Status of ICG and ACG?

dan1ecu

Hi, Everybody -

It looks as though the big three (PCGS, NGC and ANACS) are going strong. Does anyone know how ICG and ACG are doing?

Is ACG finally on its way out?

If ICG could find its nitch (like ANACS has with its net grading), then it could probably survive. What do you think of their chances?

Dan

kamehameha00

ACG is in my opinion,dead.Less and less of them are appearing at shows.Theres even less of them appearing on eBay now.I don't know about ICG,but ACG is on its way out this year or next.

kamehameha00

darktone

I think the problem ICG has had is that correctly graded coins in their slabs only bring a fraction of the money they would if they had the same grade in a PCGS/NGC slab so I believe most of the correctly graded coins get cracked out and only the substandard stuff remains. I don't think there is much of a cure for this problem. mike

Shamika

I thought I heard that ACG is no more.

Punscoins

After seeing how overgraded some ACG coins are, I certainly hope they are done for.

Don't have any experience with ICG slabbs though.

foodude

I had this strange dream (nightmare) last night where I some how thought I was buying two PCGs coins and ended up with an AGC and an NTC In the dream (nightmare) I did this at an in-person transaction

Julian

ICG employs the same quality of examiners, as PCGS, NGC, & ANACS.
Additionally, the offer a level of annonymity that none of the other services offer.
None of the services are perfect.
ICG's product is equal to the others.

darktone

Julian, I often hear your opinion of ICG when a dealers selling a coin but when I am trying to sell an ICG coin to a dealer they say they could give me more if it was in a PCGS or NGC holder- makes me want to stay away from ICG. mike

Julian

Mike-
Given that many people do not know how to evaluate their own property, they blindly accept a bill of goods, as expressed by the major services.
It remains CRITICAL that collectors be able to evaluate their material. Encapsulation should only be a secondary consideration.
All of that being said, publicity is what generates brand recognition, and if liquidity is more of a concern, then equal quality items will be easier to liquidate in a better known holder.
I will always maintain that a finer coin, whether in an off brand holder, or not, will realize more than an inferior one in a brand name holder.

K6AZ

The problem with ICG is they are liberal with 65 and above, and anyone in the coin business with any experience knows this. The proof in the pudding is what they bring at auction - and in grades of MS65 and above, they only bring a fraction of what PCGS or NGC coins do.

As far as ACG is concerned, the only people left selling them are Alan Hager himself, and a couple of die-hards on eBay who relist them over and over again because they do not sell when more than about 20% of greysheet is asked for them. The final nail in the coffin of ACG was the Charlotte hearing.

Pushkin

<< <i>As far as ACG is concerned, the only people left selling them are Alan Hager himself, and a couple of die-hards on eBay who relist them over and over again >>



I would venture a guess that one reason for the paucity of ACG slabs is that the coins that were once in them are now mostly in NTC slabs.

BillJones

ACG will never be totally dead because their holders will continue to crop up at coin shows, at least here in Florida, and on Ebay and other parts of the Internet.

ICG is in many way ACG with a green holder. Here's an example. At recent show a dealer had an Indian $2.50 gold coin in an ICG MS-64 holder. He was shopping the coin around to other dealers at $650, which is about half of "bid." There were no takers. Why? The coin actually graded AU-55 and was worth about a third of the asking price.

This is the way that inexperienced collectors get nailed with "bargain purchases." They might buy this item at the "bargain price" of say $850 because all certified coins are the same, right? WRONG. Coins in third world slabbing services are "el cheepo" for a good reason. Th grades on the holders don't mean anything except to people who don't know what they are doing.

Pushkin

The Indian Head cents and Flying Eagle cents that I have seen in ICG slabs were accurately graded, I've only seen about twenty, and they were all on the money or conservatively graded. I can't speak for other series, and most people seem to agree that ICG has major problems.

SEGS, on the other hand, cannot grade IHCs and Flyers - they are just terrible with these series.

joeyuk

At a show this morning I heard a dealer with a case full of icg slabs explain to someone the owner of icg is a past long time grader from pcgs. Can anyone shed light on this ?

airplanenut

<< <i>At a show this morning I heard a dealer with a case full of icg slabs explain to someone the owner of icg is a past long time grader from pcgs. Can anyone shed light on this ? >>

Which show?

291fifth

<< <i>ICG employs the same quality of examiners, as PCGS, NGC, & ANACS.
Additionally, the offer a level of annonymity that none of the other services offer.
None of the services are perfect.
ICG's product is equal to the others. >>



When trying to sell to a dealer ICG, so far as US coins go,and especially for moderns, is the kiss of death. I don't have to wonder about this as I have experienced it first hand.

JrGMan2004

At a show last weekend, I overheard a dealer talking to another... Dealer: "Look at this... bid is $1400 in 65, and $1100 in 64... it's in a 65 holder and I bought it for $1000." I caught a peek... couldn't tell what series it was... looked like a Bust Half or Dollar... and it was in an ACG holder... that just made me want to burst out laughing!!!

joeyuk

The parsippany show Jeremy.

jom

<< <i>When trying to sell to a dealer ICG, so far as US coins go,and especially for moderns, is the kiss of death. I don't have to wonder about this as I have experienced it first hand. >>



That is probably true but it does NOT mean the quality of graders at PCGS or NGC is better than ICG's. What you describe is based more on publicity (ie HYPE) than it is on the quality of grading....

jom

joeyuk

No matter what quality of employees you have people vote with their bucks. The same coin in a pcgs slab an icg, the pcgs onnewill get more money 99/100.

jom

<< <i>The same coin in a pcgs slab an icg, the pcgs onnewill get more money 99/100 >>



Again, that's true but how do you know the hypethetical coin you mention wasn't in an ICG holder at one time at that same grade? You don't....so you can't pass "judgement" on how a company grades just by the prices the coin goes for.

In fact, the "grade" is all relative. If ICG grades a whole grade more liberal than PCGS, why is that bad? As long as you KNOW this before hand you can pay the right price. The way I see any of these new companies start off in a difficult position:

1) If they grade too liberal then they get critisized for being too loose.

2) If they grade too conservative no one will send coins to them.

So what are they to do? And that's not all. The REAL way to judge a grading company is how consistant they are NOT how "tough" they are. This misconception withing the coin market will always be there I guess.

The bottom line is that if you do NOT learn to grade yourself if won't matter a damn what holder your coins is in....

jom

ShoeshineBoy

At the show in Raleigh this weekend, I did not see a single ACG slab. This is a big change from about 2 years ago when I saw more ACG slabs than anything else. I also don't recall seeing many PCI slabs of any color.

For the record, NGC had the most slabs followed by PCGS. ANACS and NTC seemed to be tied for third. There were a few scattered slabs from SEGS and ICG. Interestingly, there were not as many NTC slabs as there have been at the Raleigh shows during the past year. Only a couple dealers had more than a few from NTC. I also saw one dealer with a couple dozen or so moderns in TruGrade slabs. They were all in the dealer's 1/2 price junk box.

joeyuk

I absolutely agree with you jom. I have come full circle. I used to buy any slab because I did not know any better. Then I came here and only looked at pcgs and ngc slabs because I now knew only these coins were any good. Now I have been here a while and have listened to many smart people and seek out lower teir slabs and use my own judgement. These slabs are at sale price. Joe

koynekwest

Learn to grade for yourself. There's lots of properly graded and even a few undergraded coins in ICG and SEGS holders.

joeyuk

That was my point thou it may not have been clear. If you look you can find the same quality coin in a low teir slab for much less money.

DCAMFranklin

I'll gladly follow the hallowed advice of Jom, Julian and Pushkin.

SarasotaFrank

I was selling a Morgan Dollar in an SEGS holder recently. The dealer claimed this was the holder he trusted the least.

If it had been an NTC holder, then on that particular day THAT would have been the holder he would have trusted the least.

He offered 50% of bid for the correctly graded AU50.

dorkkarl

icg is no less inconsistent than pcgs.

K S

mintluster

I use PCGS and ICG on a regular basis and I can honestly say they are both very consistent.
ICG has a lot to offer collectors, they grade things nobody else will (Roman coins I collect).
I love them both and have no complaints.

Shamika

"The REAL way to judge a grading company is how consistant they are NOT how "tough" they are."

ABSOLUTELY!!!

MrEureka

I will always maintain that a finer coin, whether in an off brand holder, or not, will realize more than an inferior one in a brand name holder.

Julian - That's certainly true in the very long run. In the short term, it's a very different story. I'm sure that you understand that.

MrEureka

"The REAL way to judge a grading company is how consistant they are NOT how "tough" they are."

What if they consistently overgrade by several grades?

DCAMFranklin

Plenty of Forum Members selling the ICG coin:

JB Steven

LucyBop

Other Forum members selling quality coins.

Bumperone

northcoin

The noted absence of ACG slabs at recent shows can only mean one thing ----- many of those ACG slabbed coins have been broken out and are now in NGC and PCGS holders as well! Several years ago ACG coins traded freely with the implied understanding that they were two grades higher on the holders than was the coin in the holder. More recently the ACG label has fairly or unfairly itself become such a negative that submitters have found their coins to be more sellable in an NGC or PCGS holder with the lower grade. The coins have not changed but the perception has.

LucyBop

Here is something interesting....

at the Vegas coin show I came across a 54 ms65FBL Franklin in a ACG holder.

There is no doubt in my mind that this coin would have graded the same at PCGs.

I didn't buy it because the price was that of a PCGs holdered coin, had it of been cheaper, I would have picked it up.

K6AZ

Pow! Right in the kisser! Hey Lucy, you sure nailed Dtroll good!

K6AZ

And I see he is still selling that gold label PCI garbage. At least ICG is a respectable service, just a little loose at 65 and above.

davewang202

I still have my ICG Morgan that I don't quite know what to do with.

obverse

Look at the area around the star before "E" and "E" itself.

reverse

The same may be found around the letters on the reverse.

I had sent the coin back to ICG for a review two years ago because I don't think that this coin belongs in a reputable slab. ICG sent it back to me without comment or any note attached. I take it to mean that the "alternations" as seen in the pictures were acceptable in an ICG slab.

I can't honestly sell this coin without noting the surface alteration, but ICG apparently feels differently. Basically I had lost any confidence in ICG because of this coin. If the coin hadn't been worked on, it would've easily been worth the $1000+ that I have in this coin, but in its present state, I'm not sure what I can do with it. One dealer even suggested that I crack it out and have the work "redone" to cover the obvious imperfections. I shook my head and moved on.

Can someone explain to me how a coin such as this is acceptable in an ICG slab? I suppose that I could count my blessings that this coin isn't in an ACG MS66PL holder, but kidding aside, if I cracked it out and resubmitted it to ICG, would it end up in the same ICG MS64 slab? Given the altered surfaces, is there any chance that PCGS/NGC would even consider slabbing such a coin?

I would very much like to hear from those that have dealt with these "California specials" in slabs. (A friend of mine believes that this is a "California special". Whether it is or not, I do not know.) What can I do with this coin? what should I do with this coin?

koynekwest

As far as ACG coins being in NGC and PCGS holders-perhaps not. I would think a raw coin would be worth more than one in an ACG holder. And, the line some dealers give you about a coin being worth X amount of dollars just because it's in a certain company's holder (with the exception of most ACG garbage)-well that's just another way of lowballing the seller. And yet another reason for learning how to "ball-park" grade a coin on your own.

jbsteven

I will SELECTIVELY buy ICG coins when they appear to be properly graded. Buy the coin and NOT the holder.

I even have a NTC coin for sale. Find it if you care to in my store but I won't link it here since that is taboo. Read the description as well.


I purchase correctly graded and undergraded coins in 3rd tier holders when the opportunity arises.

keets

Status of ICG and ACG?

ICG---down.....for the count.....
and.....
ACG---out.....or at least being shown the door.

al h.