Dothan, Alabama Coin Show Disaster

BaltimoreCoinConv

Just got an email from one of the dealers who attended the Dothan, AL
Coin Show over the weekend. On Friday, the Houston County Tax Dept.
came into the show and demanded all dealers buy a $31.00 "Transient
Peddlers License" and if the dealers did not pay they would be arrested.
Dealers paid as they thought it was a small price to pay for small
town extortion. On Saturday, an official from the City Tax Dept came
into the show and demanded dealers pay a $100.00 "Transient Peddler's
Tax" and if they didn't pay they would be arrested. Dealers would have to pay whether they stayed or left the show. Majority of dealers packed up and left
and did not pay. Think about all the lost revenue from hotels, restaurants, etc.,
and the fact that there will never be a coin show in Dothan, Alabama again.
What Dummies. Ed

Stuart

That's really a cryin' shame

kranky

<< <i>Majority of dealers packed up and left and did not pay. >>



I guess that took the wind out of the sails of Sunday Tax Guy!

Frankly, the tax people probably don't care if there's ever another show there. They'll still be proud of their apparent "zero tolerance" policy, even if there's no one to enforce it on.

Conder101

New Jersey all over again.

FC57Coins

Interesting - I was thinking about going to that show but changed my mind at the last minute. I know several people that went and will be seeing them tomorrow - I hope to have first hand accounts of what happened.

BillJones

Some small time public officials suffer from terminal stupidity. Now they have killed a show that generated revenue for the governments involved in the forms of meal and room taxes.

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

grip

Was Al Capone with them

JadeRareCoin

I was late in mailing my sales tax form and funds from the EAC show last year. A fellow from the Kentucky tax department called me and threatened me with plenty of penalties. Worst yet, he was very rude and not easy to deal with. I had to overnight the check and call him back with the tracking number. What a joke.

lordmarcovan

Sounds like something you'd encounter in Beirut or Cairo or Bombay, maybe.

Outhaul

I've been to Dothan, AL...this coin show was probably the only thing that crummy little town had going for it.

Russ

<< <i>On Friday, the Houston County Tax Dept.
came into the show and demanded all dealers buy a $31.00 "Transient
Peddlers License" and if the dealers did not pay they would be arrested.
Dealers paid as they thought it was a small price to pay for small
town extortion. On Saturday, an official from the City Tax Dept came
into the show and demanded dealers pay a $100.00 "Transient Peddler's
Tax" >>



Something strikes me as a little strange here.

a) Why would a transient license not be purchased for the duration in one billing?
b) If it is normal to pay it once each day, why was it more than three times as much the next day?

I think there are some details missing.

Russ, NCNE

Barry

Read it again, Russ. Taxman 1 was the County. Taxman 2 was the City.

Stuart

I assume that somebody checked the public official's credentials to ensure that they were legitimate and not just scamming the coin show (Or at least whether or not it was a psuedo-legal scam...)

Russ

<< <i>Taxman 1 was the County. Taxman 2 was the City. >>



OOPS, see that now.

Friggin' idiot government morons.

Russ, NCNE

mrearlygold

Sounds like New Germany, I mean new jersey.

TP

Russ

Back when I was in the catering business The People's Republic Of Seattle spent a year of time and resources sending me dunning letters for $1.78 in B&O taxes. For those who aren't familiar with B&O, it is a ridiculous tax system that skims the money off the top, rather than taxing profit. It's statewide here in Pinko Washington, but individual cities are also allowed to grab their own handful.

No B&O tax where my business was located, but I made the mistake of taking a catering job in The People's Republic Of Seattle.

Russ, NCNE

foodude

ttt. Any comments from someone that was present at the show during the special visits?

ms70

<< <i>New Jersey all over again. >>



What happened in in lovely, lovely, NJ?

jhar

I live in Dothan, AL. I will check with a couple of local dealers as I'm sure that at least one of them was there, and see what the inside story was.

I Didn't even know that a show was being held!!! ARRRRGGGGHHH!!!!

BAJJERFAN

<<"I was late in mailing my sales tax form and funds from the EAC show last year. A fellow from the Kentucky tax department called me and threatened me with plenty of penalties. Worst yet, he was very rude and not easy to deal with. I had to overnight the check and call him back with the tracking number. What a joke.">>

No doubt his paycheck that week was contingent on you paying your DUES on time.

FatMan

I don't find any of this surprising. As a business owner I am constantly harassed by government entities. Why do coin dealers feel they should be excluded from all the fun. This is all part of running a business in this country. Some people hold political views that believe the government needs to get all these fees from businesses to insure we pay our fair share. I call it extortion. In most cases when certain fees do not apply to your business you will end up paying them anyway because to fight the harassment will cost you more in money and time than the fees themselves. It's all in a days work.

Or, maybe in this case they were just trying to rid the town of all the riff raff.


edited: cuz i kant speel

Bear

The person or group putting on such a show, is responsible

for knowing about such shenanagans and warn the participants.

ohbaby

Arrested? For what charge?

oreville

This woman is the Revenue Comissioner of Houston County, Alabama. Coincidentally, Dothan, AL is the county seat of Houston County.

The link below the image is the web site of the Revenue Commission of Houston County = Alabama.



Link to Houston County Commission with all contact informations for complaints.

glassman

Nothing new here, Alabama has always taken the approach that increased taxes lead to increased revenues, wrong. Years ago, the oil industry was paying 5% state tax on all it's production. Ala. decided they wanted more revenue and increased the tax to 10%; oil industry balked and said they would be willing to pay 8%. Alabama said no, they wanted 10%. The oil industry then proceeded to reduce production to next to nil... State now gets less revenue from the oil industry.... I guess they are trying to make up the short fall with all those rich coin dealers...LOL, it figures... that's what you get going to Alabummer anyway. JMHO.

geb209

Now wait a minute. Why does everyone feel that what happened was wrong? The fact that the you had to pay the taxes? The manner in which it was collected? I think they acted appropriately (except for the arrest threat -- that was a little much).

glassman

<< <i>Now wait a minute. Why does everyone feel that what happened was wrong? The fact that the you had to pay the taxes? The manner in which it was collected? I think they acted appropriately (except for the arrest threat -- that was a little much). >>



....and maybe the dealers should have been made aware of the tax (license) at the time they purchased tables, for the right to sell (peddle) their wares. Just how many shows also require sales tax reports from the state, county, city, etc?

Nothing new here... just missing info from the start; blame goes to show organisers.

The real losers are the patrons/collectors who will probably end up with a hard to promote show, with the reputation of being a dealer unfriendly venue.

Theop

Here is the text of the email I received which I assume is the same as the one RCC posted about:

Dear David,
I hope this isn't a sign of things to come...
Friday morning, as we were setting up at the Dothan, AL show, two people showed up and demanded that all dealers pay them $31 CASH for an Alabama "Transient Dealer's License". Nobody was expecting this, and we've never seen anything like this at any other show, but we all paid it. Then the next day, Saturday morning as we were setting up, TWO MORE people showed up (with the police) and demanded $100 from every dealer for a City of Dothan business license!! Needless to say, most dealers (including me) packed up and left, and these people went so far as to say that they mnight come after us even if we leave, to try and collect their $100 since we had been there on Friday. If this becomes the trend, it will likely put an end to coin shows as we know them.
Just thought you might like to know...

kranky

The Dothan Eagle ran a story last Wednesday about the then-upcoming show. The reporter was Corrina Sisk-Casson and her email is ccasson@dothaneagle.com . Perhaps she'd do a follow-up about how it ended up being a fiasco.

Fragmentum

I agree with the position that the promoters of this event were misguiding those wishing to participate without informing them of local tax assessments 'on the spot'. I would suspect they would be liable for misrepresentation and may have killed their own event. The promoters should have contacted the local authorities for guidance for the attendees and negotiated the tax assessments. I would encourage all the businesses that may have benefited/profited from the additional income from those attending to contact the city/county/state officials with this treatment of these dealers to refund the taxes collected and apologize for the tactics.
The promoters at least should contact all those affected by this treatment with apologies and possible compensation if they wish this event to take place again in the future.
Opinion expressed is mine and mine alone.
Any resemblance of others opinions is purely coincidental, but would be viable.

Theop

I have replied to the sender of the email with the link to the story in the Dothan paper.

jhar

Here is a copy of the story printed in our local paper "The Dothan Eagle". (pdf file format)

Coin Show Article

It looks like the show promoter could have paid a fee that would have covered all of the dealers but either didn't know about it or just didn't do it. This should have been handled a lot better. I will watch with interest the results of the Dothan City Commissioners meeting today.

Hedger

I'll never go to Alabama after hearing this. Sounds like they need more Wal Marts to generate tax $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Greedy southern business practices. Just typical.

Tsimmerdown

<< <i>Now wait a minute. Why does everyone feel that what happened was wrong? The fact that the you had to pay the taxes? The manner in which it was collected? I think they acted appropriately (except for the arrest threat -- that was a little much). >>



I think what was most wrong here was these two visits from the tax-man were unexpected. Taxes are taxes, for better or for worse, and if people actually knew about them ahead of time, they could have then changed their decision if they wished to attend the show.

What reeks here is that this event was most likely planned well in advance, and someone should have known about this. Perhaps the tax was not well known, since it was most likely enforced irregularily. That just isn't fair. If you're going to have standards for "transient vendor liscenses" then you better enforce it across the board. Since the organizers may not have known about these liscenses or there was the feeling that the law was never enforced, this makes you think that someone was targeting this event. That just sounds like extortion, based simply on past practice: i.e. the lack of enforcement. However, if enforcement of this law was uniformally applied, then I think the fault rests with the organizers of the event for not informing the participants of the tax, or at least the possibility it may be enforced.

We just do not know enough information to really come to a conclusion to who is at fault.

Russ

Is this the first show held in this city? If not, has this happened before? Were past participants required to pay this tax? If they weren't, why not? The show organizers may very well have known nothing about it. It wouldn't be the first example of some officious moron civil servant digging up some obscure ordinance to show the world their power - that they lack everywhere outside of their little government cubicle.

Russ, NCNE

jhar

Russ

This is the first true coin show that's been held in Dothan. We used to have a smaller show that would happen in the late spring in nearby Enterprise, AL, but this is the first one for Dothan.

Quite possibly the Last too.

gsaguy

<<The person or group putting on such a show, is responsible for knowing about such shenanagans and warn the participants.>>

Bear, haven't learned that those who would extort money from others are constantly on the offensive?

What was that saying....................something about taxation without representation?

GSAGUY

mgoodm3

Keep us updated as to what happens.

gsaguy

<<It wouldn't be the first example of some officious moron civil servant digging up some obscure ordinance to show the world their power - that they lack everywhere outside of their little government cubicle.>>

Reminds me of the time a guy from the State Agriculture Department showed up at my business (a petroleum laboratory), unannounced, demanding to inspect my laboratory and my records of how I certified my scales. When I explained to him that we sold nothing in the way of agricultural products and that we had regulations against non-company visitors on the lab floor during regular business hours, his response was that he could come back with the State Police and have me arrested!

I showed him the door and called my attorney. The guy never returned.

GSAGUY

Barry

Seems that the show organizer could have paid a fee to cover the whole show and avoid this whole mess. That would have been the expedient thing to do, and pass it along to the vendors in the table fee. Not mentioning anything to the vendors about city/county feesand having them surprised by the "revenuers" was not smart.

Stork

<< <i>Is this the first show held in this city? If not, has this happened before? >>

someone asked....according to the original pre-show article:



<< <i>expected to attend the inarguable Coins, Antiques and Collectibles Show this weekend at >>




See, it was the Inarguable...I wonder if there was an Inarguable Ball?

LAWMAN

You all need to hire a good lawyer down there. These tin horn local authorities are stomping all over your Commerce Clause constitutional rights. There was once a US Supreme Court case involving a mid-Western state's attempt to regulate the width of mudflaps on trucks driving through the state. You guessed it, the local constabularies sat at the border and fined all the non-complying cross-country and interstate trucks. The US Supreme Court struck down the regulation on the ground that it burdened interstate commerce, thus violating the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution.

Of course, the truckers had a lot of $$$ to spend on lawyers, but, somebody who is made enough ought to hire a lawyer who knows his or her way around the federal courts to file a constitutional law challenge. And make those guys pay all the legal fees when they loose.

LucyBop

Change the name of that town to SQUARESVILLE!

dlimb2

You guys need to contact my cousin his name is Erskine Mathis...he is in Birmingham....if he can not help he knows someone who can.

LAWMAN

or else, call My Cousin Vinnie. He is undefeated in Alabama.

LucyBop

My Cousin Vinny....


I bought two 2004 Dodge's a week ago and the salescats' name was my Cousin Vinny....

and he was just like the character in the movie...... a New Yorker fer sures!

atomic

I've generally found that uttering the word "tax" at a coin show is like using the word "bomb" in the security line at the airport.

Who pays taxes on transactions at coin shows? You think the tax man doesn't know this? The two visits at this show and the one in NJ were a message. Governments get ruthless during downturns when tax revenues dry up. It's nothing personal: their own jobs are at stake.

A word to the wise.

BaltimoreCoinConv

I've actually done coin shows in Dothan before, several years ago at a shopping mall, and no one came and hassled us about any kind of licenses. I would have attended this show had I not had a conflict.
You can be 100% sure I will never consider doing a show in Dothan, Alabama again, and I doubt seriously there if there ever will be another show in the city again. Dothan, Alabama doesn't deserve it.

Regardless of the legality of these "transient" licenses and taxes, they are completely counter-productive in bringing in conventions and shows to any location, and the end result is the city, county, state, merchants, hotels, restaurants, and other local business will not now (or anytime in the future) reap the strong economic impact that shows and conventions bring to that area. You might say, well it was a small 45 dealer show, however, this probably relates to about 40 rooms (as there are not many local dealers in that area) for two or three nights, several hundred meals, gasoline sales, convenience store business, wifes shopping at the mall, bar tabs,
strip club donations, and all the other business folks spend bucks at.

Even a small show like this generates a ton of economic impact for the city/county that they are held in, and those cities/counties that are stupid enough not to understand how important these type of events are to the overall economic impact of the area, don't deserve any future consideration for any type of temporary business events.

Apparantly, Dothan, Alabama does not have professional business people running their city, and they have not ever got out of the dark ages. It sounds like they still practice their "good old boy" politics and can not comprehend that they should be doing everything they can to make their expense spending businessmen and guests happy instead of doing everything they can to run them out of town with sleazey tax and license demands. They are going after pennies and losing dollars, and think that the dealers and guests will stand for it. They are wrong. Instead of putting up with this oppression they will simply hold their shows, events, and business meetings in other locations that are more amenable to hosting business events which bring serious economic impact to their cities and counties.

Just a simple case of pure stupidity and a serious case of dumbass.

Ed Kuszmar

mrearlygold

<< <i><<It wouldn't be the first example of some officious moron civil servant digging up some obscure ordinance to show the world their power - that they lack everywhere outside of their little government cubicle.>>

Reminds me of the time a guy from the State Agriculture Department showed up at my business (a petroleum laboratory), unannounced, demanding to inspect my laboratory and my records of how I certified my scales. When I explained to him that we sold nothing in the way of agricultural products and that we had regulations against non-company visitors on the lab floor during regular business hours, his response was that he could come back with the State Police and have me arrested!

I showed him the door and called my attorney. The guy never returned.

GSAGUY >>



Good for you!!

Really!

Rgrds
TP

mrearlygold

<< <i>I've generally found that uttering the word "tax" at a coin show is like using the word "bomb" in the security line at the airport.

Theop

Updates:

Link to a editorial in the Dothan Eagle paper.
Link to a story about the requirement of business licenses.

I spoke to a couple of dealers who were at the show. They are still upset about the incident.