Who should pay for lost coins : buyer or the seller?
relayer
Posts: 10,570 ✭
Feb 1- I bought 2 gold coins on eBay for $675
Feb 2 - I send a money order (both the seller and myself are in southern California)
Feb 9 - The seller mailed the coins insured for $675
Feb 17- The post office handed me an empty padded envelope that had been ripped open. The clerk had me sign a claim form and then said they would send it to the seller.
Feb 27 - I emailed him asking for a refund and he said he couldn't do that. Since it was close to 30 days I filed 2 cases with SquareTrade (he is a seal member)
Feb 28 - He responded to one case:
Buyer purchased two coins from me for a total of $672.31. The coins were shipped on 2/9/2004 via USPS first class insured mail #xxx. The package arrived ripped open and the coins are missing. A postal claim is being filed. Buyer is asking me for a refund but since the coins was lost in the possession of United Stated Postal Service, the responsibility is theirs. Please be patient and let USPS handle the issue. Since then he has ignored my emails asking for the status.
Mar 6 - I sent him a demand for payment letter via certified mail
Mar 9 - He responded to the 2nd SquareTrade case with Claim form received. I will fill it oou and send back to you.
My position is he should issue me a refund and then he can get reimbursed from the postal claim. His position seems to be it's not his problem.
Because he is local, I can take him to small claims court. To me SquareTrade is a joke.
How long should I wait before filing a case in small claims court?
On a secondary note, he has left me positive feedback. What feedback would you leave?
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This happened to me last month. Maybe it will help. It ended well with the sellers help.
My lost Morgan story....
Tom
42/92
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Investigate before you speak! On the claim form, the check can go to either party.
Thanksgiving National Battlefield Coin Show is November 29-30, 2024 at the Eisenhower Allstar Sportsplex, Gettysburg, PA. Tables are available. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
So I would proceed:
1. Ask for phone number so "we can talk and make sure that the claims process through the USPS is properly initiated so that I can eventually get my money back" -- that is, don't bring up the issue of who's out the $675 at this point.
2. Then proceeed as above.
If he refuses to talk, then you may want to think about small claims court, but since everything there is at the discretion of the judge who isn't alwys bound to the rules of law, you probably would wnat to be able to show that your seller is not being cooperative in the filing of a USPS claim.
So as long as it is just a matter of time for the USPS to process a claim, I would suggest that small claims court is not your answer. But if he is not helpful in resolving the claim and you have documentation to the affect (unfortuantely lack of email can come down to your word vs. his) --- especially documentation where he refuses your reaosnable request to get the claim going, then I would start to say "hello, small claims court".
This probbly doesn't help much, but good luck recovering your money in a timely way.
Pete
In my case since I signed for the package not knowing whom it was from and not knowing what was missing. I'm the one who had to basicaly file the claim with the slit opened envelope.
If I caught it(slit opened and item removed) before I signed I never would have accepted it and requested a refund from the seller or through the Paypal mumbo jumbo and what ever course it took.
Yes, the seller could of said "you sliced the envelope and took the coin to make like it was stolen" and I could of said " you shipped an empty envelope with a slit in it to make it look like it was stolen" around and around we could have went.........
Tom
The seller says too bad and the buyer has to eat it?
<< <i>What happens if the post office decides to deny the claim for some reason? The seller says too bad and the buyer has to eat it? >>
The post will offer an explanation. If they declare improper packaging then the seller will be accountable. I can't see any other reason they could deny this claim. Again, be patient. I have had many claims with the Post Office and they have always paid. It just takes time.
<< <i>A seller should not refund until the post office has investigated and paid the claim. The reason is, the seller has no way of knowing if the item was signed for or not. With the amount of people doing bogus chargebacks with PayPal, it is not unreasonable to think they are pulling the same thing claiming they did not receive an insured package. This really falls under the category of a few bad apples spoil the bunch, but sellers have to protect themselves. Allow the postal claim to go through the process, this takes four to eight weeks. >>
Huh? I had a buyer say he never reveived a coin I sent.
I called the local post office and gave them the insurance number and the were able to tell me date it was delivered and the first and last name of the person who signed for it in about a minute.
They also said if I came in they could give me a hard copy.
I called the local post office and gave them the insurance number and the were able to tell me date it was delivered and the first and last name of the person who signed for it in about a minute.
They also said if I came in they could give me a hard copy.">>
Exactly, that little number on your insurance receipt is a tracking number which your post office branch (but not you) can use to tell exactly what happened to the package on the other end.
The post office denying the claim is another factor. If the post office denies the claim it will be the sellers problem because I’ll get a judgment against him. So if it is going to go down that route then I might as well file suit now instead of waiting.
When the postal clerk took the envelope she made a copy for me and wrote, “Package received empty”. All I have is that piece of paper. He has my money, the insurance receipt and the claim form and not much interest in the project of getting my money back.
The fact that he has had claims denied the post office is also a concern.
On 2/17 I sent him this email and got this response.
I have some bad news. I went to the post office today and the package arrived ripped open and was empty. No sign of either coin.
The clerk gave me a claim form to sign and she said she would be in contact with you. Just wanted to let you know.
Regards,
Doug
Wow Doug: I'm sorry. I have the original insurance receipt insured for $673. Let me know if anyway that I can help. You know, this been happening to me lately. I lost an 1884-O $1 when the envelope was ripped opened. I also lost a Chinese Flying Dragon Coin out of a registered package worth $1500. I filed a claim to the post office and they said there's no sign of tampering on the package. They denied my claim. It sure looks like an inside job to me because how a registered package show no sign of tampering unless the person opened the package up and has access to the postal stamps and tapes to re-tape the package. Also, some of my customers lost coins the same way before. I use two different post offices, so I believe this is happening in the postal processing facility. Please let your local postal inspector know about this and maybe they can start a thorough investigation. Good Luck
When I asked about a refund I got this response. Since then he doesn’t talk to me anymore.
I'm sorry I can't issue you a refund from my end, but I will do my best to follow through with the claim. My apologies
When he uses phrases like “Good Luck” and “I will do my best to follow through with the claim” it doesn’t inspire confidence
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Am I to assume he sent $673 worth of coins in a bubble mailer, regular insured with a blue insurance label? If he did this, you have him on careless packaging. First of all, coins of that value should not be sent in bubble mailers. Second, for coins of that value, the only way to send them is registered mail. In fact, I have got to the point where I send anything over $300 registered.
No wonder this guy has had a lot of stuff missing. You don't send high dollar coins regular insured mail, the blue label and lots of postage have 'steal me' written all over them.
K6AZ,
Yes, both coins were together in a padded bubble mailer with the blue insurance sticker with $9.28 in postage on it.
The package was ripped open in the center on the reverse. I gave the clerk pictures and the serial numbers on the slabs the next day in case they were turned in (like there was a chance of that happening).
Tropper,
Looks like you were lucky since yours were lost the same time as mine. The difference is you have you money back by now, and I'm wondering if my seller is even taken an interest in it.
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Also if the buyer purchases insurance, it is the buyers insurance. Just as long as the seller purchased the insurance on behalf of the buyer, it is the buyers responsibility to file a claim when the package arrives or does not arrive in tact. Most shipping companies want proof from the buyer that the goods did not arrive. The seller cannot provide this information.
The seller must assist the buyer by providing the appropriate documentation such as the receipt and tracking number and insurance information, but it is not the sellers responsibility to follow-up with the Shipping Company/Post Office. There is a form which the buyer must sign and sometimes get notarized if the insurance was over a certain amount.
Even if you are buying a 10.00 item online, and insurance is 1.10, it is worth it. You are guaranteed to receive your item or the cash back.
We have all taken risks and have gotten ripped off. It really stinks when that happens.
It happened to me 3 times on ebay. As a matter of fact, in one instance I paid for insurance and the bonehead seller didnt buy insurance. I didnt get my money back since I filed the claim with Paypal after 32 days. The ebay complaint center tells you cannot do anything until 30 to 60 days. I waited until the 32nd day and filed all of the necessary complaints and still didnt get my money or the coins. Paypal has a 30 day policy. You must file a complaint within 30 days of the transaction or they cannot do anything.
Sorry to hear about your coins, the USPS is good with claims, they are a bit slow though. It will work out for you in the end. Good luck.
The P.O. cannot make that statement since a clerk of theirs actually accepted the package from the seller. You cannot buy insurance without a clerk accepting the package from the seller and accepting payment for postage and insurance.
I agree with you 110% to send valuable coins registered mail only. Someone will get fired if it turns up missing.
2) Seller sends it to you via insured mail, sig confirmed.
3) Courier makes a delivery attempt, you're not about to sign for an empty package.
4) Seller needs to make the claim, and you get your money in the meantime.
5) Identify the problem. Identify ownership of the problem.
6) Result: Not your problem.
7) You are and should be entitled to your money. End of story.
I've yet to understand why so many will make such a federal case of something that's so cut and dry. I paid, I didn't get my goods. My responsibility is paying, their responsibility is delivering. If they can't deliver responsibly under the service they chose, not my problem. Fix it, whatever the cost and move on. I shouldn't have to wait any undue length of time for compensation either way due to unforeseen circumstances. Period.
If you're 90 days late on your mortgae, the bank will reciprocate with a foreclosure. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't deliver the goods you promised under any delivery method you've chosen, you need to make good to the buyer immediately. I've done it, as everyone else should have to. I filled my claim and received compensation quite some time afterward, without any duress to the buyer.
Welcome to the real world of how transations should be. Of course, this is only how I do business.
Craig
As has been previously stated, if the package was really insured for $675 it must be sent via registered mail.
Ask the seller how much he insured it ofr. With the blue label hte max is $500.
This one could get sticky, so I would protect myself all around so that any time limits don;t run out on you.
Not sure what the small claims court deadlines are, but I can't imagine them being so short that you can;t resort to that within the next few months.
i like the suggestion of meeting the seller at the PO of his choice.
Make it easy on him, so that if he starts renigging, then if you go to court you can easily show how you've gone overboard to accomodate him.
Good Luck!!
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Hang in there and don't let the buffoon work you over. Maybe he should find a different PO with a different company name and start over if his packages keep getting rifled through.
roadrunner
This is NOT ture at all. From the USPS web site:
Insured Mail Provides coverage against loss or damage up to $5,000 for Parcel Post, Bound Printed Matter, and Media Mail matter as well as merchandise mailed at Priority Mail or First-Class Mail rates. Items must not be insured for more than their value. Insured mail must be presented to a retail employee at a post office or to a rural carrier.
However, once you get to about $1000, it's actually cheaper (and more secure) to use Registered Mail.
Hang in there and don't let the buffoon work you over. Maybe he should find a different PO with a different company name and start over if his packages keep getting rifled through.">>
Unless the two parties are close enough for personal delivery, they must out of necessity rely on a third party (usually the USPS) to get the item from one to the other. So it then becomes obligatory on the seller to present the item properly packaged and labelled to the carrier. Buyer should provide a valid and SECURE address to which the item will be delivered. If yer mailman will leave it under Aunt Hattie's rose bushes if yer not at home, then have it sent to someone else that you can trust. If you do a lot of eBaying then get a P.O. box. Frankly if the buyer refused insurance, depending on the item I mite myself insure for at least $100, but wouldn't do business with him again.
Link please. I've always been told that it's the buyers problem regardless.
> First, you don't ship $650+ in gold coins any way other than registered
Assuming that them being gold has nothing to do with it, I've received $600 is coins on many occaissions
where they weren't sent registered. I don't consider it negligent.
The idea of going through the courts is nuts. I've never known the courts to be a quicker solution than any other way.
I'd wait it out.
-KHayse
but
It is a "nickel and dime" difference between insured and registered.
As a seller, it is MY responsiblity to get the mdse to the buyer. I refund and then file with PO.
HOWEVER.....I will NOT do the refund until the buyer has completed all the forms the PO needs. (Just as an incentive to get him to do his end)
I only send insured up to $300 or so.
Using REGISTERED means that every postal employee who touches that package has to SIGN that he has it. Registereds are seldom lost because it is very easy to find out an employee who habitually is the last signer on 756 lost pieces of mail. heh.
The PO does not always make it easy. I had a shipment of 30 circ dollars and sent it INSURED. It was lost. The PO wanted me to PROVE "cost" on each and every coin. I explained that I buy coins in dribs and drabs and have NO idea who sold me what or on what day in the case of bulk type items.
They still refused until I got my congressman to drop em a line. I had pay in a week.
But.....SELLER.....is responsible for refund. And BUYER is responsible to aid seller in making claim.