Can An Uncirculated Coin Be Graded Less Than MS-60 Based On Excessive Bag Marks Alone?

RCDB

I'm not talking about deep gashes. I'm talking about the normal bag marks that you can see clearly with a 30X loupe. If they are excessive, even though the coin is clearly uncirculated, can that coin be graded by the top 2 below MS-60?

I'm of the opinion that it can't be graded lower. You thoughts and expert opinions, please.

JrGMan2004

For me... if it doesn't have wear, then it would be MS... the definition of MS is, correct me if I'm wrong, a lack of wear... so, to me, for a coin to be AU or less, there must be some wear...

hookedoncoins

I agree. If there is no wear, it is MS. I have seen coins marked uncirculated that were bagmarked to death. That is essentially the purpose of a MS60.

zenny

i would think looking at a ms60 coin with a 30 power loupe would be three steps beyond overkill.

cladking

I asked this question of Homerunhall on the Q&A forum some time back and his answer was "no".

I have seen coins so heavily marked up that the marking could hide wear on the high points.
It would seem if the high points are completely obscured then the coin should automatically
be considered AU. This is a pretty unusual occurance and seems to be primarily afflicting mod-
erns so is mostly a moot point at this time.

coinguy1

<< <i>I'm not talking about deep gashes. I'm talking about the normal bag marks that you can see clearly with a 30X loupe >>

RCDB, if you're using a 30x loupe, or anything approaching that, you're looking way too closely to make such a determination. If you know how to examine and go about grading a coin correctly, such magnification is unnecessary.

In answer to your question, under the conditions you mentioned, the coin should not be graded lower than MS60 and I suspect you might be grading too conservatively, based upon your above comment.

jdimmick

Even a ms-67 coin would look somewhat marked under that kind of magnification.

And I agree, if the coin clearly has no wear, then it would carry the MS designation, regardless of bagmarks. However, sometimes I feel that PCGS tends to Au a coin if thier is the slightest hint of rub. I have seen many Au-58 coins that I had to look hard to even try to detect the slightest wear or rub.

Dog97

No. If it's <<<clearly uncirculated>>> then it's graded Mint State, BU, Uncirculated or whatever you want to call it.
Not to worry about the excessive bag marks, that's what the 60 grade is for.
If you have to have a 30x loupe to see them I wouldn't call them normal bag marks, unless you can see them with your eyeball too.

fivecents

I beleive if a coin has enough bag marks to hide wear (usually wear in the fields) then the answer is yes the coin should be dropped to the AU level. I am talking about coins with a mind blowing amount of bag marks.

Coinosaurus

Hmm, we need a new grade - MS58!

Yes, if a coin is baggy enough, and you are truly using "market grading", then you have to call it less than 60.

tradedollarnut

IMO, the MS and AU denotions should be dropped all together - or the numerical range restrictions removed. No longer is a true AU58 considered less of a coin than a ratty technical MS60. What's wrong with MS55 or AU64?

Baley

it can grade MS60, but be valued AU58 or lower because of excessive baggies.

Shamika

If there is no wear, the coin is mint state. Period.

Of course, nobody said that it's worth an MS60 price. A dog is a dog is a dog.

XpipedreamR

<< <i>...30X loupe... >>

Conder101

<< <i>I'm talking about the normal bag marks that you can see clearly with a 30X loupe >>


We won't worry about the marks that take something stronger than a 30X to see.

dorkkarl

in slab terms, the answer is yes. that's because grade inflation has made it possible for circulated coins to grade unc.

technical answer is no. ms-60 is supposed to be reserved for the worst possible unc coin.

K S

Lakesammman

Gotta be a typo - 3X??

Trime

NO

RCDB

It's no typo. I use a 30X Loupe. I find it interesting that most of you feel it is overkill. When I got back into the hobby a couple of years ago, I did start out with a 10X, but my eyesight just isn't what it used to be and I had to really strain to get a good look at even a Morgan with the 10X. Well, the 30X resolved that and I don't think that seeing more than you might need to is an issue. I studied hundreds of PCGS and NGC slabs and am pretty confident that I understand what I am looking at. I will admit that I am probably one grade more conservative since I switched, but I think that is a plus, not a minus. I'm pretty hard on the local dealers, but so far when I think a coin is overpriced and I explain to them what I see and what grade I make it out to be, they have given in every time. Of course, it might be my charm and charisma, but if it works, I'm not fixing it.
I'll find out for certain in a couple of days. My first submission results will soon be posted and I've got to tell you I'm foaming at the mouth in anticipation.