A "rare" 1834 Proof coin which is NOT for sale - Updated April 6th...
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
We recently placed this coin with a client, so, I repeat, it is NOT for sale.
Would anyone like to comment regarding what (if anything) about the images would lead one to believe it to be a very rare Proof, rather than a business strike?
After people have had time to respond, I will offer my two cents worth about this Classic Head Half Cent.
Would anyone like to comment regarding what (if anything) about the images would lead one to believe it to be a very rare Proof, rather than a business strike?
After people have had time to respond, I will offer my two cents worth about this Classic Head Half Cent.
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I believe it is a proof because you said it is.
Russ, NCNE >>
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Rims look nice and sharp. Is that a sign of a Proof Coin??
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Russ, NCNE
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
The above is my way of saying, "I have no idea." BTW, I like that you are giving us "two cents worth" for the have cent. At that rate, I have a great many $100 bills I would like to exchange at the Banco Feldini.
Other than it has very nice strike, you could sell it to me as either MS or a proof.
One thing I never understood about the half-cent is why it exists at all. If you are going to have a basic unit, why start with 1/2 a unit?
The half cents were authorized in 1792. The cent coinage began in 1793 with the law specifiying the cent should weigh exactly twice as much as the half cent.
So the half cent should have been the cent. Had they done this, we would have a lot more demoninations to collect.
the cent would be the 2 cent
the 2 cent would be the 4 cent
the nickel would be the dime
the dime would be the 20c piece
the 20c piece would be the 40c piece
the 25c would be a half dollar
the 50c would be a dollar
the $1 would be the $2
the $2.50 would be the $5.00
the $3.00 would be the $6.00
the $4.00 would be the $8.00
the $5.00 would be the $10.00
the $10.00 would be the $20.00
the $20.00 would be the $40.00
the $25.00 would be the $50.00
the $50.00 would be the $100.00
and the $100 Platinum Eagle would be the $200 coin
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
2) Sharp raised flat rims with strong beading along rims
3) As pontiacinf noted the "B" in Liberty is different - it's missing some of the letter towards the bottom (perhps a proof die diagnostic?)
4) Apparent proof-like reflective surface (hard to tell from photo)
I'm not an early copper collector, but it's a pretty half cent.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
how dare you post images of a coin that was for sale especially since you are a dealer!
I am on to your ploy and your feeble yet sly and underhanded attempts to "hawK" me coins will not work!
as far as your question. I have no clue. The centering dot on the reverse have anything to do with it?
I've never seen a PF of this series up close & personal because they're too expensive for my wallet.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Quick note to all: There's only one set of dies for this date of half cent. That one die pair struck both business strikes and proofs. It's not accurate to call an early coin a "proof" just because it's prooflike.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Russ, NCNE
BTW, proofs of 1834 half cents are known with and without clash marks.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
PCGS certified a certain 1794 Dollar as "specimen" recently, but I would have an argument with that grade and designation. Buy the coin, not the holder.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
<< <i>By the coin, not the holder >>
Jade, I agree 100% with that. Why do you think I added "and I have no argument with that grade and designation" to my "I will add that NGC certified the coin as PR65RB"?
Tomorrow, I will try to answer questions and address issues posed in this thread.
I'm not seeing very much R in the RB, but that might be the pic.
The highest grade example of this coin resides in a PCGS holder. PR66BN.
We ARE watching you.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Beautiful Coin. Quite special.
I'm sure it went to an appreciative home.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Mark - Quit holding out on us Mark.Where is the rest of the set?
Stewart
And thanks for honoring our no sell rule on the U.S. coin forum....NOT
Not me. I have enough trouble with 1834 half cents when I get to see them in person. To me, the DMPL business strikes OF THIS DATE look just like the proofs.
I'm really hoping to learn something from this thread.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
i have had the chance to examine this coin in person some time ago and for me
it is a no questions proof
why?
well you need to see the coin in person and you need to know how they come and what they look like
your photo is incredible
not all pcgs and ngc holdered classic proof half cents are proofs and some are questionable this one you sold is a proof!!
well first of all usually some/most have some degree of cameo not like a strongly cameoed modern proof lincoln cent
this coin in person sight seen has a nice mostly cameoed profile on the obverse and an ever so slight cameo to half of the wreath and lettering on thre reverse
if you look carefully at the denticals on this particiular coin again ++sight seen++ they are all fully struck with a little line between most of the denticals the denticals
to specialists this means the coin was double struck hence a proof
and all the denticals are there and strong both sides this is really rare to non existant on any classic 1831 to 36 half cent bisuness strike ...............even on proofs!
this coin sight seen is totally fully struck i know from the scans the leaves in the wreath some look weak but they are not it is just the scan all the lines and veins in all of the leaves are 100% fully struck also from a fresh new die and this is an extremely early first die state coin to boot!
this coin is a totally fully 100% monster struck coin and where the devices meet the fields it is at a 90 degree angle
the stars if you look at each one closely you will see a little dot in the middle with a rounded incuse circle around the dot that has 5 troughs that separate the 5 trunctions that make up the stars
what a wild strike
sight seen in person the coin has squared edges not shown in the scan
the mirrors are strong on the obverse that is why it is cameo and the mirrors are almost as strong on the reverse
again in person sight seen
the color is wonderful and totally original as it is iridescent and never dipped yes many dipped classic half cents are iridescent but they do not have many blue green patches on the reverse and mostly green on the obverse and in patches that come together which if you have seen many classic head proof halfcents they most all have this same look if original
also to this particiular series of proof half cents there is a different way they tone because of the mirrors and surfaces and the way the coins just come they tone and take on a much different look then regular business strikes i guess you really need to see many and specialize in these coins to see this
if the coin was dipped many times like many of these coins it would turn and not look like this coin with these specific patches of the certian colors of blue green there are many more aspects then this and this expelaination is simplistic but to go into detail i would need many pages and then many coins to show and this si just not possible within the scope of this thread on these forums and then where would i get all the coins all in one place to show this??
the coin in the holder is an early fat boy slab and i have found out that this coin was certified in mid 1990 possibly as early as jan 1989 not earlier or later
now what the slab information means i do not no or care LOL but important to some nonetheless LOL
interesting enough there are no worms/lint marks on the coin but i will not go into details/whys/importantrce or lack of here..........................
the coin has absolutely no clash marks whatsoever and many die marks
there are lathe marks on miss libs bust and lower neck and AGAIN from examining the coin sight seen in person from all the charactistics this coin was a first die state an early first die state if there is such a thing an early first die state LOL but this coin was definately struck from *NEW *FRESH *DIES*
I AM DOING this from my notes in front of me i made on this coin and refreshing my memory from the great scan mark posted on here...........................................
overall the coin is faded magenta i guess you need to have seen many coins different dates too and the original ones have a certain look to them with these patches of greenish blue
and the rb designation is correct as per this coin it is a solid red brown but again you need to see this coin sight seen in person and understand what you are looking at
the grade on the coin is well conservative in my opinion this coin has no hairlines at all and no spots!!!!!
this point of the no spots/stains on this particiular is really uncommon as less then 5% do not have any spots/stains for the classic head proof helfcents
the eye appeal on this coin is exceptional
again FOR ME this is a no brainer proof coin and also with the correct die markers as per the breen book but breen did this book 20 years ago and the rarity scale is not correct it is a good start but after 20 years of more research this coin is a rarity 5 coin and one of the early die states
some of the later so called proof later die states made as a quick afterthought made to order at the mint throughout the year for someone requesting one pressman stops the press and shines up a planchet on his leather apron to give it a prooflike surface and maybe only gives one strike from worn clashed dies is this a proof? to me NO maybe a special inbetween strike? yes but for me it is either all there or NOT and this coin mark feld posted is all there!
some specialists may agree others may say late die state proofs some not i say NOT
for me
if you think about it only the first early die states are proofs TO ME
so in the end when all is said and done
breen was ultimately correct on his rarity 6 for his estimation of proof 1834 half cents if you only count the early die state twice struck with the die state charactistics for proofs which is on this particiular coin posted on here......................... ironic
and of course i am sure there are some prooflike business strikes ....... put them next to this coin and with a little knowledge and sight seen apprasial they are two really different coins
but with them being so uncommon and not a night and day difference like a modern deep cameo proof coin to its mintstate counterpart they are not really fully apprecaited by many and of course how many do you ever see? it is a lifetime study not a simple collectible common item available in huge quantity on a regular basis that can just simply be seen for what it is by a cursary glance
most all collectors if they examined this coin in person sight seen would see it is extra special but not really know the real reason why
also the reference books on this subject are just not in detail like with many other series like rick tomaskas book on franklins and even if there was a book how many proof classic half cents can you gedt in one place to examine??
and also most all of the interesting information is in the heads of the specialists of this series and just not written down you have to ask these specialists/collectors/dealers
this coin is a really really ultra high end 65 solid red brown coin AGAIN to really see this coin as red brown it needs to be sight seen to justify this and then with a somewhat experienced eye
it is a really sexy coin as it is the first year of the special vip diplomatic coin set issues made by the usa to give other countries especially in asia
just a sexy date
and not the rarest proof date in the classic head proof half cent series but not the most common either
i would say in the middle or thereabouts
the no brainer ultra rare proof 1832 and the 1831 are higher rarity and the 1833 & 1835 most common ((if any classic head proof half cent can be called as such but you get my drift))
with the 34 approximately in the middle
i will leave out the 1836 as since it is a proof only date it is in huge demand as again there are no business strikes of this coin so the demand creats an artificial rarity for this coin
i love this coin as it has wonderful eye appeal is nicely cameoed on the obverse slight reverse cameo strongly mirrored i would say 75% of the proof classic half cents are decently mirrored
also this coin is an early first die state no clash marks no spots or stains no hairlines never been rubbed and never been cleaned YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i really like this coin something you do not see everyday and would be perfect for a proof type set
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
and for me there is no such thing as a clashed die 1834 proof halfcent
for me if it aint an early die state/first die state
with evidence of being double struck
and decently mirrored
with the correct dianostics ............as this coin has
and is totally 100% fully struck
squared edges
lathe marks and many other qualifications to see that it is from a new fresh die
THEN IT AINT A PROOF IN MY BOOK or at best case scenerio a sort of special striking not meant for circulation it might be but i just cant be bothered with it as it is questionable
again my opinion
as i only like no brainer proof coins of this era and this coin mark posted on here is a no brainer proof!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
michael
edited for spelling and grammer and addendum again
-------------------------
Mark Feld of Pinnacle Rarities
website
as per the above i am looking forward to mark feld answering questions and addressing issues posed in this thread
i would love to hear them as this topic has always interested me and most of the information is only gathered by looking at many coins over many years which is close to impossible for most all and then the information is not written down anywhere it takes talking to the people who specialize in this field
this date 1834 is sooooooo historical and fantastic in proof and with this coin i saw some time back it is like the ultimate coin in terms of eye appeal and unquestioned proof status
for me i would say that half of the proof classic helf cents are rb with 25% brown and 25% mostly red/mellowed red or close/thereabouts
but the best of the best are not going to be certified
some are but some/more than some are either not proofs or so called proofs by a small consenses
michael
as per the above
it is just not such a simple cut and dried answer either way
now with some coins
like thIS PARTICIULAR 1834 HALF CENT IN THIS THREAD that is a proof !!!
where it is possible to prove some coins are true proofs in every sense of the word and if there are some there are others!!!
but it is going to take more research and study and scholarship
not as simple as seeking out modern proofs but just as much fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i guess the key is many things ALL coming together
and also this date was the first year that the usa govt wanted to make an effort to make special presentation CASED!!!!! proof sets for special diplomatic presentation purposes
and with the study and documentation mostly study these coins are being seen in their real light for what they really are
a neat pursuit
michael
spelling and addendum
for me it helps me relieve stress makes me feel good and i always enjoy the hobby of coins
really a lifetime many decades of doing this many good expereinces some bad LOL
and i have met some really good people along the way and with many juniors and other new collectors i meet i hope maybe to leave some good something positive as i think it makes a person to think and apprecaite more and maybe most importantly
it might even bring some knowledge integritry and responsibility to some with rejards to coins and this might spill over to other aspects of a persons life
i think that is key to whatever you collect in coins
michael
edited for spelling and addendum
but with this coin if you saw it in person it looks totally amazing much different than the scan suggests
it makes an impact
it is really hard to see this coin for what it really is unless you have seen it in person and understand what you are looking at
but
no matter WHAT THE COIN IS even if you have never seen a proof classic head half cent or any classic head half cent
i think everyone on here if they saw the coin in person it would blow them away
and i think anyone could see there is just something really special about this coin
for a 170 year old copper coin it is mesmorizing if you like exceptionally eye appealling copper
michael
crack it out, then let's talk. but my gut feel is business strike. this is typically 1 of the best struck 1/2c varieties, & it wouldn't be the 1st time some slick-haired salesman tried to pass it off as proof. just like the 1831 jr-4 dimes, often passed off as proofs.
K S
NGC saw the edge.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
psst, now put down the coffee and take a nap
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
K S
Let me start out by saying, I do not claim that I or others can distinguish Proof 1834 Half Cents from their business strike counterparts with absolute certainty. However, here are the factors/considerations which cause me to be convinced of this one's Proof status:
1) Fully proof-like surfaces on each side (unfortunately, the images do not show that);
2) A lack of clash-marks (yes, supposedly some Proofs have clash-marks but I would certainly prefer one that does not have them);
3) Squared edges
4) A superior strike, unlike that seen on most business-strikes;
5) A noticeably different look/appearance from non-Proofs I have seen;
6) This next one might sound peculiar to some or most of you but I think it deserves mention: The color of this coin is not what one would typically see on a business strike. In other words, my contention is that Proof coins generally tone differently than and in different colors from business strikes. This is not, by any means, limited to Half Cents, either. Take a look at various series of coins and compare the toning on proofs vs. business strikes - it is usually quite different.
Below is an image of an 1834 Half Cent which was certified as MS64RB by PCGS and sold by Heritage in their Sept. 2003 sale, for one comparison:
<< <i>Karl,
NGC saw the edge. >>
So did Michael. Karl might want to read his post.
Russ, NCNE