Ethical/Moral Question

quattrocoins

I'll be quick. What is your feeling about something like this:

This coin is still sittin' on my desk ready to be mailed out today. The buyer just paid for it late yesterday via PayPal. (why the delay there, I don't know).

I'm surfin' the new listings of Washingtons this morning and I come across This coin. He even used my picture!

What do you think I should do, if anything?

Thanks,

Don

nwcs

Well, he bought the coin so you should send it. And advise him not to use your auction pictures -- he bought the coin and not the pictures of it.

jeffnpcb

Let it ride and get over it! Sit back and see how far the auction goes. With that opening bid, may not go far.

KollectorKing

Nothing. He paid for the coin already, so he has a right to sell it.

rlawsha

Once he bought the quarter from you and paid for it, he can do whatever he wants with it. He could charge $10,000 if he wanted to and that would be perfectly fine (although silly). The question is, does he now OWN the coin or not? You said he paid for it so technically it is his coin even though he does not have physical possession of it yet. I would say this is borderline bad behavior but I do believe he has the right and it is ethical.

ccrdragon

Notify both him and ebay that he is using your pix w/o permission. ebay should shut the auction down.

LucyBop

blackwidowcoins will do this, they will try and win a coin at a lower cost then turn around and sell. I have had them bid but not win many of my auctions..

To me, if they win my auction and pay, then they can do with it as they want...... I do wish though that they would shoot their own image...

but, your paid, your goal was to sell, and you did....

rlawsha

I also aggree that it is wrong to use your picture of the coin.

MICHAELDIXON

Send the coin to him and forget about it. He upheld his end of the deal. Tread lightly on this one, as you might be sitting yourself up for legal action should you not uphold your end of the deal. Amazingly, people who bid on Ebay check the auctions won by the seller and will see what he paid for it.

coppercoins

It's not just ethically wrong to use your photo, it's illegal.

UncleJoe

What exactly is the ethical/moral question?

Notify both him and ebay that he is using your pix w/o permission. ebay should shut the auction down.

Why would eBay shut him down? He is actually selling the coin in question. He did not "steal" a pic of something he is selling and doesn't own.

Joe.

wondercoin

Don: Legalities aside - since they feel your 47(s) quarter is now a $365-$1000 coin - go sell them all your dups and offer to include beautiful scans with each order

Wondercoin

UncleJoe

It's not just ethically wrong to use your photo, it's illegal.

Please explain.

Joe.

XpipedreamR

What exactly is your (potential) beef with this guy? That he doesn't have the coin yet? Or the use of the photo?

If he paid, it's certainly his to do with as he wants, of course.


I guess he shouldn't be using your pictures. Do you know whether you give up any rights to the picture by posting it on the "ebayimg.com" site?


Are you just PO'ed that he may sell the coin for more than you did?




I'm only curious

ccrdragon

They way that copyright law is written, since quattro was the first to publish the picture, he owns the copyright and blackwidow does not have his permission to use it!

prooflike

Well, you didn't make comment, so I guess it is safe he didn't ask you to drop-ship it for him also

ealandg

Don't sweat it. Life is WAY too short to be getting worked up by a few folks trying to make a quick buck.

nwcs

<< <i>It's not just ethically wrong to use your photo, it's illegal.

Please explain.

Joe. >>

A photo is a copyrighted expression. A person who buys a coin does not receive rights to any photograph of the coin. The photograph remains the property of the person who photographed it (if they had permission to photograph or owned it). Therefore a person who re-uses a photograph without permission is stealing the photograph -- that is they are using a copyrighted item without permission. This is illegal. It is hard to prosecute, but it is theft. And with the DMCA, it's probably easy to force ebay to remove auction which have stolen photos.

JRocco

E-mail him and verbally spank him. It may make him think twice next time.

tlhoy

<< <i>Notify both him and ebay that he is using your pix w/o permission. ebay should shut the auction down. >>



This is correct! If you notify eBay, they will remove his auction. He'll still have to pay the listing fees too!
It's his coin to do with what he wants BUT, he cannot use your photo.
Glenn

edsondl

Photographs are covered by copyright law, just like any other creative or artistic expression. He may have bought the coin, but the photographer did not sell him the picture.

Real world example: People.

1. When you have (or had) your wedding photos taken, the photographer shows you a series of proof photos from which to make your selections for your albums. Just because you are in the photos (you own yourself, right?) doesn't mean that you own the proofs. To the contrary, you must return all of the proofs to the photographer, or you will be charged a very large fee.

2. Celebrities shown in tabloids do not own, or have a right to, the pictures of them sold by paparatzi (photographers that have the copyright by originally creating the photograph).

1956Quarter

He paid for it, so he can try to sell it. Its kind of hard for him to take his own picture if its still not in his hands. To solve that problem, delete your pictures as soon a the auction ends.

291fifth

<< <i>Nothing. He paid for the coin already, so he has a right to sell it. >>



But he doesn't have the right to use the photos. Send him an email and request $XXX for use of the photos.

newsman

Don:

I just wanted to add to what others have said here -- by law, the rights to all original creative work, such as photos, belong to the creator unless assigned. You don't have to register a copyright to claim it -- all you need is proof it's your work -- and your eBay auction listing provides that.

He's got a contractual right to the coin, for sure, but since he already published your photo without permission -- posting something to the Internet fits the legal definition of publishing -- he owes you money for its use. Perhaps you should send him a bill and tell him he won't get the coin until it's paid in full.

Chuck

jom

As to him selling the coin: It is HIS coin so he can do whatever he wants with it.

The problem I have is him taking the PICTURE. It is NOT his and he SHOULD have asked if he wanted to use it. Recently, I sold a coin to someone here at the boards and they ASKED to use my picture in their Registry. THAT was the right thing to do NOT steal the photo like this guy.

jom

topstuf

Save the file to look at as a historical document in case moderns take a dump.

It would be very illustrative of the consistency and depth of the rarity.

And taking down the picture right after the auction won't do much on a real bidder. As soon as I bid on anything, I have the picture saved first.

Just.........in..........case.

photog

Well, my inclination would be nothing. If he paid for it, then it is his, and he does have a right to resell it. Was it right to use your photos? No. Could you really do anything about it without causing undo aggravation (such as a negative feedback or something silly)? Not likely. It's an ebay photo, probably digital at that- not a prize winner, so maybe that too should slide- not because it's RIGHT to take someone's photo, but because arguing the point with a fool is useless. There is a saying that goes (roughly) "You can have a pi$$ing contest with a skunk, but the skunk only gets wet and you end up stinking."
I have bought things on eBay then turned them over later. I usually wait until I have the item in my hands, first.

And edsondle- you are right about copywright. But it is a little deeper than the proofs- those are just prints. The NEGATIVES are where the true ownership lies. That's why you should never enter a photography contest where they ask for your negative- bad idea. And as far as wedding photos, I used to work in a photo lab and I had to explain to people daily that just because they purchased the photo didn't mean they owned the right to copy it- they could display, show it, eat it for all I cared, but copying it carried a $600,000 fine. When I photograph weddings I sell the couple the negatives because I hate having to dig through them a year later to make a copy or two. This being an eBay photo, though, even I would let it slide.

nwcs

Taking the pic down after auction won't help. They can easily save it before then. It is better to embed a copyright and your ebay seller ID in a place where they cannot crop it out. Like a 50% transparent text over the image. Like the attachment.

Dave99B

Don, why do you care? If you sued for damages, what would the damages be?

Dave

PS Nice quarter!

BAJJERFAN

Interesting as buyer paid for coin which seller still has, but now buyer owns it. Let the damn thing get lost in the mail and see if buyer still claims ownership. SOOOO!! all of you legal beagles: Who is the rightful owner of THAT coin?

keets

............and just to play Devils Advocate for a moment, whenever someone links a poicture here or anywhere, they've stolen it in the same way. why is it that nothing is ever said about that??

al h.

relayer

The nice people on eBay are out to rip you for your coins. Open your listings at a price that is fair for both you and buyer.

nwcs

<< <i>............and just to play Devils Advocate for a moment, whenever someone links a poicture here or anywhere, they've stolen it in the same way. why is it that nothing is ever said about that??

al h. >>

True. It is still wrong. The intent and use is different, and sometimes may even qualify for the educational use copyright exclusion, but it shouldn't be done without permission.

keets

i personally feel that the copyright laws are being stretched a bit in examples like this and even with regard to publically published pictures and recorded music, etc. consider a band playing the song of some other artist and being sued. why is that any different from me walking down the street and humming/singing it?? it all gets back to lawyers and their perversion of the law for the Almighty Dollar.

if i have a thought and put it down on paper, do i have some right to it's regulated use?? it's absurd to even think i do. when it's in my head it may be mine exclusively, once in the public domain, well, it's the publics to do with what they please. the only reason plagarism laws are even in effect is because of-----the Almighty Dollar.

al h.

quattrocoins

Thanks for all the replys.

I just want to add that I never questioned who's coin it is (it's his), and I will be shipping it.

Photog, I like your analogy.


Don

nwcs

>the only reason plagarism laws are even in effect is because of-----the Almighty Dollar.

True, both ways. The person who plagiarizes is hoping to benefit from something they didn't create. The other brings charges because they want to benefit from what they created that someone else is using.

I agree that the fair use and what's legal issues have been stretched and twisted a lot. But there is a difference between humming in private and making a public exhibition of another's music.

cherrypickincoin

The problem here is that you have not shipped him the coin yet and he is violating an eBay policy by listing something that he does NOT have in stock, especially with a Buy It Now. He's also using your photography. You bet your arse I would confront him about it.

relayer

<< <i>"You can have a pi$$ing contest with a skunk, but the skunk only gets wet and you end up stinking." >>

keets

hey Neil

semantics----a lawyer specialty.

al h.

newsman

<< <i>if i have a thought and put it down on paper, do i have some right to it's regulated use?? >>



Absolutely -- if you copyright it, it's yours. There are people who make a living doing exactly that.

Barry

I wouldn't get worked up about it. However, if you want to be a b*st*rd and make him sweat, tell him he owes you another $20 for using your picture, and you'll ship the coin only after you get the additional money.

Neptune

Altho some won't agree - here's what I would do. I would get his phone number from the eBay 'contact member' form, and call him and/or email him and tell him: "I'm sorry, but the coin has been lost, and I must refund your money". I would not mention that you know that he has relisted the coin, and play like you have no knowledge of it - If he mentions, just say oh, really - what's the item number - send me a link - so sorry, Uncle Charlie!

Then I WOULD refund his money. (Boy will this put him in a bind by selling a coin he doesn't possess and that he stole a photo of!!!)

Then I would contact eBay and tell them that he stole your photo. Then I would hold onto the coin for awhile, and if you want to .... relist it again MUCH later. You may be out the eBay fees for first auction, but you will have the satisfaction of setting what is wrong - right.

Robgetty

The guy was wrong, but I'm not sure if it is worth the effort to do much
about it. Copyright violations are hard to push.

quattrocoins

I recievieved the following e-mail from the seller:

"i see you had a problem with me using your pix so i ended the auction,
i didnt know you wasnt allowed im very sorry, i will have to get my
own, hope no harsh fellings , but i wish you would of asked me not to
before broadcasting on internet, but no prob here honest mistake, hope i
get my coin soon still? will buy again thanks blackwidowcoins!"

First of all, ya gotta love the sentence structure,...and how the 1st one ends! lol

Second, and most importantly, if they "didn't know you wasn't allowed" then, they certainly do now. So why is it that their other auctions haven't been pulled?

their '61-D

Stolen from our own Manofcoins' '61-D

their '41-D

Again stolen from Manofcoins

I bet all of their auctions are the same. If they don't have a camera or scanner, what's a schiester to do?

Now, who tipped them off that I was "broadcasting on internet"?!? LOL

Don

ConstellatioCollector

It's sold so send the coin. So far there has been a lot of lookie-loos but I don't see any bids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quattrocoins

ConstellatioCollector,

How can you see any bids when the auction was pulled?!?

Don

ConstellatioCollector

OK, so I should have read that it was pulled. I viewed the amount of people that viewed the auction and noticed the "0 Bids".

nankraut

Except for the picture plaguarization issue, I see no problem. This is true Capitalism.

AKrick

As far as I'm concerned, anybody that buys a coin from me is welcomed to any of the pictures used to sell the coin. Most people ask first but not a big deal if they don't. Kind of flattering if you ask me.

Rick

Whitewashqtr

Don

I agree that they have the right to sell the coin at any price they wish. But I dont agree that they should not produce their own pictures. If you read the auction, and nobody picked this up, it said something to the effect "that the pictures / scans were darker than the actual coin".

The seller had just revised this information in the auction that was already ended (I dont know how you can revise that AFTER the auction ends) but I know what it said.

Either way, they still own the coin and I am sure it will go back up for auction as soon as it is received.

It actually looks like a nice coin and sold at a cheap price. No wonder they are trying to flip it. Are you more sore at the fact that they stole the pic or that they tried to resell it at a higher price? Just curious.

WWQ

quattrocoins

I find it strange how many feel that it's okay to list a coin that is not even in one's possession yet. I'm sorry, but it's something that I would never think of doing! What if the coin was lost and some idiot had already hit the b.i.n.? The only satisfied parties then would be ebay and pp.

Stealin' someone else's pictures to "flip" the same coin is something else I would never think of doing. Somethings just don't feel right and usually aren't.

As for me being sore "that they tried to resell it at a higher price",... yeah, right!
How'd I know you'd get to that, steve? hey, my '39-S is @$559! Is someone else a little sore?

Don