Set up coins for PCGS grading

coltgus

I don't understand this concept. For example, I have a 1911-S $5 Indian in MS63 that has a slim chance of an upgrade, a 1876 IHC PR65 Cam with a big chance, and several $500 coins that I want to try to upgrade. So what would be the best way. Thanks.

Peaceman

Not play the upgrade game and sell them "in-between" grades..... You'll start crying if one comes back in a BB.... then you'll have to submit again.....wait....again.... wait.... forget it.....

razorface1027

I agree with peaceman. Unless, of course, you have a keen eye for grading...

Keyrock

My understanding of the setup coins is as follows:

You have a few coins you like in the same series. The next jump may swing the coin from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars (i.e 64 to a 65). Lets say your coins are PQ 64s (you feal the graders may be hesitant due to the value jump and grade guarantee). You submitt those candidates along with a fair example of a 64 and a ok 65. I believe the thought is looking at the group as a whole the two PQs should be in the same category of the "ok" 65 and not with the "fair 64".

I have only heard of it working (or being done) within the series. Mixing up series doesn't work (i.e. a half dime, a merc and two walkers).

Hope it helps. Rich

roadrunner

I agree with trying to stick to the same series but mixing has worked with me for say type coins or gold coins as a collective group.

The ideal lead in coin for your 65++ Proof Indian is another one that is solid for the grade. If your PQ coin puts it too shame, and you are convinced the coin will not BB, then that is the ideal setup coin for you. It would be best if that coinj were also a no brainer cameo too and that your 2nd piece is just as nice cameo wise. A safer way to do this is to resubmit both coins in the holders. If there is a big diff side by side, you have a fair chance at the upgrade with no risk except your two grade fees and postage. I would not do these at a show but rather send them to PCGS. Show grading is all over the place and usually too strict. Don't waste your time imo.

If you have another Indian Cent that fits the bill as a setup coin that use that. Another choice is to be on the lookout for a decent PCGS PF 65 indian that you buy just for the setup potential. You have time on your side...just be on the lookout. I recently sent in 3 seated halves to PGCS that were all old holdered 65's. But some where nicer than the others imo. I graded them 65++, 66, and 66+. I put the weakest one first to set up the other 3. Lucky for me they all came out 66. All were left in the holders.

Hold on to your 1911-s until you have a setup gold coin to go with it...preferably an Indian gold coin.

roadrunner

kieferscoins

Some graders start in th back of the tray and the others start from the front. They can chose how they want to do it, so a set-up coin might have to be on either side. I don't think it helps.

Cameron Kiefer

Russ

<< <i>Not play the upgrade game and sell them "in-between" grades..... You'll start crying if one comes back in a BB.... >>



No balls, no blue chips.

Russ, NCNE

roadrunner

Of course there is never a guarantee. I can only go from my personal experience with NGC back in the 1988-1991 market. I submitted hundreds of coins for crackouts to the tune of probably
$250,000. My hit rate was far far better than my miss rate. I set up coins in both ascending and descending orders. I usually preferred the ascending order and would often toss in one low end coin in that end for a mercy bump. Often that would pay for the order even if nothing else hit. Yes, things are different today but the concepts are the same. Any time you bet on anything you just try to put as many things in your favor as you can. There is no question that this helps. To ignore it makes no sense to me at all.

I can offer a corrollary:

The odds of getting audited by the IRS are not purely random. They should be but they aren't. There are flags you can try not to trip than lower your odds. It doesn't always work but the odds are tipped in your favor. And it is also true that the odds for an audit are less if you file later in the year rather than sooner. The IRS does do purely random audits and your chances of getting picked out of the hat are greater in April-May than in June-August. Anyone can delay filing until August 15th, you just have to pay your estimated taxes by April 15th. Always put the odds in your favor like the Monsterman says. Same with stocks or anything else. That's the way the casinos and the insurance companies play the game.
Unfortunately humans are emotional beings that place bets by emotion and unfounded facts, that's why the house always wins and the crowd always loses.

roadrunner

coltgus

Thanks to all, especially roadrunner. It just so happens I have a 1908-S $5 Indian in MS64 to use as a setup. The coins are very similar except the cheek on the 1911-S in MS63 looks a little dirty. Would acetone clean it without hurting the coin ?

roadrunner

Coltgus, I'm not sure how you would you use that MS64 Indian to set up the MS63+ one. If the MS64 looks very similar to the 2nd one that it might help as the leading coin (descending grade order).

Nothing is for certain however. Just 2 months ago I sent in a group of 3 PCGS $20 LIbs. One was a very PQ 63++, another was a monster PQ64++ that I paid a strong premium for an auction. My goal was to get the 64++ upgraded as well as the first coin. I happened to have a very solid (or so I thought) PCGS 64 that I tossed in as the middle coin as it looked very similar to the 63++ coin. Well darned if NGC didn't MS64 the first coin, and then preceeded to bash the next 2 pieces down to MS63 (I cracked them all out). I showed the results to several gold dealers who were incredulous that they could 63 the last coin. I did make out on the first coin but had to resubmit the other 2 to get back to where I started. They both came back 64 on the next submission. I'm sure someone out there will eventually get that 64++ to go up to a 65 but I lost my confidence in it when it came back a 63! I still made a profit on it but it just goes to show how fickle and variable the services can be. If you can keep the coins in the holders and present a nice case by including comparison coins, I don't see how this cannot be to one's advantage.


roadrunner

MrEureka

Well darned if NGC didn't MS64 the first coin, and then preceeded to bash the next 2 pieces down to MS63

Roadrunner - I believe that (at least in recent years) NGC randomly shuffles the order of coins in each submission so that they will not be subject to "set-up bias". Now, maybe they blew the grading on your coins, or maybe you blew it, but it probably has nothing to do with the order of coins on your NGC invoice.

Placid

I just send them in the slab for regrade. I get upgrades about 50% of the time on the ones I think will.
You never will get a bodybag or a lower grade that way.
The graders get them raw anyway.

roadrunner

Mr Eureka,

But one thing is for certain...."probably" is related to probability. Now how can I use that in getting upgrades......mmmmmmm.
It is certainly no surprise that many crack-out artists have gone the way of a T-rex. I am usually content (at least most of the time) to sell off PQ coins as just that, rather than getting hammered by NGC.
And make no mistake about it....it is definitely NGC's variability. While they may be excellent on moderns they have lost their consistency on seated coins. When I get consistent 1-2 pt. swings on the same coins, it is not just "probably," it is definitely.

roadrunner

RELLA

<< <i>When I get consistent 1-2 pt. swings on the same coins >>

Really? It's that bad?

RELLA