Poll: PVC

wybrit · February 7, 2004 5:46AM

As you might know, PVC is used in "soft flips" - the ones that are easy to fold. What is your position on the soft flips?

You know mine.

1jester · February 7, 2004 6:06AM

I agree wholeheartedly with Wybrit. PVC serves NO purpose other than to destroy coins. It's only a matter of time before coins are simply corroded and eaten away by the vile chemicals.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why people continue to support and use the evil plastic. It's behavior unbecoming of a coin collector and/or numismatist.

I've personally seen PVC utterly destroy a collection (my own) worth half a million dollars. PLEASE, don't use the poison!!! If not for yourself, think of the children.....

spoon · February 7, 2004 6:15AM

I meant to start a PVC blacklist webpage a while back.. After I came back from that last show I had a heap of PVC infested holders. I was going to take pics so people might be able to identify the bad ones (some 2x2s have branded stamps on em)... but then I forgot and tossed em all out before doing anything else

If any of y'all want to do something like this I'll host the pages.. ?

1jester · February 7, 2004 6:37AM

PVC comes not only in flips, but also in seemingly benign 2X2s, such as those sold by Hartberger:

sumnom · February 7, 2004 6:43AM

Ah yes, I have seen those before.

spinaker2000 · February 7, 2004 6:44AM

I had brought this subject up a few months back. It seemed that from a dealers point of view, it wasn't cost effective to switch over to safe flips. I still disagree. I would be impressed to come across a dealer that took extra care of his stock, and kept all coins in safe flips. I would also be willing to spend the extra few dimes per coin to pay the difference. Heck, I already do anyway, just when I get them home.

wybrit · February 7, 2004 6:59AM

1jester, are you certain that the 2x2s contain PVC?

I have seen some problems with mylar holders in the past, but I think the root cause is that the affected coins have been previoulsy housed in PVC flips before being transferred to the new holder.

I have numerous common dates housed in 2x2s and have never seen a problem with coins of "known pedigree."

wybrit · February 7, 2004 7:00AM

I would, however, want to know the chemical makeup of the adhesive in the flips you depict.

ColinCMR · February 7, 2004 7:21AM

I'm definitely against the use of PVC softened plastics in storing collectables.

1jester · February 7, 2004 7:32AM

Wybrit, not all 2X2s are created equal. I've had absolutely no problem with American-made mylar 2x2s.

The Hartberger 2x2s, however, are a totally different animal, and as you can see, they stretch almost as far as a condom before breaking. Try that with mylar 2x2s: they won't stretch one iota. Also, they sound different; mylar sort of crinkles, and this trash imparts a softer thud when you tap it. It's totally different material. And, after having some coins in these Hartbergers, I noticed the tell-tale signs of PVC transfer in the form of a ring exactly where the edges of the coin touched the foil. Horrified, I opened them all up and found there was also the film everywhere the coin touched the film (high points and edge). They all went to the acetone bath and into paper holders until I could find mylar Saflips from the States a couple months later. What's especially disappointing is that Hartberger in no uncertain terms declares all its products absolutely safe for all coins. WHAT AN OUTRAGEOUS LIE!!!! They are PVC and ruinous to your coins' health.

historygeek · February 7, 2004 7:52AM

<<<I've personally seen PVC utterly destroy a collection (my own) worth half a million dollars. PLEASE, don't use the poison!!! If not for yourself, think of the children.....>>>

I feel for you... Did you sue anyone?

HG

1jester · February 7, 2004 8:19AM

No, I take full responsibility for letting my dad take care of my collection (actually, the story is a bit more complicated: he swindled the collection from me). He left it outside for five years in the shed about a half mile from the Atlantic Ocean, at Fernandina Beach Florida. This helped teach me a valuable lesson. Actually, at least two: don't trust your dad (according to his good advice, if you don't take pay for something, you won't take care of it, which is what happened), and....

DON'T EVER USE PVC UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!!!! It's just not worth it.

coinkat · February 7, 2004 10:36AM

It should be banned...

wybrit · February 7, 2004 9:20PM

ttt

rhound1977 · February 7, 2004 10:05PM

I see many coins stored in soft flips, that I am certain contain the dreaded PVC plasticizers (sp

). I have to admit I do use them myself for short term storage of tadeable extas and newly purchased coins that need to be cataloged. For long term storage I use 'Saflips', Mylar 2x2's, intercept shield 2x2, TPG holders, and soon I will use "Coin World slab like holders'. Saflips should be used for higher priced coins and everyone should be made aware of long term storage issues with soft flips/holders. Coins also need to be stored in a safe, moderate tempature with low humidity, I feel that humidity and tempature also influence the PVC damage.

Unless the product disapears off the market place, I don't think we will ever be rid of it. I will work towards not using them anymore once my small stock of them is depleted. I do use the larger soft flips for TPG submission because of the low cost, the coins is in a poly-bag first, and I know they will be in them for the short term. Besides the TPG just tosses them or what ever anyway. I put proof coins in 'Saflips' for TPG submissions.

I have seen numerous threads on this subject, and I don't disagree it would be nice to eleminate the product altogether. But in the mean time education and knowledge are the best resource. I have also seen warnings from dealers and collectors not to keep the coins for long term sotrage in the soft flip the coin came in.

Thanks for letting me ramble on, as if you had a choice.......

edited because I can't spell or type...

wybrit · February 7, 2004 10:19PM

I feel that humidity and tempature also influence the PVC damage.

Not just a feeling but true! Higher temperatures will increase reaction rates.

As for humidity, you only have to look at CuNi and NiBrass coins from Britain. Coins that end up in dry climates such as the Rocky Mountain region look fantastic. The same coin types I find in the humid UK are hazy and spotted.

1jester · February 8, 2004 2:56AM

Humidity and temperature combined with PVC make for a very quick coin death. Going back to my real-life example, the coins were stored outside near the beach in Florida. It's extremely humid there year round, and it's also extremely hot, especially inside a shed. Plus, there's much salt in the air. So the coins don't stand a chance. Incidentally, I had a bunch of coins in mylar 2X2s, and these escaped absolutely unscathed, despite the heat, humidity and salty air. So the prime factor is PVC.

PVC can even begin its destruction within weeks, or even days, of being placed in contact with a coin. Therefore I will not hold any of my coins in PVC for any amount of time, not even a day. It's just not worth the risk. I also will not send any coins in PVC, for fear of damage on route to the destination, as well as the possibility that the next person might keep them in PVC.

If we care anything at all about coins, we should make a concerted effort to eliminate all PVC products from our houses.

MacCrimmon · February 8, 2004 3:30AM

<< <i>If we care anything at all about coins, we should make a concerted effort to eliminate all PVC products from our houses. >>

Preach it, jester!

We'd all have more fun bare nekkid, though!!!

historygeek · February 8, 2004 5:09AM

Is it ok if I hold my Vinyl 2x2's in PVC pages? Is there a gas form of PVC that can somehow get into the vinyl flips and my coins?

lordmarcovan · February 8, 2004 5:19AM

I use inert flips, but the ones I use are so damn brittle, they crack and split in two within a month or two. I gotta find some better ones. I do use soft flips for really big coins presently, since one of my inert flips would crack in no time if stressed that much.

1jester · February 8, 2004 5:32AM

meLord brings up a drawback of mylar flips, and that is their tendency to crack in the middle if handled too much. I suppose this would be an irritating point for a dealer, if customers are constantly opening the flip to look at the coin. Civitas mentioned this problem too.

I still don't like the idea of using PVC, however.

HG, vinyl=PVC, so the vinyl flips are PVC flips. As for the vinyl album pages, I've heard that if the flip or airtite or 2X2 is placed in a vinyl page, it won't hurt as long as there's no direct contact with the coin and PVC. This is the principal that ICCS uses in their "slabs": a Saflip inside a PVC flip. I still don't like this arrangement, and cut out every ICCS-slabbed coin I get, and put them in acetone to make sure there's no contamination. One nice Canadian half dollar had PVC contamination, and I can't be certain it was there before it was slabbed by ICCS or not. In any case, I don't think it's appropriate to have any PVC near any coins, and that includes vinyl album pages.

kamehameha00 · February 8, 2004 6:15AM

PVC=Bad

Syracusian · February 8, 2004 7:02AM

The best holders are the paper enveloppes I think. They're safe, coins tone nicely over time, but you can't see them, unless you take them out. If it's any consolation, there's plenty of room for an accurate description, like Mac's example with both US grade, and lustre percentage.

wallstreetman · February 9, 2004 3:18AM

<< <i>
The Hartberger 2x2s, however, are a totally different animal, and as you can see, they stretch almost as far as a condom before breaking. >>

Cool, They are a lot cheaper too!

Shipcoin · February 9, 2004 7:04PM

Does anybody knows if "Optima" uses PVC in their album's pages? Look likes it is very hard material, which should be free from PVC?!

Mike, it looks like that one of the coins, I have sent you from my recent giveaway was packed in PVC "coat"

Not sure about it, but I know that 10 (!) years ago I bought in that exactly "pocket" some other coin, that was there all these years- firstly in very humid climate of St Petersburg and secondary in terrible local climate. The coin DOESN'T affected by that pocket, vice-versa was still BUNC, what it was originally.From the other hand some other coins , which were in very hard plastic's albums, got (just some of them) some green oxydation in the shape of round, which was removed, BTW, very easy.

So as for me it is very difficalt to know what type of album's pages includes PVC and what not.
Anyway, Mike, please excuse me if one, or some of coins were sent in "container" with that evil

and BTW, hope you'll get them soon, may be registered post for Poland takes more time than usual?!

Shipcoin · February 10, 2004 4:01PM

TTT, concerning "optima" question!

1jester · February 14, 2004 1:27AM

Nick, I'm sorry but I don't know about Optima. I wish I did! Who sells/produces it? One way to get an idea if it's PVC or not is to try to break the plastic foil, and if it's hard, it might not be PVC. If, on the other hand, it's soft/flexible, it's guaranteed to be PVC.

Shipcoin · February 14, 2004 1:44AM

Thanks Mike --it is very hard---Severo also used to use it for his coins, as far as I understood from his weekly expositions---it is German product , looks like most popular one in Europe and close

to Europe countries. And it not cheap one, BTW.

1jester · February 14, 2004 1:46AM

Being expensive is a good sign, but not necessarily conclusive. I hope it's a good product.

Bruce · February 14, 2004 2:35AM

If it damages coins I am against it, plain and simple.

Poll: PVC

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