In my opinion, that coin is not worth the money being asked for it. Because you have X amount of dollars in it does not make it worth that much.
The bottom line in this whole mess is you played the crackout game and lost. Personally, I don't play the crackout game unless the coins are in holders that I know will devalue the coin, such as ICG or ANACS. Most of my toners I have made by buying raw.
As far as shows, as I said earlier, I don't announce my presence. No offense to any one, but one of the biggest reasons are tag-alongs.
Eric - you really have groupies, or are you worried about a hit man financed from Florida?
On the subject of margins, think of the crack-out artists like daytraders of stocks. They take big gambles and sometimes lose big, so when they win, they have to win big
Yes, in the past I have had groupies. I can grade raw Morgans with the best of them, and I don't like having somebody following me around to ask why I bought or didn't buy a certain raw Morgan. It happened in Charlotte, and it was annoying.
<< <i>Exactly what are you trying to imply Frank? >>
that perhaps you have a giant ego?
as an outsider of sorts, I find the statement - "I don't announce my presence at shows because I don't want hangers on" to be downright amusing. Not to mention pompous and arrogant.
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
IMO, there is nothing wrong with making as much money as you can off of a coin.
Are you telling me Eric that if you ripped a coin at 20% under grey that you thought was undergraded in an ICG holder, got it upgraded at PCGS, that you would only ask your typical x% markup?
I'm not flaming anyone here, I said from the very beginning that I thought it was a bad idea for cracking the coin out, but why are you so upset with TBT? I feel like he has taken enough lumps by the lost money/opportunity cost.
My accuracy rate in grading raw Morgans is over 90%. That is not an ego, it is a fact. Many people who know me know this. Just ask any of the dozens of people who bought my raw coins on the BST board last year and then submitted them to PCGS or NGC.
Learn of what and who you speak before you open your mouth.
<< <i>IMO, there is nothing wrong with making as much money as you can off of a coin.
Are you telling me Eric that if you ripped a coin at 20% under grey that you thought was undergraded in an ICG holder, got it upgraded at PCGS, that you would only ask your typical x% markup?
I'm not flaming anyone here, I said from the very beginning that I thought it was a bad idea for cracking the coin out, but why are you so upset with TBT? I feel like he has taken enough lumps by the lost money/opportunity cost.
V.r, John >>
First of all, I don't "rip" coins, and don't look to. I pay fair prices according to the grade, and I don't think I have ever paid 20% back of bid for an ICG coin.
Why am I upset with TBT? I'm not really upset, but I don't agree with a lot of what he is doing. That's all.
You dont look to 'rip' coins? Ok, I can buy that but say that you are offered a PCGS 1895-O Morgan in a 62 holder that you are sure (90% by your own mouth) will 63. The spread is something like 7000$. You wouldnt crack that coin out and try for a 63?
It would almost seem silly not to.
I am not talking about taking advantage of anyone, just getting the coin in the holder that it belongs according to you.
<< <i>You dont look to 'rip' coins? Ok, I can buy that but say that you are offered a PCGS 1895-O Morgan in a 62 holder that you are sure (90% by your own mouth) will 63. The spread is something like 7000$. You wouldnt crack that coin out and try for a 63?
It would almost seem silly not to.
I am not talking about taking advantage of anyone, just getting the coin in the holder that it belongs according to you.
vr, LT >>
No, I don't look to rip coins. Some people are crackout artists, I'm not one of them. And I wouldn't crack a 95-O.
<< <i>Learn of what and who you speak before you open your mouth. >>
I am sure you are a great grader - far better than me, that's for sure.
"of what and who I speak"? You may be a great grader, but truth be known, personally you are nothing to me - just another pompous blowhard who grades coins better than I do. That doesn't grant you any level of respect or reverance in my humble opinion.
so save it for someone who gives a flip
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
And you are a nobody to me. So that makes us even. So why did you pop up with that insult in the first place? I know why, but I'm not going there. It is pointless with you.
Hey Eric - Please call me when you are ready to sell your collection of PQ, upgradable slabbed coins that you've never cracked. If they are as undergraded as you say, and never cracked, I'll be glad to pay a reasonable markup over the current slabbed grade. Heck, I might even give you more than your "fair share" markup of 20%.
Tom
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
Not everyone plays the crackout game. I don't, I have never cracked a PCGS slab. Just because you do, and try to max out every coin you have, does not mean everyone else does it.
Yes, in the past I have had groupies. I can grade raw Morgans with the best of them, and I don't like having somebody following me around to ask why I bought or didn't buy a certain raw Morgan. It happened in Charlotte, and it was annoying.
Eric,
While I do not doubt your proficiency at grading Morgans, your lack of tact is pretty unbelievable.
Perhaps you should adopt a disguise the next time you're on the bourse floor? Maybe a pair of sunglasses and a cowboy hat? Something discrete.
<< <i>Yes, in the past I have had groupies. I can grade raw Morgans with the best of them, and I don't like having somebody following me around to ask why I bought or didn't buy a certain raw Morgan. It happened in Charlotte, and it was annoying.
Eric,
While I do not doubt your proficiency at grading Morgans, your lack of tact is pretty unbelievable.
Perhaps you should adopt a disguise the next time you're on the bourse floor? Maybe a pair of sunglasses and a cowboy hat? Something discrete.
>>
Nah, I just don't announce which shows I am going to.
And as I initially stated, there are more reasons than just the tag-alongs and shadows.
2.5 months of cash flow tied up and $225 added to the cost. In a 64 holder its worth $1300 to $1500.....in a 65 it might reach $1800. Better to move the coin and put the monies in something else. I feel it will end up in a PCGS MS65 holder and I might even try it at the next show. TBT >>
is anyone else not "getting" the math here?
plain old morgan, solidly graded, greysheet - 60 bucks for choice 64, 600 bucks for gem 65.
64 "monster toned" worth 23x bid.
65 "monster toned" worth "might reach" 3x bid.
I am definitely missing something here.
how can a coin worth 900% more than another without monster toning all of a sudden be worth "maybe" 25% more when they both have the toning? Is the 64 suddenly that much better, or the 65 suddenly that much worse?
on top of all that, BLUESHEET on an 82-o in NGC slab is $2,500+ (and we all know bluesheet means properly graded or not, but with the * one would expect a decent coin for grade, if not a premium above sheet.)
so, clearly, Bryan should be COMMENDED for not selling it sight unseen for way more than it was worth, and getting it into a more appropriately numbered slab.
although, i wonder why he would pay another hundred dollar walk through fee for a chance that the price "might reach" $1800.
very, very confusing, but interesting, all the same, (and illustrative, perhaps, as to why many mainstream coin dealers seem to just not bother with the whole "monster rainbow toning" thing).
all in all i guess it just doesn't make a whole bunch of sense to me.
Zenny, you make a lot of good points, and perhaps we can turn this thread around into something that is truly constructive.
Now I am not going to pretend to read Bryan's mind, and why he broke it out of the NGC holder. The fact is the market discounts NGC 66 and above coins sight unseen, and no matter how you want to cut it, selling a coin on eBay is sight unseen, due to the fact that you can not get a totally accurate idea of what a coin looks like by an image. If it were me, I would have sold the coin in the NGC 66 holder for what I felt it was worth.
Now a lot of people know that PCGS toned Morgans bring the most money, and in many cases, a PCGS MS65 toned coin will bring more than one in NGC MS66. I don't know what Bryan's motives were here, but I can safely assume he felt it would sell faster in a PCGS 65 slab. The only problem is a lot of the work NCS does is in fact detectable to experts, and that could be why they knocked it down a point.
At this point, if I had the coin, I would send it back to NGC and try to get a 65* out of it, which is what I think it should get, and try to get out of it breaking even.
i'll help push to 100!! this thread seems to have deteriorated into one of the typical long-winded rant threads with sometimes confusing and contradictory replies. i rather like zenny's math and would wonder why the lower-graded-monster-toner would have the higher premium attached to it. but, i would never question the experts!!
it's also alarming, to me at least, to consider groupies at a coin show. i always announce that i'll be at certain shows and even let members know what hat i'll have on. maybe i'll go the sunglass and cowboy hat route at the next biggeeee and mess everybody up.
Keets, what I've seen and experienced in the market the lower grade toners will indeed trade for many more times sheet than the higher grades. If this is what you folks were referring to. Now the very unique (and rare) high grade toners will still trade at big multiples of sheet. There just isn't that many around that come up for sale. When they do.... there is usually a buyer ready for it.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
So keets, do you do shows behind a table or on foot? Big difference. Like I said, I have many reasons for not announcing which shows I do. Since you are now working for a dealer in Florida, I am sure you are aware of that.
The only thing special about that Morgan is the color and the color is worth X many dollars. It doesn't matter what the grade on the plastic is, unless it were PCGS 66 or NGC 67, in which case the insert would be worth some additional money to the right buyer.
Throwing out numbers like 23X bid for a 64 or 3 times bid for a 65 is just muddying the water. Bid has nothing to do with this coin or any coin like it.
TDN is right ... throw your bid sheets away. Remember, a thing is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. And there are plenty of people willing to pay more than bid for a beautiful rainbow-toned Morgan, especially a somewhat better date. Heck, an 1882-S in an NGC MS66 holder fetched $2400 hammer price at Superior pre-Long Beach.
In this case, TBT had a customer who was only willing to buy rainbow-toned PCGS Morgans grading 65 or higher on the insert. The customer had his own reasons for imposing those restrictions, which probably relate to the his assessment of marketability of the coin on resale someday. The customer probably understands "buy the coin, not the holder" but also has to factor the reality of the marketplace into his decisions. At any rate, TBT PROMISED HIS CUSTOMER first shot at the coin. So TBT did a VERY HONORABLE THING by not taking the NGC MS66* and running with it to auction. Instead, he made a valiant effort to get the coin back into a PCGS MS65 holder to make good on his promise to give his customer first shot.
Further, TBT could have resold the coin in the original PCGS MS65 holder at a profit. But he felt strongly that the coin itself (not the holder) needed the conservation to bring out its natural beauty. In this case, "conservation" was film removal, not dipping to remove toning or metal oxides. Film removal merely removes a FOREIGN substance and should not be objectionable. The coin would have brought more money in an NGC MS66* at a major public auction, no doubt about it. But TBT was going for the immediate sale to his established customer.
By the way, NGC will never put it back into the 66* holder. I believe they give an extra bump to coins coming through NCS to promote their lucrative conservation service. I remember when a dealer took my 1877 gold proof set, and sent all the coins through NCS. The original beautiful toning was stripped away, along with the history and the pedigrees. Three of the coins upgraded, netting the dealer a $100,000+ profit. Those upgrades would never have been given to me on an ordinary resubmission. And I would never have sent those coins to NCS to strip away their toning and turn them into lobotomized de-historicized shiny new widgets. So, I missed out on the $100,000 bump. Anyway, that was another story ... in this case, it sounds like the conservation was appropriate and needed. Nothing wrong with that.
K6AZ strongly implies that a toned coin in a PCGS65 will often bring more than the same coin in an NGC66 holder. My experience is that this is not accurate. In fact, my impression is that at auction an NGC65* coin will bring as much if not more than the same coin in a PCGS65 holder.
Comments
al h.
In my opinion, that coin is not worth the money being asked for it. Because you have X amount of dollars in it does not make it worth that much.
The bottom line in this whole mess is you played the crackout game and lost. Personally, I don't play the crackout game unless the coins are in holders that I know will devalue the coin, such as ICG or ANACS. Most of my toners I have made by buying raw.
As far as shows, as I said earlier, I don't announce my presence. No offense to any one, but one of the biggest reasons are tag-alongs.
<< <i> but one of the biggest reasons are tag-alongs. >>
THAT was pretty damn funny
<< <i>What was funny about it? I don't like people following me around at shows, and that is why I go to them unannounced. >>
I guess I just don't recognize the celebrity factor.
Eric - you really have groupies, or are you worried about a hit man financed from Florida?
On the subject of margins, think of the crack-out artists like daytraders of stocks. They take big gambles and sometimes lose big, so when they win, they have to win big
<< <i>Eric - you really have groupies >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Eric - you really have groupies >>
glad someone else found it funny.
maybe he ought to dispense with the vanity plate - "Himself"
<< <i>Exactly what are you trying to imply Frank? >>
that perhaps you have a giant ego?
as an outsider of sorts, I find the statement - "I don't announce my presence at shows because I don't want hangers on" to be downright amusing. Not to mention pompous and arrogant.
Are you telling me Eric that if you ripped a coin at 20% under grey that you thought was undergraded in an ICG holder, got it upgraded at PCGS, that you would only ask your typical x% markup?
I'm not flaming anyone here, I said from the very beginning that I thought it was a bad idea for cracking the coin out, but why are you so upset with TBT? I feel like he has taken enough lumps by the lost money/opportunity cost.
V.r,
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
My accuracy rate in grading raw Morgans is over 90%. That is not an ego, it is a fact. Many people who know me know this. Just ask any of the dozens of people who bought my raw coins on the BST board last year and then submitted them to PCGS or NGC.
Learn of what and who you speak before you open your mouth.
<< <i>IMO, there is nothing wrong with making as much money as you can off of a coin.
Are you telling me Eric that if you ripped a coin at 20% under grey that you thought was undergraded in an ICG holder, got it upgraded at PCGS, that you would only ask your typical x% markup?
I'm not flaming anyone here, I said from the very beginning that I thought it was a bad idea for cracking the coin out, but why are you so upset with TBT? I feel like he has taken enough lumps by the lost money/opportunity cost.
V.r,
John >>
First of all, I don't "rip" coins, and don't look to. I pay fair prices according to the grade, and I don't think I have ever paid 20% back of bid for an ICG coin.
Why am I upset with TBT? I'm not really upset, but I don't agree with a lot of what he is doing. That's all.
It would almost seem silly not to.
I am not talking about taking advantage of anyone, just getting the coin in the holder that it belongs according to you.
vr,
LT
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>You dont look to 'rip' coins? Ok, I can buy that but say that you are offered a PCGS 1895-O Morgan in a 62 holder that you are sure (90% by your own mouth) will 63. The spread is something like 7000$. You wouldnt crack that coin out and try for a 63?
It would almost seem silly not to.
I am not talking about taking advantage of anyone, just getting the coin in the holder that it belongs according to you.
vr,
LT >>
No, I don't look to rip coins. Some people are crackout artists, I'm not one of them. And I wouldn't crack a 95-O.
<< <i>Learn of what and who you speak before you open your mouth. >>
I am sure you are a great grader - far better than me, that's for sure.
"of what and who I speak"? You may be a great grader, but truth be known, personally you are nothing to me - just another pompous blowhard who grades coins better than I do. That doesn't grant you any level of respect or reverance in my humble opinion.
so save it for someone who gives a flip
HEY TBT, Who you callin Crazy ???
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
Not everyone plays the crackout game. I don't, I have never cracked a PCGS slab. Just because you do, and try to max out every coin you have, does not mean everyone else does it.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
Eric,
While I do not doubt your proficiency at grading Morgans, your lack of tact is pretty unbelievable.
Perhaps you should adopt a disguise the next time you're on the bourse floor? Maybe a pair of sunglasses and a cowboy hat? Something discrete.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Yes, in the past I have had groupies. I can grade raw Morgans with the best of them, and I don't like having somebody following me around to ask why I bought or didn't buy a certain raw Morgan. It happened in Charlotte, and it was annoying.
Eric,
While I do not doubt your proficiency at grading Morgans, your lack of tact is pretty unbelievable.
Perhaps you should adopt a disguise the next time you're on the bourse floor? Maybe a pair of sunglasses and a cowboy hat? Something discrete.
Nah, I just don't announce which shows I am going to.
And as I initially stated, there are more reasons than just the tag-alongs and shadows.
<< <i> ...
2.5 months of cash flow tied up and $225 added to the cost. In a 64 holder its worth $1300 to $1500.....in a 65 it might reach $1800. Better to move the coin and put the monies in something else. I feel it will end up in a PCGS MS65 holder and I might even try it at the next show. TBT >>
is anyone else not "getting" the math here?
plain old morgan, solidly graded, greysheet - 60 bucks for choice 64, 600 bucks for gem 65.
64 "monster toned" worth 23x bid.
65 "monster toned" worth "might reach" 3x bid.
I am definitely missing something here.
how can a coin worth 900% more than another without monster toning all of a sudden be worth "maybe" 25% more when they both have the toning? Is the 64 suddenly that much better, or the 65 suddenly that much worse?
on top of all that, BLUESHEET on an 82-o in NGC slab is $2,500+ (and we all know bluesheet means properly graded or not, but with the * one would expect a decent coin for grade, if not a premium above sheet.)
so, clearly, Bryan should be COMMENDED for not selling it sight unseen for way more than it was worth, and getting it into a more appropriately numbered slab.
although, i wonder why he would pay another hundred dollar walk through fee for a chance that the price "might reach" $1800.
very, very confusing, but interesting, all the same, (and illustrative, perhaps, as to why many mainstream coin dealers seem to just not bother with the whole "monster rainbow toning" thing).
all in all i guess it just doesn't make a whole bunch of sense to me.
z
ps. it does look about right in a 64 slab to me.
Now I am not going to pretend to read Bryan's mind, and why he broke it out of the NGC holder. The fact is the market discounts NGC 66 and above coins sight unseen, and no matter how you want to cut it, selling a coin on eBay is sight unseen, due to the fact that you can not get a totally accurate idea of what a coin looks like by an image. If it were me, I would have sold the coin in the NGC 66 holder for what I felt it was worth.
Now a lot of people know that PCGS toned Morgans bring the most money, and in many cases, a PCGS MS65 toned coin will bring more than one in NGC MS66. I don't know what Bryan's motives were here, but I can safely assume he felt it would sell faster in a PCGS 65 slab. The only problem is a lot of the work NCS does is in fact detectable to experts, and that could be why they knocked it down a point.
At this point, if I had the coin, I would send it back to NGC and try to get a 65* out of it, which is what I think it should get, and try to get out of it breaking even.
<< <i>..The fact is the market discounts NGC 66 and above coins sight unseen... >>
and, in fact, bluesheet has ngc at a 10% discount of pcgs price on this coin at 66.
i'll help push to 100!! this thread seems to have deteriorated into one of the typical long-winded rant threads with sometimes confusing and contradictory replies. i rather like zenny's math and would wonder why the lower-graded-monster-toner would have the higher premium attached to it. but, i would never question the experts!!
it's also alarming, to me at least, to consider groupies at a coin show. i always announce that i'll be at certain shows and even let members know what hat i'll have on. maybe i'll go the sunglass and cowboy hat route at the next biggeeee and mess everybody up.
al h.
<< <i>it's also alarming, to me at least, to consider groupies at a coin show. >>
Keets, they're called stalkers
Throwing out numbers like 23X bid for a 64 or 3 times bid for a 65 is just muddying the water. Bid has nothing to do with this coin or any coin like it.
hey Eric
you have evidentally misunderstood something somewhere or else you've lost me with that statement.
al h.
In this case, TBT had a customer who was only willing to buy rainbow-toned PCGS Morgans grading 65 or higher on the insert. The customer had his own reasons for imposing those restrictions, which probably relate to the his assessment of marketability of the coin on resale someday. The customer probably understands "buy the coin, not the holder" but also has to factor the reality of the marketplace into his decisions. At any rate, TBT PROMISED HIS CUSTOMER first shot at the coin. So TBT did a VERY HONORABLE THING by not taking the NGC MS66* and running with it to auction. Instead, he made a valiant effort to get the coin back into a PCGS MS65 holder to make good on his promise to give his customer first shot.
Further, TBT could have resold the coin in the original PCGS MS65 holder at a profit. But he felt strongly that the coin itself (not the holder) needed the conservation to bring out its natural beauty. In this case, "conservation" was film removal, not dipping to remove toning or metal oxides. Film removal merely removes a FOREIGN substance and should not be objectionable. The coin would have brought more money in an NGC MS66* at a major public auction, no doubt about it. But TBT was going for the immediate sale to his established customer.
By the way, NGC will never put it back into the 66* holder. I believe they give an extra bump to coins coming through NCS to promote their lucrative conservation service. I remember when a dealer took my 1877 gold proof set, and sent all the coins through NCS. The original beautiful toning was stripped away, along with the history and the pedigrees. Three of the coins upgraded, netting the dealer a $100,000+ profit. Those upgrades would never have been given to me on an ordinary resubmission. And I would never have sent those coins to NCS to strip away their toning and turn them into lobotomized de-historicized shiny new widgets. So, I missed out on the $100,000 bump. Anyway, that was another story ... in this case, it sounds like the conservation was appropriate and needed. Nothing wrong with that.
So QUIT RAGGING ON TBT.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Sunnywood - Never say never.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.