In your experiences, how often does "highest graded/certified" equate with "finest kn

coinguy1

If you don't know how to grade well, please don't bother to reply

mgoodm3

Welcome back.

MadMarty

Hey I have plenty of the highest graded/finest known AU58s around!!!

FC57Coins

HEY! I thought you were in self imposed exile to a land far far away full of bikini clad babes???

I think I know what you're getting at, and the answer in my mind is eye appeal. I have seen coins, particularly rare gold, where the highest graded coin in 61 or 62 can't hold a candle to a "crusty" nicely colored 58.

Anyway - welcome back - got any new Frankies???

BurritoGrande

I suppose it would depend on what you mean by "finest," as illustrated by FC57Coins.

JadeRareCoin

I deal mostly in early US issues and colonial coins, so the "highest graded/certified" is usually not even close to "finest known". How many colonial coins in the John J. Ford collection are certified? Do you see my point?

coinguy1

BurritoGrande, "Finest" = "best/highest quality" for purposes of this discussion.

By the way, I see that at least two people, whose names I wont mention (Marty and Frank) have replied to this thread, despite my request "If you don't know how to grade well, please don't bother to reply"

coinlieutenant

I would like to respond but dont think I am quite there experience wise yet...

FC57Coins

<< <i>By the way, I see that at least two people, whose names I wont mention (Marty and Frank) have replied to this thread, despite my request "If you don't know how to grade well, please don't bother to reply" >>




I see that time off from the boards has not improved the third rate humor in your posts

braddick

There is an MS68 PCGS 1964 Kennedy out there... it's owned by board member MS68 (there's the irony). It is, IMHO, the finest MintState 90% Kennedy there is. Unless one is tucked away somewhere, it stands as the finest known, not just via the grade, but by its appeal.

Now, I guess a larger question looms: If there is a finer known Kennedy lurking in a Dansco or the back recesses of a gun safe, somewhere but there is NO one to see it, is it like the tree falling in the forest with NO one to hear it?
Does it make a sound? Does it then not exist?!

Mark, my head hurts.

stman

Well, if it's the highest grade on the plastic, and the dealer selling it says..."This is the best I've seen." Then I know it must be the truth because they have my best interest in their heart, and I indeed must have the "Finest known."

I don't know what I'd do without these folks around to educate me, and tell me whats undervalued as well.

291fifth

Finest Known is often debatable and subject to a hype factor. Highest graded/certified doesn't mean much of anything due to grading service inconsistency over time.

mgoodm3

If you've got the highest rated registry the answer would be "always."

Lakesammman

I have 2 66 red IHC's not in the pop. reports. The 65 R's are regularly offered as finest known.

Clankeye

I really don't have experiences that would qualify me to answer the question, Coinguy. But, I had to post to your thread and say welcome back. You were missed.

Clankeye

DrPete

The answer is complex and is partly a definitional issue like so many logical arguments. It depends. IMHO with the more traditional older series of coins, often the highest graded certified coins are the finest known. The unknown factor is less here than it is in more modern series where there is a higher potential for more discovery of coins that haven't been submitted or seen to then end up as the new king of the hill.

Highly touted rare coins with only a few known examples are easier to be certain about, coins such as the 1804 dollars, 1913 nickels, 1894-S dimes, and the like. In the series I collect, barber halves, most of the highest graded coins are likely the finest known, although I acknowledge there may well be coins or sets put away that haven't been graded. Time has shown that very few such coins have come to market in the past 5-6 years.

Another way to approach your somewhat nebulous but interesting query is that there is no one definition for what constitutes "finest known" and thus it is entirely subjective and debatable.

tradedollarnut

Good answer from DrPete. In the series I pay attention to, I'll say about 75% of the time. There's always the problem of wonder coins that aren't certified, different grade standards between when coins were certified and also different standards between PCGS and NGC.

cladking

I've always been highly dubious of the term. Even in cases where an individual
has actually seen all known examples or can account for all known examples, it
can still come down to a matter of opinion; one man's beauty can be another man's
beast. The term does get used a lot and should probably be reserved only for
those few issues that such determination might have real meaning.

There may be some exceptions, such as a coin which is a two full grades higher
than the undergrades. Collectors should simply understand that no one can really
account for more than a few dozen of an issue.

merz2

I'd say that only 75% of the time are they one and the same coin.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>I deal mostly in early US issues and colonial coins, so the "highest graded/certified" is usually not even close to "finest known". How many colonial coins in the John J. Ford collection are certified? Do you see my point? >>



Ditto.

JrGMan2004

Nice topic for discussion... like others have said, it comes down to YOUR exact definition of "finest known." For example, say the finest known certified Morgan for a certain date was MS67, but look butt ugly, one person might think that an MS66++ with great Rainbows was the finest known b/c of it's extreme eye appeal, even though the technical grade might be a little less. It really comes down to what you think, maybe in your opinion the rainbow should get a point bump b/c of eye appeal, and think that it's the finest known...


Edited to remove stupidity

cameoproofcoins

I see many coins that are the highest graded, but really aren't that nice. For example I have seen two coins at the same grade and one will have flecks on it. It is toughted as tied for finest known. I would say it is tied for finest graded, but I wouldn't own it.

mdwoods

It's hard to tell because there are probably a few really great collections/coins out there that most of us will never know about unless there is a big auction. Some of those coins are bound to be raw and fantastic specimens.

jcping

Since I only saw some highest graded Ike dollars in person, I could only speak for the Ike dollars.

Here are my two cents:
For many dates, one of the highest graded/certified Ike dollars is equal to THE finest known.
Note that there are only two dates with pop 1/0 (72-P type one and 76-D type one).

For some dates, e.g., 72-D, I don't think any highest graded/certified one is THE finest known.
I still believe The finest known 72-D is in an MS66 holder.

Conder101

Don't trust slabbed grades on early copper. There are many early large cents and half cents out there in slabs with grades that are higher than the finest known in the EAC census which won't even make it into the top ten of the census. Case in point is lot 2 of last weeks ANR sale. It is a 1793 C-1a in an NGC MS-63BN holder that they say is the finest known for the variety. This coin was in the Bill Weber collection. It originally came out of an NGC AU-50 holder and is in the EAC census as tied for fourth finest known as an XF-45. Finest known in the EAC census are two MS-60's. (Interesting how it went up six grades between one NGC holder and another NGC holder as well.)

edsondl

I would offer two questions


1. Following Braddick, "finest known" to whom? To PCGS based on grade, then always, unless the company offically acknowledges the coin is in some other holder. Finest "existing example," that would be different and subject to controversy in delininating what is "The best"?

2. How many coins in the Smithsonian, or other museum or similar institutional collection could be the "finest known" examples, having come directly from the mint or an astute collection and will never be slabbed? Do you think that previous curation of many of these specimens disqualifies them from "finest known" status?

Lakesammman

The only way to really know would be to get the extant examples together and compare them, the comparison carried out by independent parties w/o a "dog in the hunt". As far as I know, the EAC folks are the only ones to have done this in any sort of a organized, sophisticated fashion. Have other series even come close to this?? Bust nuts??

LincolnCentMan

Nope...

David

roadrunner

On Liberty Seated half dimes through halves I'd estimate around 50%. I tracked all the high powered seated quarters that came to auction or via advertisements in the 1975-1990 period and was aware of many of the pieces that came to the market. A decent number of them do not appear on the pop reports yet. No empirical data other than my gut feel. One such piece is the James Stack 1865-s quarter that was bought by Paramount in 3/75. I haven't seen or heard of that coin since. It would be a MS67 or 68 today and was a near twin of the 67-s in that sale. What other coins is the owner of that piece also keeping back? There are also coins that few are aware of that have not come to market in generations. Those could skew the numbers another 15-30%.

roadrunner

michael

a fantastic thread

with great responses



michael

MadMarty

<< <i>By the way, I see that at least two people, whose names I wont mention (Marty and Frank) have replied to this thread, despite my request "If you don't know how to grade well, please don't bother to reply" >>



Ouch! That really hurts!!! Now I have made many top pop coins! I have made all 3 MS67 1966 No FG Kennedys! Mark, I'm hurt!

Shamika

I think it depends on the series.

If the series is truely rare, I'd guess highest graded equates with finiest known at least 95% of the time.

If its a faily common series i.e. post 1935 Lincolns, I'd guess it's less than 30%.

MacCoin

finest known is to much hype. I have a pop 1 jeff that don't look any better than any other jeff of the same grade. like I said finest is a lot of bs.