This has gotta be illegal

JJ69 · March 31, 2004 1:08PM

Maybe you guys already seen this I don't know but ... An [apparently genuine] 1815 half dollar mold ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3904858019

Link

Hopefully the winning bidder was the Secret Service.

ddink · March 31, 2004 1:09PM

Coins have never been made with molds have they? They are always struck with dies.

Russ · March 31, 2004 1:09PM

Yeah, we've seen it. Half the bidders are forum members.

Russ, NCNE

astrorat · March 31, 2004 1:22PM

Assuming it is used to produce a reasonable replica of a US 1815 half-dollar, then it's a completely, totally, and unequivocally illegal item to own, purchase, sell, or posess. Whether the buyer or seller get in any trouble is another story. The Secret Service appears to be more concerned with contemporary counterfeits that are produced to pass as current coins or currency as opposed to "classical" contemporary counterfeits.

Lane

P.S. Coins from the US Mint were never cast, only struck, so it could have never been a "real" item used to produce coins.

wayneherndon · March 31, 2004 1:25PM

That's a better date. Sounds like tools of a counterfeiter.

WH

NoGvmnt · March 31, 2004 1:37PM

"P.S. Coins from the US Mint were never cast, only struck, so it could have never been a "real" item used to produce coins. "

So what is to stop the buyer from placing the dies in a press and squeezing a couple silver planchets?

Dont tell me it can't be done, I used to work at a plant where we had an 800 ton press. We could have easily heat treated those dies and fabricated holders to spread the pressure equally across the dies during the striking process.

Jim

ddink · March 31, 2004 1:49PM

Would the resultant coin be the proper relief though?

JohnZ · March 31, 2004 1:53PM

We've been watching this auction since its instigation.

And I agree with you JJ, let's hope the Secret Service won.

Edited to add:

Aethelred · March 31, 2004 1:58PM

<< We've been watching this auction since its instigation.

And I agree with you JJ, let's hope the Secret Service won.

>>

Or at least be paying a visit to both the winner and seller!

Donovan · March 31, 2004 1:58PM

I think we may be seeing quite a few 1815 halves from grandpa's estate pop up on ebay in the next few months.

Prometheus183 · March 31, 2004 2:21PM

Damn! There goes my next business venture

Edited to add: On another note; Be very weary of any 1815 halfs that might appear on eBay within the near future

Craig

JJ69 · March 31, 2004 3:08PM

Yeah brain slip - 'Genuine' - But it does look pretty old.
Might be intructive to take note of the bidders - Though to be fair,they may have wanted it as
a conversation piece or [hard to believe] to actually destroy.
In any case,I noticed only 1 bidder with any items for sale - An 1831 bust.

Rittenhouse · March 31, 2004 10:04PM

I think I know who bought this. Looks contemporary. Nice score. Looks like I'll get to see it at ANA.

BTW, I see nothing in the US Code about the legality of items that COULD be used to make copies, just the making of the copies themselves w/o proper markings. If these are illegal, then the dies used by modern copy manufacturers must also be illegal - most of them punch "COPY" in after the striking.

BillJones · March 31, 2004 11:23PM

<< Coins have never been made with molds have they? They are always struck with dies. >>

REAL, regular issue U.S. coins have always been struck from dies. Counterfeiters mold coins.

The Secret Service could get after these people, but it seems that they usually don't.

RotatedRainbows · March 31, 2004 11:47PM

I think I know who bought this. Looks contemporary. Nice score.

My thoughts exactly, and we DO NOT have to worry about any cast counterfeits being made from it if it is who I think it is.

Conder101 · April 1, 2004 12:24AM

<< BTW, I see nothing in the US Code about the legality of items that COULD be used to make copies, just the making of the copies themselves w/o proper markings. If these are illegal, then the dies used by modern copy manufacturers must also be illegal - most of them punch "COPY" in after the striking. >>

United States Code Title 18 Sec 487:

Whosoever, without lawful authority makes any die, hub, or mold, or any part thereof, either of steel or plaster, or any other substance, in likeness or similitude, as to the design or the inscription thereon,of any die, hub, or mold designated for the coining or making of any of the genuine gold, silver, nickel, bronze, copper, or other coins coined at the mints of the United States; or

Whosoever, without lawful authority possesses any such die, hub, or mold, or any part thereof, or permits the same to be used for or in aid of the counterfeiting of any such coins of the United States, shall be fined not more than $5,000 or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both.

So yes, this mold is illegal to own and from what I read in this law technically so are the molds or ies used by the makers of the modern copies as well. One loophole for te copy makers though would be if they got a license or permission from the government to create those molds or dies. If they did that could be probably be seen as having "Lawful authority".

hamiltonjh · April 1, 2004 2:08AM

Once they "discontinue" a coin, dont they destroy the die? Deface it or completely destory it?

Rittenhouse · April 1, 2004 2:23AM

Conder, I'm aware of that section. However, it is in conflict with Title 16, Part 304.6, RULES AND REGULATIONS UNDER THE HOBBY PROTECTION ACT, Marking requirements for imitation numismatic items:

(a) An imitation numismatic item which is manufactured in the United States, or imported into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce, shall be plainly and permanently marked "COPY".

Since Title 16, Part 304.6 CLEARLY permits manufacturing (striking, casting, EDM, etc.), you have one federal law permitting reproduction and another prohibiting. Prosecution would then hinge on "intent".

JohnZ · April 1, 2004 2:30AM

I wonder if it comes with a "COPY" stamp and a hammer?

JadeRareCoin · April 1, 2004 3:29AM

High bidder: sheridan333.

Hmmmmmmmm.

MSD61 · April 1, 2004 5:33AM

Genuine coins are struck with dies at the mint. I understand that most counterfeit coins are made by pouring liquid metal into molds or dies and often leaves die marks, cracks or pimples of metal on the counterfeit coin. Most counterfeit coins today are made primarily to simulate rare coins which are of value to collectors. The mold this person has for sale to me is illegal and a threat to collectors everywhere.
I would hope that some agent from the counterfeit division over at the secret service is watching this. But....that's just a hope.

Conder101 · April 1, 2004 3:59PM

<< Since Title 16, Part 304.6 CLEARLY permits manufacturing (striking, casting, EDM, etc.), you have one federal law permitting reproduction and another prohibiting. Prosecution would then hinge on "intent". >>

The laws would not be in conflict though if the word copy was included as part of the die or mold. I think the feds just give the manufacturers the benefit of the doubt. If they really wanted to they could prosecute on the basis of the existence of the unmarked copies prior to marking them with "copy".

Rittenhouse · April 1, 2004 9:45PM

<< If they really wanted to they could prosecute on the basis of the existence of the unmarked copies prior to marking them >>

Talked with my lawyer (business law, fellow collector). In short, no. The law grants permission to manufacture, period. Must be marked prior to distribution.

MrEureka · April 1, 2004 9:53PM

High bidder: sheridan333.

Probably this Sheridan. If so, the dies will be placed in a good, safe home.

This has gotta be illegal

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