Sorry, but the man clearly tells you what you're getting. If you can't understand what he has written, you may need a class in reading comprehension....JMO....Ken
Sorry, but the man clearly tells you what you're getting. If you can't understand what he has written, you may need a class in reading comprehension....JMO....Ken
you don't think this may be confusing for someone?
If it's so blatent from his auction description that it's a fake, why not just come clean and type the word "copy"?
Probably for the same reason that they don't read the description. The auction is for a silver coated base metal novelty.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death! ~PATRICK HENRY~
What this auction "clearly tells" me is that it's the seller's intent to deceive. If he wasn't intentionally trying to deceive, he would have changed his auction description after the first complaint concerning sales of "replicas", to ensure no other bidders make the same false assumptions. I don't see how anyone can condone this type of listing.
1. the general population is below average in intelligence ~ if you don't agree, more than likely you are in this group 2. the average IQ is 100 ~ if you have an IQ of 130, one person exists with an IQ of 70 or two people score 85 or three people must have 90 IQ's to balance out your superbrain
I don't think this is a case of intelligence, just ignorance. When you start collecting coins you begin to learn the lingo and elements of your hobby. Someone new and with little or no guidance (which some may say is stupid) may not have learned that this item is not the item referred to in price guides. This is no different to me than a new collector buying third tier slabbed coins using PCGS pricing. They don't realize that MS-65 is not necessarily the MS-65 referred to in the pricing guides. It has to be learned.
Joe.
Edit: Yes these auctions are deceitful and meant to capture the individuals I refer to above. Joe.
This seller preys on unsophisticated buyers. Regardless of one's intellingence or experience in the hobby its not ok to be taken advantage of or for a seller to run an auction like this. Ken, I wonder how you would feel if one of your grandchildren mistakenly purchased one of these?
I think "National Collectors Mint" in big and bold lettering should be enough for a human with at least average intelligence to figure it out. Also Big Al is right. If people just checked a guys feedback then they should be able to figure out that what they're bidding on is probably not authentic.
If he was an honest person he would have changed the auction description after the FIRST misunderstanding from a dissatisfied bidder. Instead he continues to run PRIVATE auctions for his COINS while running normal autions for other stuff so no one can warn the unsuspecting bidders who he knows does not understand what is really for sale.
Said seller is a corporate barrister; therefore, according to him, there's no prevarication in the item description, and he possesses every LEGAL right to sell said item under that pretense. Bottom line is...and I'm sure all of you remember what the great Albert Einstien stated: "There are two things that are infinite to man, the universe and mans stupidity," this seller is obviously selling under the premise of part two of Al's adage and making mucho dollars off of this junk. If memory serves me, this seller was rousted by several forum members a few monthes ago. This character's old news. I gotta give it to him though...he's making big bucks off of junk, and of course, mans stupidity. Welcome to America...
What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
The thing that gets me is the word "dollar" in the headline. This is not a dollar. No where on the coin does it say that. That is what i don't like about his auctions. Everything else is cleary stated about the origin of this hunk of metal. To me it's a keyword violation. He is using the word "dollar" to atract bidders when it's not.
This isn't just about the seller's intent to deceive newbie coin collectors - this is also about ebay buyers that do not pick up on the obvious clues..... Neg feedback is pretty clear that the coins are fake; many of the negs and pos that make mention of coins are "private" and you cannot see what they got; User ID's kept private - not always but usually an indicator the something may not be right.
Whenever I see these auctions I get really pi$$ed off, but mostly that A) Ebay allows this, and that the gov't doesn't care.
SNIKT! You are doing well, subject 15837. You are a good person.
<< <i>I don't think this is a case of intelligence, just ignorance. When you start collecting coins you begin to learn the lingo and elements of your hobby. Someone new and with little or no guidance (which some may say is stupid) may not have learned that this item is not the item referred to in price guides. This is no different to me than a new collector buying third tier slabbed coins using PCGS pricing. They don't realize that MS-65 is not necessarily the MS-65 referred to in the pricing guides. It has to be learned. >>
Agreed, and until it is learned, if they want to go around spending a bundle on things they are ignorant about yet, that's their business. But don't expect me to feel sorry for them. If you don't know about what you are buying either get help or don't buy. And if you do buy in ignorance and get taken, take your lumps and learn from it. Don't whine about something that is your own error.
Another fine example of a slick marketing technique. Play on the buyer's emotions. Get them excited with the big pitch "1879 GSA Morgan". Give them big colorful fonts that only the legally blind could miss, portray the most important aspects to the poor emotional sap, and place that "disclosure and truth" crap toward the end,... no one who's caught up in the moment really needs all that anyway, right? Flim-Flam artists will never go away, and the smart ones learn all the legal loopholes. This one has obviously done all his homework. Still, doesn't mean it sits well on the pallett.
"Buyer beware"
Craig
The Rede we live by: If it harms none, do what you will.
nOoBiEeE, You ask, "Me the Newbie has no idea that that is counterfeit. Can you guys show me from his auction, what words, phrases say that is counterfeit?".... . minted by the National Collector's Mint
Specifications: Composition: 100 Mil .999 Pure Silver Clad Base . .. .Text guess I need to take a class on reading comprehension, right Ken?....I did not say you specifically needed one! However, after you read the parts I've included from the auction, and still don't understand, then I'd have to agree.....Ken
OK, fine I'll take my lumps because I'm a stupid newbe, because I'm new to the hobby I deserve to get taken. What disturbs me about this type of deception is when mom wants to buy her son something that he loves, she thinks she gets the best thing in the world because it's shinnier/newer/better condition than any of the Morgans he has and when the son opens it and shows a face of disapointment because he knows his mom was just taken....
Life is unfair... I can't even say what i want to say...
Hmmm. We can't save the world, I don't do ebay but isn't there somekind of EBay police? OK I keep checking this feedback thing mentioned often on this board & for the life of me where are the complaints. I see, for this guy, 7 negatives in the past 6 months. Thats not as bad as I had expected to see after reading the Ad. Am I not looking in the right place?
Although the bidder is technically at fault, the seller clearly knows what he's doing. His verbose auction description is ment to prey on those too lazy to read every word. Furthermore, if you look at the NEG's left by sellers, you can clearly see that he's been made aware of the confusion.
I don't see anything stating that these are copys, reproductions, or the like and not everyone knows that the "National Collector's Mint" is not an official mint.
Finally, how many people know what 100 Mil .999 Pure Silver Clad Base means? Heck, I'll bet more than half the board members here couldn't even tell you what a "mil" is! How about 39 mm diameter? I'm sure the only metric known by most of this country is "liter" as in two liter coke bottle.
Baseball, Shamika, I agree with both of you but it still cams down to what I said earlier
<< <i>if they want to go around spending a bundle on things they are ignorant about yet, that's their business. But don't expect me to feel sorry for them. If you don't know about what you are buying either get help or don't buy. >>
MrPaseo did make one good point with his senario of someone trying to buy a collector a gift and getting taken. That is why I have always stressed to those close to me that they should NEVER try to buy me a coin gift because there are a lot of scams out there and that they are not qualified to judge them. Not because of any fault of theirs, but simply because coins are a specialized field and if they don't know what they are doing they will probably get taken.
I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but I want to jump in and say that the seller is using deceptive advertising techniques. Sure, it's buyer beware, but he should include "replica" in the title. Someone is going to buy that assuming that it's a real GSA and give it to her husband as a birthday gift AFTER the return priviledge has expired. Both the seller and the buyer share responsiblity for this train wreck of an auction. Unfortunately, I have seen this same "scam" auction dozens of times.
It looks like this seller is just copying the same deceptive sales pitch the National Collector's Mint uses: "a rare 1879-CC silver dollar as a 100 mil silver proof," as if it were the real thing in a slightly different package. It's like saying you've got an authentic autograph of George Washington as a computerized image. Both statements make no sense unless there is intent to deceive. A real 1879-CC silver dollar is made according to specifications laid out in federal law -- anything that doesn't meet those specifications is a counterfeit, period, and illegal to represent as the real thing. Why doesn't the Secret Service go after these people? It's their responsibility to police this.
<< <i> A real 1879-CC silver dollar is made according to specifications laid out in federal law -- anything that doesn't meet those specifications is a counterfeit, period, and illegal to represent as the real thing. >>
Actually one made TO those specifications would be the counterfeit, this one is not and is not represented as the real thing. (if you read the description.) So it is not illegal.
I've e-mailed several high bidders on copies like these and always been rewarded with a sincere thank you and an expression of "how could I have been so foolish..."
Technically this seller may be accurate as he does list a semi-accurate description of the coin at the end, but he violates the entire spirit of trust that makes e-bay work to begin with. He knows he will catch unsuspecting fish and doesn't care-he's real pond scum! Don't excuse him because he's technically correct in his listing; damn him for what he tries to accomplish with a listing that is obviously slanted away from the truth.
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
Didn't say in listing that coin was a copy,wanted pos F.B first before refund,F-
misleading ads for a novice/unethical/ no refunds/beware of plated/replica coins
Coin missrepresented . Won't return e-mails or calls. Watch out for this one.
Seller did not inform enough on product when asked if coin has a MS rating. FAKE
Intentionally misleading for profit - read carefully - not illegal, but unethical
AUCTION WAS MISLEADING-NO MENTION OF A COPY-NO ANSWER TO E-MAILS-BEWARE
Refusing to work thru mediator, means not good to deal with.
Why doesn't one of these buyers just state "Carson City Morgans ARE FAKE" in their neg?
Considering the many more private Auctions this guys feedback shows, there are obviously more people that this guy duped, they just don't know they have been duped.
I wonder if any of these buyers have/will crack the fake out, put it in a flip, and relist it as the real thing.
<< <i>What this auction "clearly tells" me is that it's the seller's intent to deceive. If he wasn't intentionally trying to deceive, he would have changed his auction description after the first complaint concerning sales of "replicas", to ensure no other bidders make the same false assumptions. I don't see how anyone can condone this type of listing. >>
<< <i>I think "National Collectors Mint" in big and bold lettering should be enough for a human with at least average intelligence to figure it out. Also Big Al is right. If people just checked a guys feedback then they should be able to figure out that what they're bidding on is probably not authentic. >>
One problem is that people may assume that the NCM is the National Mint!
<< <i>I've e-mailed several high bidders on copies like these and always been rewarded with a sincere thank you and an expression of "how could I have been so foolish..."
Technically this seller may be accurate as he does list a semi-accurate description of the coin at the end, but he violates the entire spirit of trust that makes e-bay work to begin with. He knows he will catch unsuspecting fish and doesn't care-he's real pond scum! Don't excuse him because he's technically correct in his listing; damn him for what he tries to accomplish with a listing that is obviously slanted away from the truth. >>
Amen brother! Its interesting to note that the seller doesn't allow the bidders ID's to be revealed! That's a clear tip-off of a fraud!
"Buyer beware" - Sure, but that doesn't excuse this SCUMBAG. Put "replica" or "copy" in the title, then let the buyer beware. This is one of the many fronts where ebay could be improved. ebay should have tighter regulations of its auctions. The post earlier in this thread about the Mom buying something for her son really hit home. Must anyone who wishes to buy a coin-related gift for someone be an experienced numismatist to not be subjected to a total ripoff?!?!?
C'mon you "let the buyer beware" folks - this seller is all of those adjectives that will get my post pulled.....and you know it!!!
Mike
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>"Buyer beware" - Sure, but that doesn't excuse this SCUMBAG. Put "replica" or "copy" in the title, then let the buyer beware. This is one of the many fronts where ebay could be improved. ebay should have tighter regulations of its auctions. The post earlier in this thread about the Mom buying something for her son really hit home. Must anyone who wishes to buy a coin-related gift for someone be an experienced numismatist to not be subjected to a total ripoff?!?!?
C'mon you "let the buyer beware" folks - this seller is all of those adjectives that will get my post pulled.....and you know it!!!
He does advertise a "1879 "GSA" Carson City Morgan Silver Dollar" (no word of replica here)
You can reserve your own 1879 "GSA"CC Morgan Silver Dollar Proof. (not here either)
It's the rare 1879 GSA Morgan as a 100 Mil Pure silver Proof (nor here either) Minted by the National Collectors Mint.
99 percent of his intro is about the real GSA Dollar. I think the average newbie could easily fall for this bait and switch unless he knows where the coin was really minted.
Well thank you Mr. Dealer for your help in introducing new people to our coin collecting fraternity. Maybe some will become lifetime collectors if they can forgive and forget and heal from your back stabbing initiation. I am sure the lesson they learned in coin dealer trust will be long remembered.
I believe this type of listing is a sure fire way for both the hobby and ebay to lose customers/ participants. I think the negative long-run effects (revenues) to both the hobby and ebay of ‘being duped’ on a coin listing, will outweigh the few bucks ebay and this seller get to line their pockets with tonight.
I agree w/ Conder that people should do their homework, but I also think this rationale is a bit too casual and unforgiving considering simple changes could be made that may significantly curb this type of listing.
A possibility would be for ebay to impose listing requirements for items sold as copies or replicas (I’m not talking about fakes or counterfeit). For instance, require the word “copy” or “replica” to be conspicuously displayed in the listing. Ebay could post this requirement on the “sell your item” page with a link to the listing agreement.
Ebay’s feedback system is a joke. A 100% system is ridiculous. Someone new to ebay may consider (as I initially did) that 98% is awesome. A 10 pt or different type of system would be more appropriate, with more weight given to, or different levels of negatives/positives which carry diff weights. Also, give more space to type negs and responses to negs. Allow users to query a member’s neg feedback to avoid having to search thru hundreds of comments to discover whether the seller or buyer is trustworthy.
Some may argue that this will discount positive feedback…I argue that positive feedback should be the norm, and this may help promote improved behavior.
It’s easy for us on this board to incorrectly assume that others’ posses a similar level of sophistication as we do when it comes to coins, ebay listings, scams, etc…The gift buyer is a good example, so is the dude with a slight learning disability, the newbie, a person who speaks English as a second language, the elderly guy who has lost a step, etc… I wonder if we would sympathize with this buyer if we could get the opportunity to meet him….…or would we ridicule him and call him an idiot for not doing his homework on 'Mils' and 'National Mints'.
As for taking a class in reading comprehension….I think a class in Ethics would be more appropriate.
I sent the following message to Ebay -- for all the good it will do:
"The above-referenced seller, "stockbidder2," has extremely deceptive listings, supposedly for 1879 CC proof silver dollars. He lists it as an "1879 Carson City Dollar" -- which it most assuredly is not. It's a cheap, silver-plated base-metal replica, worth a few bucks at most.
"But 99% of his description consists of a long, breathless ode to the glories of the 1879-CC dollar. Only at the very end does he finally say "National Collectors Mint" and "100 mil silver clad." He NEVER clearly discloses it's a copy -- and the "disclosures" would go right over the head of many average folks.
"He's obviously deceived many, and obviously rakes in plenty of money from his deception. Check his most recent 7 negative feedbackss. They ALL complain about being duped. Does he change his listing to clearly say "Replica"? No. He says, "tough luck; read the fine print." The most recent sucker paid $330 for this piece of junk. Moreover, this sleazebag apparently makes all of these "coin" auctions private, uses Western Union payment -- all the indicia of a con man at work.
"Ebay should eliminate private auctions and police this kind of activity. Unfortunately, Ebay seems to have decided to let all this slide. I've reported in the past similarly deceptive sellers of replica 1936 proof sets -- and Ebay has done absolutely nothing.
"Today's New York Times has a front page article about fraud on Ebay. All we Ebay members can can do is report it. If you ignore it, then Ebay will squander the extraordinary franchise and goodwill you have built up over the years, and Ebay may well end up being overtaken by an auction organization that takes seriously the prevention of deceptive practices."
<< <i>Agreed, and until it is learned, if they want to go around spending a bundle on things they are ignorant about yet, that's their business. But don't expect me to feel sorry for them. If you don't know about what you are buying either get help or don't buy. And if you do buy in ignorance and get taken, take your lumps and learn from it. Don't whine about something that is your own error. >>
Condor, I agree with much of what you have posted that I have seen and you are very knowledgable in the coin field. However, items like this post are elitist and ignorant in their own right.
Many people can be intelligent, can be new to coins (either wanting to buy for themselves or for a family member/friend as a nice gift), and may be just learning.
They may also not know where they can get help. Many of today's kids are great at computers, but not all are. Have you seen the post yesterday asking how many of the YNs know other YNs at their schools? Not many know others. You think all YNs have found their way here? I doubt it. So, if they don't find there way here, don't know others at their school, who are they supposed to learn from and trust? Dealers in their areas? YEAH RIGHT. For every dealer that is honest and willingly will spend time to teach a YN, there are at least a dozen more that won't or will try to rip them. So, the way you state things, it is their own fault they are "ignorant" and they should learn from it. BULL!
Flip the age spectrum. Older people that have a computer for email and simple browsing and have heard about ebay and want to try it. They are looking for something reasonably priced for a gift. They aren't looking to "rip" a GSA CC. They don't know better...the ad copy reads well. They aren't ebay pros. You seem to think that they should learn the hard way to become an ebay pro or ask someone.....you think all of them know someone who uses it or will take the time to help? If you do, then you live in a very special world my friend....very special indeed.
People that have found this board have found a wealth of knowledge.....but I can guarantee you that the people here represent a very small group in the scheme of coin collecting (I didn't use numistmatics because I think that is a little deeper than the simple start of collecting coins that I also mean to encompass with my broad statement).
So, for you, Ken, and others to think that people deserve to be ripped off, you are jaded, ignorant in this arena, or just plain mean. The only ones who deserve to be ripped off are the people trying to rip others off. Not someone's grandmother who is trying to find a nice graduation gift or someone mother who wants to give her son a nice birthday gift, etc.
You guys are just too good for normal human beings and revel in being the expert that people should go to and feel if someone isn't smart enough to come to you then they deserve what they get.
<< <i>I sent the following message to Ebay -- for all the good it will do:
"The above-referenced seller, "stockbidder2," has extremely deceptive listings, supposedly for 1879 CC proof silver dollars. He lists it as an "1879 Carson City Dollar" -- which it most assuredly is not. It's a cheap, silver-plated base-metal replica, worth a few bucks at most.
"But 99% of his description consists of a long, breathless ode to the glories of the 1879-CC dollar. Only at the very end does he finally say "National Collectors Mint" and "100 mil silver clad." He NEVER clearly discloses it's a copy -- and the "disclosures" would go right over the head of many average folks.
"He's obviously deceived many, and obviously rakes in plenty of money from his deception. Check his most recent 7 negative feedbackss. They ALL complain about being duped. Does he change his listing to clearly say "Replica"? No. He says, "tough luck; read the fine print." The most recent sucker paid $330 for this piece of junk. Moreover, this sleazebag apparently makes all of these "coin" auctions private, uses Western Union payment -- all the indicia of a con man at work.
"Ebay should eliminate private auctions and police this kind of activity. Unfortunately, Ebay seems to have decided to let all this slide. I've reported in the past similarly deceptive sellers of replica 1936 proof sets -- and Ebay has done absolutely nothing.
"Today's New York Times has a front page article about fraud on Ebay. All we Ebay members can can do is report it. If you ignore it, then Ebay will squander the extraordinary franchise and goodwill you have built up over the years, and Ebay may well end up being overtaken by an auction organization that takes seriously the prevention of deceptive practices." >>
So, for you, Ken, and others to think that people deserve to be ripped off, .....I never said anyone deserves to get ripped off!!!! Show me where I said that. I dare you to! I said that some people are lacking in "reading comprehension!!!" How in the world do you read that to mean someone deserves to be ripped off??? Maybe, just maybe, lack of reading comprehension on your part!!!!
<< <i> A real 1879-CC silver dollar is made according to specifications laid out in federal law -- anything that doesn't meet those specifications is a counterfeit, period, and illegal to represent as the real thing. >>
Actually one made TO those specifications would be the counterfeit, this one is not and is not represented as the real thing. (if you read the description.) So it is not illegal. >>
This is not a case of "buyer beware" -- it's a case of saying something is what it's not. I'm not a lawyer, but I am an expert in English grammar and usage. When someone says the coin is "a rare 1879-CC GSA silver dollar as a 100 mil silver proof," they are clearly trying to imply it is the real thing. The phrase "as a 100 mil silver proof" does not refute the assertion that the coin is "a rare 1879-CC GSA silver dollar." Since the law requires the word "copy" to be stamped on the coin, IMHO there's no reason why eBay (and the government) shouldn't require the seller to clearly state it is a copy as well. Not doing so is abetting fraud.
<< <i>So, for you, Ken, and others to think that people deserve to be ripped off, .....I never said anyone deserves to get ripped off!!!! Show me where I said that. I dare you to! I said that some people are lacking in "reading comprehension!!!" How in the world do you read that to mean someone deserves to be ripped off??? Maybe, just maybe, lack of reading comprehension on your part!!!! >>
I didn't say you said it explicitly, so, by your own reasoning, you appear to have lack of reading comprehension.
My point was simply that you have pointed out that people have a lack of reading comprehension and have intimated that that is their fault they be ripped off then. Not everyone knows every nuance. many people probably don't know exactly what National Collectors Mint is...nor the history of the products there. Not everyone probably knows the nuances of the written text....least of all those that are looking for a nice present for their numismatist they want to surprise.
I have seen you have the same type of attitude to these things before.
You know what you are doing in this hobby, so you feel everyone else should as well. That is how your posts come across. And, if you think I need to improve my reading comprehension because of it, then you are lashing out like that as a defense. "Reading comprehension" is part of my daily job and I seem to still be gainfully employed.
I'm replying to this thread again, in part, for a ttt. Further, I think that we as dedicated collectors/hobbyists/numismatists should absolutely BOMBARD ebay with emails when we come across an auction like this. If our hobby is to grow and attract new collectors, the newbies should not get burned as their first collecting experience.
Sure, we've all been burned from time to time (tuition, eh?), but that doesn't mean we can't minimize the type of behavior in this auction.
I will continue to email ebay whenever I come across a misleading auction. This seller got over $300 for one of these things!!! Sure, "buyer beware" but this is ridiculous.
Mike
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
In my world of ethics even stupid people, new collectors, the reading impaired do not deserve to be ripped. None of us are experts in all economic phases of like and none of us deserve to be ripped in any business transaction. You either believe this or you don't, its called ethical behavior and this clown is despicable in my book.
IrishMike and others - I agree that people should not get ripped off. I hope that all who agree with us will let ebay know when we see an auction like this. It's in all of our interest, including ebay's.
Mike
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>Today's New York Times has a front page article about fraud on Ebay. >>
It should have been titled you will be E-Screwed. Did anyone else notice how the EBay commercials about not getting ripped off on EBay lasted only a short time before being pulled?
<< <i>IrishMike and others - I agree that people should not get ripped off. I hope that all who agree with us will let ebay know when we see an auction like this. It's in all of our interest, including ebay's.
Mike >>
I'd like to see eBay create a separate category for copies and get this garbage out of the coins listings. Of course, that would anger all their Powersellers.
It's interesting to note that the NYT article focused on how eBay is trying to discourage anti-fraud vigilantes because they say their enforcement efforts are adequate
You know, almost every one of us on these boards can spot misleading auctions. Copies/replicas are well known - "dates", names, "mint", etc. How tough would it be for ebay to spot these and pull the ones that did not have "copy" or "replica" in the title? Same goes for title spamming (No coin is both NGC and PCGS!) and all the other "tricks" used by scum bag sellers to deceive.
ebay can be a great place to find what you want but the dregs have to be weeded out more effectively. Same goes for NPB's. ebay would be wise to emphasize fraud protection and cleaning up the coin "neighborhood" IMHO.
Mike
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
So, for you, Ken, and others to think that people deserve to be ripped off, you are jaded, ignorant in this arena, or just plain mean....Mr Bochiman, just what does that say? I think that it's time for some of you people to get real and start living in the real world. People get ripped off every single minute of every single day in all aspects of life. If they can't learn by their mistakes, then they'll get ripped time and again. I guess you, though, with your great reading comprehension, have never been ripped off. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just a simple fact of life, and we can't change or do anything about the large majority of them....JMO
BigAl
Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭
Comments
Sorry, but the man clearly tells you what you're getting. If you can't understand what he has written, you may need a class in reading comprehension....JMO....Ken
you don't think this may be confusing for someone?
If it's so blatent from his auction description that it's a fake, why not just come clean and type the word "copy"?
The auction is for a silver coated base metal novelty.
Forbid it, Almighty God!
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!
~PATRICK HENRY~
He knows exactly what he's doing. Listen to his typical response to negative feedback:
This is another example of people who Don't Read Auctions Fully/Then cry wolf.
Want to utterly waste some more time? Report him to eBay.
We ARE watching you.
What this auction "clearly tells" me is that it's the seller's intent to deceive. If he wasn't intentionally trying to deceive, he would have changed his auction description after the first complaint concerning sales of "replicas", to ensure no other bidders make the same false assumptions. I don't see how anyone can condone this type of listing.
1. the general population is below average in intelligence ~ if you don't agree, more than likely you are in this group
2. the average IQ is 100 ~ if you have an IQ of 130, one person exists with an IQ of 70 or two people score 85 or three people must have 90 IQ's to balance out your superbrain
I don't think this is a case of intelligence, just ignorance. When you start collecting coins you begin to learn the lingo and elements of your hobby. Someone new and with little or no guidance (which some may say is stupid) may not have learned that this item is not the item referred to in price guides. This is no different to me than a new collector buying third tier slabbed coins using PCGS pricing. They don't realize that MS-65 is not necessarily the MS-65 referred to in the pricing guides. It has to be learned.
Joe.
Edit: Yes these auctions are deceitful and meant to capture the individuals I refer to above. Joe.
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
Tom
Whenever I see these auctions I get really pi$$ed off, but mostly that A) Ebay allows this, and
You are doing well, subject 15837. You are a good person.
I guess I need to take a class on reading comprehension, right Ken?
<< <i>I don't think this is a case of intelligence, just ignorance. When you start collecting coins you begin to learn the lingo and elements of your hobby. Someone new and with little or no guidance (which some may say is stupid) may not have learned that this item is not the item referred to in price guides. This is no different to me than a new collector buying third tier slabbed coins using PCGS pricing. They don't realize that MS-65 is not necessarily the MS-65 referred to in the pricing guides. It has to be learned. >>
Agreed, and until it is learned, if they want to go around spending a bundle on things they are ignorant about yet, that's their business. But don't expect me to feel sorry for them. If you don't know about what you are buying either get help or don't buy. And if you do buy in ignorance and get taken, take your lumps and learn from it. Don't whine about something that is your own error.
Flim-Flam artists will never go away, and the smart ones learn all the legal loopholes. This one has obviously done all his homework.
Still, doesn't mean it sits well on the pallett.
"Buyer beware"
Craig
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minted by the National Collector's Mint
Specifications:
Composition: 100 Mil .999 Pure Silver Clad Base
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..
.Text guess I need to take a class on reading comprehension, right Ken?....I did not say you specifically needed one! However, after you read the parts I've included from the auction, and still don't understand, then I'd have to agree.....Ken
Follow me on MyCollect!
Life is unfair... I can't even say what i want to say...
But it's not good.
Ray
OK I keep checking this feedback thing mentioned often on this board & for the life of me where are the complaints. I see, for this guy, 7 negatives in the past 6 months. Thats not as bad as I had expected to see after reading the Ad. Am I not looking in the right place?
Although the bidder is technically at fault, the seller clearly knows what he's doing. His verbose auction description is ment to prey on those too lazy to read every word. Furthermore, if you look at the NEG's left by sellers, you can clearly see that he's been made aware of the confusion.
I don't see anything stating that these are copys, reproductions, or the like and not everyone knows that the "National Collector's Mint" is not an official mint.
Finally, how many people know what 100 Mil .999 Pure Silver Clad Base means? Heck, I'll bet more than half the board members here couldn't even tell you what a "mil" is! How about 39 mm diameter? I'm sure the only metric known by most of this country is "liter" as in two liter coke bottle.
<< <i>if they want to go around spending a bundle on things they are ignorant about yet, that's their business. But don't expect me to feel sorry for them. If you don't know about what you are buying either get help or don't buy. >>
MrPaseo did make one good point with his senario of someone trying to buy a collector a gift and getting taken. That is why I have always stressed to those close to me that they should NEVER try to buy me a coin gift because there are a lot of scams out there and that they are not qualified to judge them. Not because of any fault of theirs, but simply because coins are a specialized field and if they don't know what they are doing they will probably get taken.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
<< <i> A real 1879-CC silver dollar is made according to specifications laid out in federal law -- anything that doesn't meet those specifications is a counterfeit, period, and illegal to represent as the real thing. >>
Actually one made TO those specifications would be the counterfeit, this one is not and is not represented as the real thing. (if you read the description.) So it is not illegal.
Technically this seller may be accurate as he does list a semi-accurate description of the coin at the end, but he violates the entire spirit of trust that makes e-bay work to begin with. He knows he will catch unsuspecting fish and doesn't care-he's real pond scum!
Don't excuse him because he's technically correct in his listing; damn him for what he tries to accomplish with a listing that is obviously slanted away from the truth.
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
Didn't say in listing that coin was a copy,wanted pos F.B first before refund,F-
misleading ads for a novice/unethical/ no refunds/beware of plated/replica coins
Coin missrepresented . Won't return e-mails or calls. Watch out for this one.
Seller did not inform enough on product when asked if coin has a MS rating. FAKE
Intentionally misleading for profit - read carefully - not illegal, but unethical
AUCTION WAS MISLEADING-NO MENTION OF A COPY-NO ANSWER TO E-MAILS-BEWARE
Refusing to work thru mediator, means not good to deal with.
Why doesn't one of these buyers just state "Carson City Morgans ARE FAKE" in their neg?
Considering the many more private Auctions this guys feedback shows, there are obviously more people that this guy duped, they just don't know they have been duped.
I wonder if any of these buyers have/will crack the fake out, put it in a flip, and relist it as the real thing.
Jim
I thought "COPY" was clearly stamped at the bottom of the reverse. which is probably why he doesn't post a pic of the reverse.
Anyone know where I can get some of those!!!
Jim
<< <i>What this auction "clearly tells" me is that it's the seller's intent to deceive. If he wasn't intentionally trying to deceive, he would have changed his auction description after the first complaint concerning sales of "replicas", to ensure no other bidders make the same false assumptions. I don't see how anyone can condone this type of listing. >>
I agree fully!
<< <i>I think "National Collectors Mint" in big and bold lettering should be enough for a human with at least average intelligence to figure it out. Also Big Al is right. If people just checked a guys feedback then they should be able to figure out that what they're bidding on is probably not authentic. >>
One problem is that people may assume that the NCM is the National Mint!
<< <i>I've e-mailed several high bidders on copies like these and always been rewarded with a sincere thank you and an expression of "how could I have been so foolish..."
Technically this seller may be accurate as he does list a semi-accurate description of the coin at the end, but he violates the entire spirit of trust that makes e-bay work to begin with. He knows he will catch unsuspecting fish and doesn't care-he's real pond scum!
Don't excuse him because he's technically correct in his listing; damn him for what he tries to accomplish with a listing that is obviously slanted away from the truth. >>
Amen brother! Its interesting to note that the seller doesn't allow the bidders ID's to be revealed! That's a clear tip-off of a fraud!
C'mon you "let the buyer beware" folks - this seller is all of those adjectives that will get my post pulled.....and you know it!!!
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>"Buyer beware" - Sure, but that doesn't excuse this SCUMBAG. Put "replica" or "copy" in the title, then let the buyer beware. This is one of the many fronts where ebay could be improved. ebay should have tighter regulations of its auctions. The post earlier in this thread about the Mom buying something for her son really hit home. Must anyone who wishes to buy a coin-related gift for someone be an experienced numismatist to not be subjected to a total ripoff?!?!?
C'mon you "let the buyer beware" folks - this seller is all of those adjectives that will get my post pulled.....and you know it!!!
Mike >>
AMEN
You can reserve your own 1879 "GSA"CC Morgan Silver Dollar Proof. (not here either)
It's the rare 1879 GSA Morgan as a 100 Mil Pure silver Proof (nor here either) Minted by the National Collectors Mint.
99 percent of his intro is about the real GSA Dollar.
I think the average newbie could easily fall for this bait and switch unless he knows where the coin was really minted.
Well thank you Mr. Dealer for your help in introducing new people to our coin collecting fraternity. Maybe some will become lifetime collectors if they can forgive and forget and heal from your back stabbing initiation.
I am sure the lesson they learned in coin dealer trust will be long remembered.
A few quick thoughts:
I believe this type of listing is a sure fire way for both the hobby and ebay to lose customers/ participants. I think the negative long-run effects (revenues) to both the hobby and ebay of ‘being duped’ on a coin listing, will outweigh the few bucks ebay and this seller get to line their pockets with tonight.
I agree w/ Conder that people should do their homework, but I also think this rationale is a bit too casual and unforgiving considering simple changes could be made that may significantly curb this type of listing.
A possibility would be for ebay to impose listing requirements for items sold as copies or replicas (I’m not talking about fakes or counterfeit). For instance, require the word “copy” or “replica” to be conspicuously displayed in the listing. Ebay could post this requirement on the “sell your item” page with a link to the listing agreement.
Ebay’s feedback system is a joke. A 100% system is ridiculous. Someone new to ebay may consider (as I initially did) that 98% is awesome. A 10 pt or different type of system would be more appropriate, with more weight given to, or different levels of negatives/positives which carry diff weights. Also, give more space to type negs and responses to negs. Allow users to query a member’s neg feedback to avoid having to search thru hundreds of comments to discover whether the seller or buyer is trustworthy.
Some may argue that this will discount positive feedback…I argue that positive feedback should be the norm, and this may help promote improved behavior.
It’s easy for us on this board to incorrectly assume that others’ posses a similar level of sophistication as we do when it comes to coins, ebay listings, scams, etc…The gift buyer is a good example, so is the dude with a slight learning disability, the newbie, a person who speaks English as a second language, the elderly guy who has lost a step, etc… I wonder if we would sympathize with this buyer if we could get the opportunity to meet him….…or would we ridicule him and call him an idiot for not doing his homework on 'Mils' and 'National Mints'.
As for taking a class in reading comprehension….I think a class in Ethics would be more appropriate.
"The above-referenced seller, "stockbidder2," has extremely deceptive listings, supposedly for 1879 CC proof silver dollars. He lists it as an "1879 Carson City Dollar" -- which it most assuredly is not. It's a cheap, silver-plated base-metal replica, worth a few bucks at most.
"But 99% of his description consists of a long, breathless ode to the glories of the 1879-CC dollar. Only at the very end does he finally say "National Collectors Mint" and "100 mil silver clad." He NEVER clearly discloses it's a copy -- and the "disclosures" would go right over the head of many average folks.
"He's obviously deceived many, and obviously rakes in plenty of money from his deception. Check his most recent 7 negative feedbackss. They ALL complain about being duped. Does he change his listing to clearly say "Replica"? No. He says, "tough luck; read the fine print." The most recent sucker paid $330 for this piece of junk. Moreover, this sleazebag apparently makes all of these "coin" auctions private, uses Western Union payment -- all the indicia of a con man at work.
"Ebay should eliminate private auctions and police this kind of activity. Unfortunately, Ebay seems to have decided to let all this slide. I've reported in the past similarly deceptive sellers of replica 1936 proof sets -- and Ebay has done absolutely nothing.
"Today's New York Times has a front page article about fraud on Ebay. All we Ebay members can can do is report it. If you ignore it, then Ebay will squander the extraordinary franchise and goodwill you have built up over the years, and Ebay may well end up being overtaken by an auction organization that takes seriously the prevention of deceptive practices."
<< <i>Agreed, and until it is learned, if they want to go around spending a bundle on things they are ignorant about yet, that's their business. But don't expect me to feel sorry for them. If you don't know about what you are buying either get help or don't buy. And if you do buy in ignorance and get taken, take your lumps and learn from it. Don't whine about something that is your own error. >>
Condor, I agree with much of what you have posted that I have seen and you are very knowledgable in the coin field. However, items like this post are elitist and ignorant in their own right.
Many people can be intelligent, can be new to coins (either wanting to buy for themselves or for a family member/friend as a nice gift), and may be just learning.
They may also not know where they can get help. Many of today's kids are great at computers, but not all are. Have you seen the post yesterday asking how many of the YNs know other YNs at their schools? Not many know others. You think all YNs have found their way here? I doubt it. So, if they don't find there way here, don't know others at their school, who are they supposed to learn from and trust? Dealers in their areas? YEAH RIGHT. For every dealer that is honest and willingly will spend time to teach a YN, there are at least a dozen more that won't or will try to rip them.
So, the way you state things, it is their own fault they are "ignorant" and they should learn from it. BULL!
Flip the age spectrum. Older people that have a computer for email and simple browsing and have heard about ebay and want to try it. They are looking for something reasonably priced for a gift. They aren't looking to "rip" a GSA CC. They don't know better...the ad copy reads well. They aren't ebay pros.
You seem to think that they should learn the hard way to become an ebay pro or ask someone.....you think all of them know someone who uses it or will take the time to help? If you do, then you live in a very special world my friend....very special indeed.
People that have found this board have found a wealth of knowledge.....but I can guarantee you that the people here represent a very small group in the scheme of coin collecting (I didn't use numistmatics because I think that is a little deeper than the simple start of collecting coins that I also mean to encompass with my broad statement).
So, for you, Ken, and others to think that people deserve to be ripped off, you are jaded, ignorant in this arena, or just plain mean. The only ones who deserve to be ripped off are the people trying to rip others off. Not someone's grandmother who is trying to find a nice graduation gift or someone mother who wants to give her son a nice birthday gift, etc.
You guys are just too good for normal human beings and revel in being the expert that people should go to and feel if someone isn't smart enough to come to you then they deserve what they get.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I sent the following message to Ebay -- for all the good it will do:
"The above-referenced seller, "stockbidder2," has extremely deceptive listings, supposedly for 1879 CC proof silver dollars. He lists it as an "1879 Carson City Dollar" -- which it most assuredly is not. It's a cheap, silver-plated base-metal replica, worth a few bucks at most.
"But 99% of his description consists of a long, breathless ode to the glories of the 1879-CC dollar. Only at the very end does he finally say "National Collectors Mint" and "100 mil silver clad." He NEVER clearly discloses it's a copy -- and the "disclosures" would go right over the head of many average folks.
"He's obviously deceived many, and obviously rakes in plenty of money from his deception. Check his most recent 7 negative feedbackss. They ALL complain about being duped. Does he change his listing to clearly say "Replica"? No. He says, "tough luck; read the fine print." The most recent sucker paid $330 for this piece of junk. Moreover, this sleazebag apparently makes all of these "coin" auctions private, uses Western Union payment -- all the indicia of a con man at work.
"Ebay should eliminate private auctions and police this kind of activity. Unfortunately, Ebay seems to have decided to let all this slide. I've reported in the past similarly deceptive sellers of replica 1936 proof sets -- and Ebay has done absolutely nothing.
"Today's New York Times has a front page article about fraud on Ebay. All we Ebay members can can do is report it. If you ignore it, then Ebay will squander the extraordinary franchise and goodwill you have built up over the years, and Ebay may well end up being overtaken by an auction organization that takes seriously the prevention of deceptive practices." >>
That's a blisteringly good note!
<< <i>
<< <i> A real 1879-CC silver dollar is made according to specifications laid out in federal law -- anything that doesn't meet those specifications is a counterfeit, period, and illegal to represent as the real thing. >>
Actually one made TO those specifications would be the counterfeit, this one is not and is not represented as the real thing. (if you read the description.) So it is not illegal. >>
This is not a case of "buyer beware" -- it's a case of saying something is what it's not. I'm not a lawyer, but I am an expert in English grammar and usage. When someone says the coin is "a rare 1879-CC GSA silver dollar as a 100 mil silver proof," they are clearly trying to imply it is the real thing. The phrase "as a 100 mil silver proof" does not refute the assertion that the coin is "a rare 1879-CC GSA silver dollar." Since the law requires the word "copy" to be stamped on the coin, IMHO there's no reason why eBay (and the government) shouldn't require the seller to clearly state it is a copy as well. Not doing so is abetting fraud.
<< <i>So, for you, Ken, and others to think that people deserve to be ripped off, .....I never said anyone deserves to get ripped off!!!! Show me where I said that. I dare you to! I said that some people are lacking in "reading comprehension!!!" How in the world do you read that to mean someone deserves to be ripped off??? Maybe, just maybe, lack of reading comprehension on your part!!!! >>
I didn't say you said it explicitly, so, by your own reasoning, you appear to have lack of reading comprehension.
My point was simply that you have pointed out that people have a lack of reading comprehension and have intimated that that is their fault they be ripped off then. Not everyone knows every nuance. many people probably don't know exactly what National Collectors Mint is...nor the history of the products there. Not everyone probably knows the nuances of the written text....least of all those that are looking for a nice present for their numismatist they want to surprise.
I have seen you have the same type of attitude to these things before.
You know what you are doing in this hobby, so you feel everyone else should as well. That is how your posts come across. And, if you think I need to improve my reading comprehension because of it, then you are lashing out like that as a defense. "Reading comprehension" is part of my daily job and I seem to still be gainfully employed.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Sure, we've all been burned from time to time (tuition, eh?), but that doesn't mean we can't minimize the type of behavior in this auction.
I will continue to email ebay whenever I come across a misleading auction. This seller got over $300 for one of these things!!! Sure, "buyer beware" but this is ridiculous.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>Today's New York Times has a front page article about fraud on Ebay. >>
It should have been titled you will be E-Screwed. Did anyone else notice how the EBay commercials about not getting ripped off on EBay lasted only a short time before being pulled?
<< <i>IrishMike and others - I agree that people should not get ripped off. I hope that all who agree with us will let ebay know when we see an auction like this. It's in all of our interest, including ebay's.
Mike >>
I'd like to see eBay create a separate category for copies and get this garbage out of the coins listings. Of course, that would anger all their Powersellers.
It's interesting to note that the NYT article focused on how eBay is trying to discourage anti-fraud vigilantes because they say their enforcement efforts are adequate
ebay can be a great place to find what you want but the dregs have to be weeded out more effectively. Same goes for NPB's. ebay would be wise to emphasize fraud protection and cleaning up the coin "neighborhood" IMHO.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!