they will always have a steady supply of stooges to hawk their wares. But, without PRO, those same stooges will have nothing to hawk!
Any ideas how to stop PRO?
And the nice sharp corner which makes it very deserving a 10.
<< Are all of this guy's cards trimmed? Almost certainly. But so what? These aren't the dead sea scrolls, there frickin' baseball cards.
I don't feel an ounce of pity for the buyers, and it baffles me that others here do. >>
Do the little kids cry very loud when you snatch the bag of Halloween candy out of their hands?
Mike
and now that everyone knows that BGS has the 1/32 rule, many trimmers are using them, raking in way more money than before. almost every card known to man be trimmed and sent to BGS, but people haven't stopped buying them. so why is PRO in the wrong, but because it's BGS its OK?
Relax. I'm not an ogre. You can disagree with my position, but I don't see the imperitive for wise-ass remarks.
Let's put it this way: If it suddenly came to light that roughly 20% of all PSA slabs currently in circulation were WIWAG jobs, and that roughly 20% were trimmed cards that had slipped by PSA's graders, how would you feel about people selling PSA slabs online? After all, at this point roughly 40% of the total slabs in circulation are either fraudulent or contain altered cards. Would you insist that all sellers' auctions contain the caveat that 'this card has a 40% of not being what it appears to be?'
<< <i>roughly 20% of all PSA slabs currently in circulation were WIWAG jobs, and that roughly 20% were trimmed cards that had slipped by PSA's graders >>
Boopots
Although, IMO, your hypothetical is beyond the pale, if it did happen, the bottom [of the graded market] would fall out and there would be NO cards to sell - hypothetically speaking.
Mike
i must respectfully disagree with you. it is common knowledge on these boards that PRO cards are often trimmed. everyone on here knows that. but how many vintage collectors read these boards? maybe 5% total? that leaves 95% of collectors who get their vintage card info from elsewhere, mainly hobby mags (this is true for me at least before i found the boards). when is the last time you saw a reputable hobby publication, other than maybe BCBC (which has a very low circulation), mention anything about card trimming and PRO? none that i can remember. most warn about trimmed cards, but they usually give the "be safe, buy professionally graded cards" speech. i myself had no knowledge of PRO's antics prior to recently. so using the reason that "its the buyers fault that they dont know about PRO and their reputation" doesnt fly with me. the info isnt widely circulated in the hobby, save for various messageboards. and a large percantage of the collecting public doesnt read these. thats why they still sell on ebay. you can blame people who buy PRO cards knowing their reputation, but i doubt many people would drop hundreds of dollars knowing the card was altered.
who does that leave? the dealers who trim or alter cards, and pass them off as (supposedly) authentic. they know what theyre doing, they know its unethical and illegal, and they continue to do it because they know they can screw people. sounds like theyre to blame to me.
heres another similar scenario. how about people who counterfeit money then pass it off as real? is it the guy at best buy's fault that he unknowingly took counterfeit money? are you going to place the blame on him? i sure hope not.
we need to get rid of this "buyer beware" mentality. buyers on ebay should have the comfort that they can purchase items sight unseen and not have to worry about anything. its our right as consumers. the only blame that can be placed here is on the trimmers, PRO, and ebay for not shutting them down.
the buyers are not at fault.
Well said...
By the way I asked Joe Orlando if I could write an article about the whole mess...regarding PRO and trimmed cards...he politely declined...because it would look like PSA was knocking a competitor...da!
Joe...if you read this by any chance...I think regardless of how it looks...I think you should stand up and be counted...the hobby needs someone other than me...my voice is not loud enough...I'm not a major player in the market...what PRO is doing is not at the best interest of the hobby...they need to be attacked (questioned) about their veracity...and I'm willing to put my name on the line...even write that this is not a shared opinion of PSA...but mine entirely...
Someone out there please...HELP...
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
Great post (as usual), and I agree with much of what you say. To clarify:
1) I don't think PRO is good for the hobby.
2) I do wish people would stop selling PRO slabs on ebay.
3) I applaud samsammy and others' attempts to educated people about PRO.
But even with that being said, there's a huge difference between saying 'I don't approve' and 'I think it should be prohibited'. For example: I hate hip hop, and all heavy metal recorded after 1991 (or thereabouts), but that doesn't mean I think it should be taken off the shelf. Or, I don't approve of George Bush's presidency, but I certainly don't think people should be prohibited from voting for him. And on and on.
The fact is still this: A guy is selling a card in a PRO holder. Someone pays, and he delivers. It's that simple. Is the card trimmed? Almost certainly. But that does nothing to negate the fact that the seller has lived up to his end of the transaction, and that's all you can judge. Why, you ask, is that all you can judge? Because you don't know the other circumstances behind the transaction. for instance: Say a guy who's down on his luck lends a good friend 200 bucks, and takes a PRO graded 65 Mantle as collateral. The buddy dies in a car wreck (or skips town, or is otherwise not available to pay back the loan), so the guy sells the card to a sleazy card shop owner who still isn't really up to speed on the graded card market. The card shop dealer, however, does know that 'mint' slabbed cards sell for an extraordinary premium, so he lowballs the guy with a 100$ offer. The guy's desperate, so he sells. Later that dealer finds this web page, and reads this thread; immediately he tried to hunt the seller down and demand a refund. What do you say? If you're like me, you say TOUGH. It's the card shop owner's job to know what he's buying and selling; if he doesn't take the time to learn, then he needs to graciously accept the consequences.
This above scenerio, while somewhat outlandish, isn't markedly different than the one where the ebay buyer hits the BIN on a PRO card, thinking he's made a huge score. In both cases the purchaser did not act under duress, and was entirely free to decline the offer. In both cases the buyer thought he was getting a great deal. The only difference is in the intentions of the seller; but how can you ban, or prohibit something, based on what might be the intentions of some of the participants? Take the phenomena of nude dancing. Some women may become strippers to pay for college, or support a family; not a bad intention, really, as far as that kind of thing goes. Yet some may become strippers because they hate men, and by stripping they feel like they've further cheapened the male gender (BTW, this is probably a good time to announce that I do not frequent strip bars, and never intend to). In the first case the seller's intentions are in perfect accord with larger societal values; in the second case she's not. But you obviously can't say 'nobody that hates men can become a stripper'. That's ridiculous. Just as you can't say 'Nobody can sell PRO cards that knows their trimmed'.
Personally, I feel that if you won't take the time to learn a little about the collectible which you're about to drop 500$ on (in the case of the '68 Ryan), you deserve what's coming to you. But that point is peripheal; the larger point is that you can't start banning stuff because it offends your sensibilities. It was that point, which was made by the original poster, on which I was focusing my initial response; if I digressed I apologize. But the fact of my digression does nothing to mitigate my central point, which I also articulated in my original post, and have further articulated here.
<< <i>I shared a little about him in this thread last week. He's graduated from grading his trimmed stuff with PRO to grading his trimmed stuff with BGS. Should be more money in it that way. Ebay shouldn't allow him or anyone else to have private feedback. Just wear your past transactions with pride or shame, don't run from them.
Jason >>
By my count, I see 6 PSA graded cards, and 3 BGS graded cards...I guess he's graduated on to PSA now?????
Collecting all bowman chrome rc's from 2002 and 2003
<< <i>that you can't start banning stuff because it offends your sensibilities >>
Boopots
I agree that an expression of your civil liberties like freedom of speech and expression are guaranteed and protected under the constitution. And, if someone doesn't like it, they can go pound sand.
The sale of 'trimmed' cards is immoral and may actually break some statute under the law - and if so, goes beyond an offense of sensibility.
Mike
We discussed the question via email and he answered the best he was able in the vintage voice section. However, he could not come out and say anything negative or that would probably reflect badly on all of the grading companies.
When PRO grades a card are they actually authenticating it, and verifying it has not been trimmed? They are merely putting a grade on the card based on its current condition. PSA, SGC, BGS, GAI etc.. all state they are verifying it has not been altered and than putting a grade on the card. PRO makes no such claim I do not believe.
<< <i>PRO will not grade cards which bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity. In the vent PRO rejects any card for grading, the fee paid by the customer for the services WILL NOT be refunded because the determination to rejects a card will require a review by PRO's grading experts. >>
Aro
This is right off of the instruction/submission form off their website. What a bunch of ?><"PL":<>?:!!!!
Mike
Pro grading Edited with the site I got the information from - see terms item #2
You're right, I have yet to see such a claim. If it exists, my opinion on this matter would do a 180.
You're missing my point-- the sale of trimmed cards is NOT immoral. Let's say 2tinc dies, and his mother (he surely lives at home) finds his stash of PRO slabbed '62 Mays cards. Not knowing a thing about cards, she sells them on ebay. Is this immoral? Only a fool would contest that it is, since morality is irextricably tied to intent.
You can argue that it's immoral to knowingly sell trimmed cards AND represent them as unaltered, and I would wholly agree with you. But can you ban the sale of trimmed cards because some guys may do so knowingly? That doesn't wash. If you're going to ban it, then there has to be repercussions for doing it. Who wants to prohibit someone from selling online because he auctioned off his dead brother's collection of PRO cards? I don't, and I doubt you do either.
The 'buyer beware' philosophy is, as GoodRiddance suggested, fundamentally flawed. But it's all we have. Think of what Churchill said: 'Capitalism is the worst sort of economy, except for all the other economies (or something like that). The same applies here. You can't start banning people from ebay IF the deliver the goods as promised, since you then have to start determining the intent behind the sale. That's just impossible to do; or, if not impossible, at least costly and inefficient. So what you're left with is telling buyers to DO FIVE MINUTES OF RESEARCH BEFORE YOU PLUNK DOWN HALF A GRAND ON A SPORTSCARD, BECAUSE THERE ARE GUYS OUT THERE WHO WOULD GLEEFULLY RIP YOU OFF!
Honest to God, I don't know why people get so bunged up about this issue. If someone has a feedback of 24, most of which they've earned by selling old Dion 45's and antique Slinkys, puts up a '61 Mays for sale, with no scan, saying 'card is in great shape, corners are square and no creases, no refunds please', will you pull the trigger for 30 bucks? And if you do, and you get the card and it's exactly as described, but it's centered 95/5 L to R, are you going to yell and scream? I will pull the trigger almost everytime on something like this, hoping (like the PRO buyers) to make a score; but if it doesn't work out I'm going to chalk it up to a small loss. Was the seller trying to rip me off? I don't know, and frankly I don't care. It's irrelevant. I took a gamble by bidding on something that has a small chance of being worth multiples of what I paid for it, and this time it didn't pan out. End of story.
Or, another example. Let's say the guy who recently sold that '72 Clemente PSA 9 NQ that was centered 90/10 didn't include a scan. And let's say I bought it for 300 bucks. If the auction said 'no refunds', do I have a right to demand one? Obviously not. I got what I paid for-- that the card isn't up to my standards has no bearing on my right to restitution. I bid on a '72 Clemente PSA 9 NQ, and I got one. That's it. If I don't like it, them's the breaks.
However, I do stand corrected, apparently PRO does claim to check cards for trimming or alteration.
Check out this line from the site,
~"Our graders take their time to do the job to the best of their ability. Unlike most of our competitors, we have no quotas for our graders to meet. However, we demand that every card be examined closely and authenticated before the grading begins. It is stupid to see counterfeits and altered cards in any grading company's holder. We tackle all the hard problems: autographs, Star cards, and special issues. If it is a sports card, we believe the collector should be able to get it identified and graded."~
Wow, that is some claim, maybe they have a written guarantee too!
What if a potential buyer or submitter looked at the PRO website and read their policies. Of course they would think PRO does indeed check to make sure the cards have not been altered.
<< <i>Let's say 2tinc dies, and his mother (he surely lives at home) finds his stash of PRO slabbed '62 Mays cards. Not knowing a thing about cards, she sells them on ebay. Is this immoral? Only a fool would contest that it is, since morality is irextricably tied to intent. >>
Boopots
Guy - you're OK and I really find your arguments extremely entertaining but they confuse and distract from the fundamental issue of right and wrong. Sure, intent is a hard thing to prove or see. For instance, if a guy was filing his fingernails and someone was to observe, they would think he had good hygiene. But what if he was doing it because he was preparing his fingertips to sense the tumblers on a vault to crack the safe - the intent involves conspiracy to committ a felony - the intent is now immoral and not just an act of hygiene. I don't even know what I just said! This is great. You really can tell some great stories! LOL.
Seriously, the analogy of the little old lady had nothing to do with the fact that these cards should not be on ebay. I hope I'm not beating a dead horse and someone throws it one me?
Mike
I was writing while you were posting. This was a great discussion worthy of any I have had. You are a good sport and a gentlemen. And by the way, you come up with the GREATEST analogies! Very, very, very entertaining. Thanx for inviting me in.
Mike
<< <i> If someone has a feedback of 24, most of which they've earned by selling old Dion 45's and antique Slinkys, >>
- I can't help it - this is priceless - you should be writing novels - you have a great imagination even if I didn't agree with you. Important - I mean this as a compliment!
OK, so you're not a bag snatcher.... But aren't you a card collector?
Weren't you once a kid that collected cards of your favorite players? It astounds me that any collector can just turn a blind eye to these 5 or 10 small time crooks (and PRO) that are slowly trying to ruin the hobby. You basically said they're doing nothing wrong ... and that it's the unknowledgeable buyers fault for buying the cards, and you don't understand why some of us feel the need to try and stop them.
Well here's one of my reasons....I was at the Ft. Washington show last month eating luch at the table next to the GAI booth. We were watching them grade cards and having a good time when we saw an 8 year old kid and his dad come up to the booth. The kid had a screwdown holder that held a Michael Jordon rookie sticker. His dad and him were smiling and talking about how they thought it looked good enough to maybe get an 8. When they got to the front of the line, the grader looked at his card for a couple of seconds... then took it over to the light table and looked at it some more. He finally came back, handed it to the kid and said "I'm sorry, we can't grade it because it's been trimmed." While he was showing the Dad where the cut had been made on the card... the kid started crying. His dad tried to console him, but he was pretty torn up. The Dad looked embarresed, pissed, and helpless all at the same time. They walked out the Exit door of the show, and I imagine they never came back.
Now I obviously don't know the background of the story, or where the kid got the card, or the money, etc... but what I do know is that I have a son (just a few years younger than that kid was), and if anyone ever broke his heart over something as sleezy as conning little kids... I'd probably have to beat the hell out of them.
The real problem with the card trimmers and PRO is that we don't know who's buying their cards and what's happening to them after the buyers figure it all out. We assume that it's just newbies that don't know any better... but what if it's the secretary of the "Make a Wish Foundation" and she's buying a Mantle rookie for a dying kid ... then after the kid dies the parents find out their sons last wish was corrupted by a few con artist on ebay that were out to make a buck.
What if the buyer is just a relative of a dead HOFer? They've never bought a card in their life... but they saved up a little money to try and get a family heirloom of their late cousin Johnny Unitas.
Not that it should matter .... but what if the buyer is just a fool with too much money and doesn't know any better. How does that make it right? Graded cards are a fairly new concept, and I don't know about you... but when I first logged on to ebay and started buying cards, I didn't have an SMR in my hand ... and there certainly weren't any big road signs telling me to stay away from PRO graded cards. The cards look fine and lots of people are bidding on them.... the sellers have pretty good feedback, and the prices seem in line for Beckett raw price guides, so why not take a stab at one of them?
If you don't care about the "buyers" then help us try and stop them just to save a few cards. How many beautiful Vintage cards do you think are out there? I don't know... but I do know there are about 50 less than there were yesterday, just based upon the PRO auctions that ended tonight. I also know that there will be about 50 less tomorrow ... because they're already listed in auctions. 50 cards a day is almost 20,000 cards a year....gone forever... non replacable. Personally, I'd like to have a few vintage cards left around for my kids when they get older... so I choose to try and make a difference and stop these guys.
I'll stop ranting now and get off of my high horse. But I'll end it with this.... the 5 or 6 major card doctors out there (and PRO) could all be run out of town fairly easily if just a few people stood up and made a little noise. These are not big corporate giants were dealing with here... these are small time punks that just happened to stumble onto a good thing and they are milking it for as long as we let them. eBay isn't going to stop them. PSA isn't going to stop them. No one (outside of our little world here) even knows this is happening. The only people that can stop them are us.... the collectors.
One of these days... one of us is going to make the call (or file the complaint, or contact the right person at the media, etc) that will set the wheels in motion to bring these guys down.
Hey Boopotts, wouldn't it be cool if that guy was you? Why not join the revolution to save a Mantle.
Click a link and make some noise!
Downey, CA police dept.
Action News Investigators .. Tampa, FL
Internet Fraud Complaint Center
ABC News 20/20 show
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
Mike-
The insinuation here is that my counterarguments are misleading, when to the contrary the fact that they are confusing is precisely why they need to be entertained. Morality is a tricky subject; it means different things to different people. Which means we should be very leery of banning or prohibiting behavoirs or practices just because we may find them unpalatable. I don't like PRO-- either their product or their company. I think they're sleazy and disreputable, and a black eye on the hobby (and I thought this long before your post re: their grading policies). But who cares? I find a lot of things sleazy-- that doesn't mean I'd be willing to take action to make them illegal.
I know I sound like a weepy relativist here, but the point still stands-- you can't legislate things out of existance simply because you think they suck. In the case of PRO I'd be willing to bankrupt them in a heartbeat, since they clearly mislead a) their clientele, who have every reason to think they're paying a legitimate grading service based on the info on the website, and b)anyone who's thinking of purchasing a collectible which they've graded. They're a fraud, and it will be a great day when someone finally takes them down. But that's the catch; the passage you quote in your earlier post makes the difference. If they didn't make this claim, I would still stand behind my arguments.
<< <i>you can't legislate things out of existance simply because you think they suck >>
But you can...we call them laws...we address wrongs with "laws"...we the people legislate "wrongs" all day long...what do you call the "lemon law"...we the people addressed a wrong and created a law...we legislated...
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
To clarify: I never said that what PRO is doing is OK. Before Stone's recent post, I called them 'borderline unethical', and I also made my stand very clear in my response to GoodRiddance.
That story about the kid is a heartbreaker. And, like you, if someone did that to my son (he's only 3 months old, but I'm projecting ahead) I'd be ready to wring someone's neck. But you have to remeber that what we're talking about here-- or what we were talking about, pre-Stone's post-- is whether or not you can prohibit the sale of PRO cards on ebay. I don't (or didn't) think you can, based on the arguments I've laid forth in earlier posts.
PRO is bad for the hobby, and the guys who broker in their cards are bad for it as well. Nowhere in this thread have I wavered from this.
When I get home tomorrow I will click all those links, and I will do what I can to disrupt PRO's business as much as possible.
This is going to sound condescending, and I really don't mean it that way, but-- you need to read my posts closer before you respond. I said 'you can't legislate things out of existance simply because you think they suck, which in no way suggests that you can't legislate things out of existance that happen to suck.
<< <i>The insinuation here is that my counterarguments are misleading, when to the contrary the fact that they are confusing is precisely why they need to be entertained. >>
No Guy, not misleading but rather argumentative and irrelevent to the core of the argument. A story of what if........is too far fetched - sure the little old lady sold the cards and didn't know they were trimmed is very entertaining but irrelevent to the central idea - the cards that are being sold are inherently bad and the intent, only good if you are going to prosecute, doesn't matter - they are worthless as such. I don't expect anything to happen to the little old lady - but the cards are the problem and the people who graded them. With all due respect, I am not trying to be smart or anything, I just believe as others here that you are missing the CENTRAL THEME: trimmed cards have no place on ebay.
Mike
<< <i> I said 'you can't legislate things out of existance simply because you think they suck, which in no way suggests that you can't legislate things out of existance that happen to suck. >>
I understand what you are driving at here - very good point - every individual who doesn't like strip joints but if they are legal should live with it even if they think it sucks - is that correct? You've made your own argument then - I don't "think" that trimmed cards suck - they "Do" suck. Do I have that right?
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
Henri and I have been talking about a strategy - as I told him - I am going to spend some time working on this and present it to him for thoughts and then put it out. In the interim, I found this site to email the state of FLA, Atty Gen if someone wants to file a report. I would like to think about this, so if I decide to file, it will be as effective as possible.
Pro Grading Address
Thanx again, and accolades go out to Henri for his efforts.
Mike
Thank you for helping!
Mike
The answer is PRO. PRO gives thieves, crooks, cons, and general scum an air of legitimacy. PRO provides "authentication" intended to dupe the uneducated buyer. Think of them as a laundering outfit for dirty cards, rather than money. They take in the dirty, altered, worthless product. Encapsulate it, grade it, and authenticate it. Now a dirty card is back on the street as an apparently clean card. This is the crime. But, can it be proved. tried, and convicted in our courts? Most likely not.
The trail that leads from a legitimate PSA 5 card to a trimmed raw card to a PRO graded Gem Mint card is very shadowy. The fact that there are multiple copies of any one of these cards makes it near impossible to trace a single card through this chain of handling and doctoring. PRO knows this. Crooked dealers know this. Unless someone gets caught in a back room with scalpel in hand, there is simply no solid evidence to prosecute this for happening.
One hope is that maybe someone will screw up with serial numbered modern cards and leave a concrete trail. But don't count on it.
The hope to stop this black market for dirty cards lies with us -- the collectors. We are legion. If we can spread the word in as many venues as possible, unwitting buyers will be warned, and hopefully swayed, from purchasing dirty PRO cards. If you can stem the flow of cash to these crooks, then they WILL move on. They are not thinking about the scam. They think about the cash. Take away the cash and they will go away.
Wait let me re-read......OK.
"But, can it be proved. tried, and convicted in our courts"
Yes it can. There is a "slight" margin for size difference in the grading of cards correct?
If that size is "way" off and way off on a mjority of cards that PRO says are "unaltered" we have a common link of deception.
Im sure there are a few "lawyer" types out there that can put this type of deception under a law.
Mail fraud possibly? I mean 90% or better of their "work" gets delivered via the postal service. If they are deliveriong something that is not what it actually is that amy fall under mail fraud.
I dont know. I do not buy graded. (unless it comes with lots) But it sucks none the less.
Anyone have any ties with major sports teams? They may be interested in this. I mean how bout that kid that gets the 10 Marino Rookie and blames Dan for not being perfect...
Mail fraud might be the strongest possibility for at least filing charges... I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that PRO merely has to plead not guilty due to the fact that their grader -- one M. Magoo -- did his best to athenticate the card. They can merely cite it is the fault of the submitter who used supreme skill in doctoring the card to the point of it being undetectable by their grader -- one M. Magoo.
So, the submitter is charged with fraud. He merely states that he bought the card in this condition from eBay and unfortunately that eBay account is NARU.
Dead end for the legal system. See, you can't prove who trimmed the card. Heck, you can't even prove it's the same card moving from scumbag to scumbag. Seems like a vicious cycle of finger pointing by each party resulting in a futlie legal effort.
I may be wrong on this and I'd love to hear some expert leagal opinion that paints a brighter picture. But somehow I doubt it.