Sent the coin to NCS to remove the film. NGC put it in a MS66*. Got greedy and cracked it for PCGS. I might walk it through in Baltimore but then again might not. Still a nice coin. >>
You must of had Jason submit it!!!
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
This sure is a reveiling thread about the underbelly of the hobby.
If the coin itself is what makes the value then people should gladly pay the same for a pcgs 64 as an ngc 66 star, right ???
I have always been skeptical of the morgan dollar color crazies that pay for pretty color on the commonest classic coin in U.S. Numinsmatics.
I know, it's worth what ever a willing buyer is willing to pay, I've heard it all before. Sure, I regret not buying bag toned morgans years ago, but I sure wouldn't buy em already slabbed, I'd rather do what Russ did !!!
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
I actually found a real nice one in an ICG slab. Not a monster, and the picture doesn't represent the true color (the dark in front of Liberty is actually a very pleasant "electric blue")....but I'll tell you what...cleanest cheek I've ever seen on a 63 Morgan. I think ICG did a pretty good job grading this one.
<< <i>If the coin itself is what makes the value then people should gladly pay the same for a pcgs 64 as an ngc 66 star, right ??? >>
Les,
If it were still in the NGC Star holder it would be worth substantially more than in the PCGS MS64 holder.
When the coin was listed at auction, I PMed one of the forum members, (wasn't TBT), and suggested he buy it because I figured it would go MS66 at NGC. I was right.
I find it astounding that anyone would crack an 1882-O in NGC MS66*. Try to get it to cross in the holder, maybe, but crack and submit? Maybe "crack" is the operative word
<< <i>I find it astounding that anyone would crack an 1882-O in NGC MS66*. Try to get it to cross in the holder, maybe, but crack and submit? Maybe "crack" is the operative word >>
So you are saying you will pay 66 money for a 64 graded rare grade in the Barber series?
i think what Les said is If the coin itself is what makes the value then people should gladly pay the same for a pcgs 64 as an ngc 66 star, right ??? his point is clear since the same coin has apparently been in several companies different grade holders and it's value has been determined not by the coin but by the insert number and the company logo. you'd have to be really daft to miss that point. he's quite simply alluding to the fact that the plastic and the number have been what's bought, not the coin. as much as it irks me to say so, apparently the only real coin collector in this whole thing has been the esteemed Kennedy Expert, Russ!!!! he bought a raw coin based on his knowledge of grading coins, while everybody else seems to be basing purchases on knowledge of reading pop reports and GreySheets.
this thread should stand at the top of page one for all newcomers to read.
And just for a moment consider what this one coin does to pop reports. It exists as at least three coins on PCGS/NGC's pop reports--in three different grades. That's this one coin.
Imagine how skewed and inflated numbers are for coins on the pop reports in general.
<< <i>If the coin itself is what makes the value then people should gladly pay the same for a pcgs 64 as an ngc 66 star, right >>
Ok, I understand this statement however I REALLY doubt you could get over $5000 for this coin in a PCGS ms64 holder. I believe it would be MUCH easier to sell this coin in a NGC ms66* star holder.
How much would this coin sell for in a ms64 PCGS holder?
How much would this coin sell for in a NGC ms66* holder?
My guess is that it would be easier to get more money for this coin in the NGC ms66* holder.
I feel your pain TBT. I am however curious about one thing. Do you think perhaps that the removal of the film by NCS was the reason it did not go back in a 65 holder at PCGS? Either they saw some evidence of that removal and didnt like it or they were not consistent with their grading of this particular coin. The latter part is what irks me, especially with the 10 pt grading system. If you have a coin which is a 64 one day and a 65 the next, it seems to me the 10 pt grading system is the problem. Maybe we should discuss that on a different thread.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
I will not name names here because I'd rather the owner of the coin do so if he wishes, but to answer your question if I'd pay 66 money for a 64 graded coin, the ansewr is yes if the coin in the holder is worth the $$$ because of the value of the contents, not just the grade on the holder. I recently offered somewhere between 65-66 type date money for an ngc 64* barber half that met my standards for eye appeal as well as technical surface being undergraded by 1 point i.m.o. and was turned down flat. Russ got a great buy on this coin with a good eye, but their is no way that coin is worth 5 K outside of the right graded holder, the Barber half I saw graded 64* is in my opionion worth more then the Morgan in question in or out of the holder.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
you missed his point entirely. Les isn't saying that someone would pay $5000 for the coin in an MS64 holder of either company. what he's saying is that it's the same coin in either holder and a dealer or a collector would pay $5000 for it or $250 for it based on the insert and not the coin. in essence, buying the plastic, happens all the time. with re-submission for a large payday of a one point jumpan ever present possibility, the coin gets overlooked as a commodity, essentially what was part of the hope when grading services began to become popular------ease trading sight unseen.
the real point, the important point over looked and made by Clankeye, is how this all skews the pop reports into meaningless drivel. the irony is that dealers crack and resubmit and then at least partially base their buying and selling prices on pop reports or price sheets that are based at least in part on pop reports. the whole thing is maddening!!!!
in this instance, we have a PCGS MS65, NGC MS66*, PCGS MS64 and who knows whatever else for one coin. multiply that by XXXXXX coins during the course of a 15 year period and you might shake your head a bit.
I am still in the firm belief this coin would sell to a collector or dealer for more money in the 66* holder.
I can say this for sure: I crack out coins and send the inserts in so the pops can be changed. I know of many dealers that do this. I think collectors and people who rarely submit coins in general are less likely to return inserts which in turn messes up the pops.
If NCS didn't mess up the coin with what they did then anyone that buys this coin and submitts it to ngc raw is looking at a possible 3 K profit payday for a 1500 dollar totatal investment. Trouble is, only the right holder will due.
TBT, I am curious why you don't c-r-ac-k it out 1 more time & resubmit to ngc considering the potential pay day involved, or have you already tried ?
I wish you the best what ever you decide.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
Now I've been thinking about a few things. And part of this has nothing to do with this thread. In fact I was going to start one a while back but didn't know if it would receive any discussion.
Every day on the board folks are showing images, talking about cracking and re-submitting. Sometimes they can be talking about white coins, sometimes toned. Also, some will talk of questionable toned coins for AT.
Here is my question.... How many graders from these company's read the boards, and do you feel it can influence their grading if they recognize these coins?
OK, granted on white coins it would be tough to recognize it coming through the assembly line. But a toned coin with unique color might draw their attention. I also understand they see so many coins each day, and the chances might be slim they see a coin that was posted. But maybe not, I understand not too many graders are actually on board.
I know one grader that reads these boards. I'm not saying this person would be influenced in a decision, or would they?
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
This is a perfect example of why I don't trust NGC Morgans that are graded 66 or above, and this shows in the marketplace. Just look at any dealer's inventory such as Heritage or DLRC, and you will see their asking price between NGC and PCGS 66 Morgans are very different, in many cases hundreds of dollars.
Don't get me wrong, this is a nice coin, but you seriously blew it cracking it out of the 65 PCGS holder. You will not get what you are asking for it in a 64 holder, and since you had it "conserved" I would be surprised if PCGS would put it back in a 65 holder.
<< <i> know one grader that reads these boards. >>
Seriously? A full time grader? I would think these forums would be the last place they might want to spend any quality time away from work.
And I don't mean that as a diss on the forum. I just can't imagine with the long days they put in looking at coin after coin after coin, that they could stand to then spend time reading about... coins.
As to graders recognizing certain coins just from mulitple submissions--that I think could very well happen. I find myself recognizing coins at shows that I have seen over and over again. I find myself recognizing coins on eBay that I used to own. Coins stick in the mind, and if a standout one is being submitted over and over again in a short time frame--I would think it very possible they have it's number.
TBT - PCGS would not have holdered that coin in the first place if there was anything on the coin that had to be removed. The fact is you gambled, cracked it out of the holder, sent it to NCS to spruce it up, then got it in a NGC supergrade holder. I would assume it was realized that the market these days significantly discounts NGC supergrades, and the coin went back to PCGS who detected the "conservation" and bumped it down a grade.
You admitted early on in this thread you were greedy. Why can't you just work on the 20% or so margin most sellers operate on? Why do you have to try to double or triple your money on every coin? As long as you do this, you will end up taking serious hits when you play the crackout game.
<< <i>Ask anyone that deals with toners if TBT does not pay very strong monies for coins. I have no issues stepping up to the plate on a nice coin. If you don’t agree that fine with me, but it does not give you the right to make baseless accusations. Your comments are not questioning the market or your personal feelings about the prices of toners, they are attacking me and my company without merit or knowledge. >>
TBT, here is some news for you. I have been to many major shows. I simply don't announce the fact that I go to these shows for several reasons.
Sure, you may pay strong money for toned coins, but in my opinion you still have a lot to learn about the toned Morgan market. It was less than two years ago that you came here while you were selling blatant AT'ed ACG Morgans and had to be convinced they were AT.
That 82-O is not a banded rainbow, it is a coin with nice pretty obverse toning. You are asking banded rainbow money for it. I (and your buyers) can not help the fact that you paid banded rainbow money for it.
For the man in the peanut gallery, suggest you just watch this one and not jump in.
Why do you have to try to double or triple your money on every coin? As long as you do this, you will end up taking serious hits when you play the crackout game.
If you're out to make money, why NOT try. I mean, he admitted he tried, and failed, now he's done with it. Can hardly fault a guy for that. At least it doesnt have a description that says "guranteed to go into a 66 holder and be worth triple what I'm now asking for it" He's not lying or stealing.
I am sorry if anything I said led to a flame war, it was not my intention to do so.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
Comments
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
<< <i>Win some an lose some.
Sent the coin to NCS to remove the film. NGC put it in a MS66*. Got greedy and cracked it for PCGS. I might walk it through in Baltimore but then again might not. Still a nice coin. >>
You must of had Jason submit it!!!
what a swing that coin has. ms64 $60, ms65 $700 and ms66 $5000
If the coin itself is what makes the value then people should gladly pay the same for a pcgs 64 as an ngc 66 star, right ???
I have always been skeptical of the morgan dollar color crazies that pay for pretty color on the commonest classic coin in U.S. Numinsmatics.
I know, it's worth what ever a willing buyer is willing to pay, I've heard it all before. Sure, I regret not buying bag toned morgans years ago, but I sure wouldn't buy em already slabbed, I'd rather do what Russ did !!!
Les
<< <i>If the coin itself is what makes the value then people should gladly pay the same for a pcgs 64 as an ngc 66 star, right ??? >>
Les,
If it were still in the NGC Star holder it would be worth substantially more than in the PCGS MS64 holder.
When the coin was listed at auction, I PMed one of the forum members, (wasn't TBT), and suggested he buy it because I figured it would go MS66 at NGC. I was right.
Russ, NCNE
wow, there has been a lot of "value" added since then
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>If the coin itself is what makes the value then people should gladly pay the same for a pcgs 64 as an ngc 66 star, right ??? >>
Les
So you are saying you will pay 66 money for a 64 graded rare grade in the Barber series?
the 1882 o in ms66 is a hard coin to find. Greysheet is around $5000 for that date/grade
<< <i>The colors are what got into the 66. The coin is a nice MS65 >>
TBT,
Almost word for word what I told the forum member. Solid MS65 with a color bump at NGC.
Russ, NCNE
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I find it astounding that anyone would crack an 1882-O in NGC MS66*. Try to get it to cross in the holder, maybe, but crack and submit? Maybe "crack" is the operative word >>
let the piling on begin!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Look at the major issues it has in one of the focal areas on the reverse!!!
TBT, why did you crack it out???? That is worse than me cracking out my 1881 AU55 2.5$ to get it into a 58!!
V.r,
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>Customer wanted it in a PCGS MS65 holder. >>
You mean like this?
Sorry, couldn't resist!
Russ, NCNE
i think what Les said is If the coin itself is what makes the value then people should gladly pay the same for a pcgs 64 as an ngc 66 star, right ??? his point is clear since the same coin has apparently been in several companies different grade holders and it's value has been determined not by the coin but by the insert number and the company logo. you'd have to be really daft to miss that point. he's quite simply alluding to the fact that the plastic and the number have been what's bought, not the coin. as much as it irks me to say so, apparently the only real coin collector in this whole thing has been the esteemed Kennedy Expert, Russ!!!! he bought a raw coin based on his knowledge of grading coins, while everybody else seems to be basing purchases on knowledge of reading pop reports and GreySheets.
this thread should stand at the top of page one for all newcomers to read.
al h.
<< <i> on knowledge of reading pop reports >>
And just for a moment consider what this one coin does to pop reports. It exists as at least three coins on PCGS/NGC's pop reports--in three different grades. That's this one coin.
Imagine how skewed and inflated numbers are for coins on the pop reports in general.
Clankeye
You Nailed it!!!!!!!!!!!
Amen
<< <i>If the coin itself is what makes the value then people should gladly pay the same for a pcgs 64 as an ngc 66 star, right >>
Ok, I understand this statement however I REALLY doubt you could get over $5000 for this coin in a PCGS ms64 holder. I believe it would be MUCH easier to sell this coin in a NGC ms66* star holder.
How much would this coin sell for in a ms64 PCGS holder?
How much would this coin sell for in a NGC ms66* holder?
My guess is that it would be easier to get more money for this coin in the NGC ms66* holder.
Why did it go to NCS for haze?
Yes, Keets nailed my thoughts exactly.
JPStevens,
I will not name names here because I'd rather the owner of the coin do so if he wishes, but to answer your question if I'd pay 66 money for a 64 graded coin, the ansewr is yes if the coin in the holder is worth the $$$ because of the value of the contents, not just the grade on the holder. I recently offered somewhere between 65-66 type date money for an ngc 64* barber half that met my standards for eye appeal as well as technical surface being undergraded by 1 point i.m.o. and was turned down flat. Russ got a great buy on this coin with a good eye, but their is no way that coin is worth 5 K outside of the right graded holder, the Barber half I saw graded 64* is in my opionion worth more then the Morgan in question in or out of the holder.
Les
you missed his point entirely. Les isn't saying that someone would pay $5000 for the coin in an MS64 holder of either company. what he's saying is that it's the same coin in either holder and a dealer or a collector would pay $5000 for it or $250 for it based on the insert and not the coin. in essence, buying the plastic, happens all the time. with re-submission for a large payday of a one point jumpan ever present possibility, the coin gets overlooked as a commodity, essentially what was part of the hope when grading services began to become popular------ease trading sight unseen.
the real point, the important point over looked and made by Clankeye, is how this all skews the pop reports into meaningless drivel. the irony is that dealers crack and resubmit and then at least partially base their buying and selling prices on pop reports or price sheets that are based at least in part on pop reports. the whole thing is maddening!!!!
in this instance, we have a PCGS MS65, NGC MS66*, PCGS MS64 and who knows whatever else for one coin. multiply that by XXXXXX coins during the course of a 15 year period and you might shake your head a bit.
al h.
I hear ya.
I am still in the firm belief this coin would sell to a collector or dealer for more money in the 66* holder.
I can say this for sure: I crack out coins and send the inserts in so the pops can be changed. I know of many dealers that do this. I think collectors and people who rarely submit coins in general are less likely to return inserts which in turn messes up the pops.
TBT, I am curious why you don't c-r-ac-k it out 1 more time & resubmit to ngc considering the potential pay day involved, or have you already tried ?
I wish you the best what ever you decide.
Les
Every day on the board folks are showing images, talking about cracking and re-submitting. Sometimes they can be talking about white coins, sometimes toned. Also, some will talk of questionable toned coins for AT.
Here is my question.... How many graders from these company's read the boards, and do you feel it can influence their grading if they recognize these coins?
OK, granted on white coins it would be tough to recognize it coming through the assembly line. But a toned coin with unique color might draw their attention. I also understand they see so many coins each day, and the chances might be slim they see a coin that was posted. But maybe not, I understand not too many graders are actually on board.
I know one grader that reads these boards. I'm not saying this person would be influenced in a decision, or would they?
Don't get me wrong, this is a nice coin, but you seriously blew it cracking it out of the 65 PCGS holder. You will not get what you are asking for it in a 64 holder, and since you had it "conserved" I would be surprised if PCGS would put it back in a 65 holder.
<< <i> know one grader that reads these boards. >>
Seriously? A full time grader? I would think these forums would be the last place they might want to spend any quality time away from work.
And I don't mean that as a diss on the forum. I just can't imagine with the long days they put in looking at coin after coin after coin, that they could stand to then spend time reading about... coins.
As to graders recognizing certain coins just from mulitple submissions--that I think could very well happen. I find myself recognizing coins at shows that I have seen over and over again. I find myself recognizing coins on eBay that I used to own. Coins stick in the mind, and if a standout one is being submitted over and over again in a short time frame--I would think it very possible they have it's number.
Clankeye
<< <i>know one grader that reads these boards >>
Did I mention how much I love PCGS and the deep admiration and respect I feel for those who grade coins?
Russ, NCNE
You admitted early on in this thread you were greedy. Why can't you just work on the 20% or so margin most sellers operate on? Why do you have to try to double or triple your money on every coin? As long as you do this, you will end up taking serious hits when you play the crackout game.
this should be good.
So please tell me, how is trying to get that coin in a 66 holder not trying to double or triple your money?
<< <i>Ask anyone that deals with toners if TBT does not pay very strong monies for coins. I have no issues stepping up to the plate on a nice coin. If you don’t agree that fine with me, but it does not give you the right to make baseless accusations. Your comments are not questioning the market or your personal feelings about the prices of toners, they are attacking me and my company without merit or knowledge. >>
TBT, here is some news for you. I have been to many major shows. I simply don't announce the fact that I go to these shows for several reasons.
Sure, you may pay strong money for toned coins, but in my opinion you still have a lot to learn about the toned Morgan market. It was less than two years ago that you came here while you were selling blatant AT'ed ACG Morgans and had to be convinced they were AT.
That 82-O is not a banded rainbow, it is a coin with nice pretty obverse toning. You are asking banded rainbow money for it. I (and your buyers) can not help the fact that you paid banded rainbow money for it.
For the man in the peanut gallery, suggest you just watch this one and not jump in.
If you're out to make money, why NOT try. I mean, he admitted he tried, and failed, now he's done with it. Can hardly fault a guy for that. At least it doesnt have a description that says "guranteed to go into a 66 holder and be worth triple what I'm now asking for it" He's not lying or stealing.
Why do 'underbelly' and TBT keep coming up in the same thread?
Sorry guys, I spend a lot of time on the open forum.
GSAGUY
Despite what you hear on the street, Bryan's a good guy.
I am sorry if anything I said led to a flame war, it was not my intention to do so.
Les