PCGS Listened: There's now a non-FBL and non-FB division

DennisH · February 6, 2004 8:44AM

PCGS is doing a trial to gauge our interest in having a non-strike qualifier (bonus points) Registry Set division. They're starting with Franklins and Roosevelts.

The categories are now up and available for posting -- so post your coins!!

As for me, I'm going to go out and buy some Franklins this weekend.

RooseyFan · February 6, 2004 9:02AM

Well just to get things started.

I listed my partial set of Rooseys. It is comprised of a few new coins and a few I just couldn't part with.

Butch

LucyBop · February 6, 2004 10:18AM

WHERES MY SHORT SET FOR WINGED LIBERTYS!!!!!!!!!!!

Russ · February 6, 2004 10:23AM

<< <i>WHERES MY SHORT SET FOR WINGED LIBERTYS!!!!!!!!!!! >>

We have short sets for Kennedy halves. We don't need any others.

Russ, NCNE

foodude · February 6, 2004 10:47AM

I tried out the Franklin Non-FB registry with my set, and I'm #1

Of Course there are only two sets registered, and the other ojne only has one coin

DennisH · February 6, 2004 10:48AM

That one's mine... and I had the borrow the cert. # from a friend!

tradedollarnut · February 6, 2004 11:02AM

I think this is cool.

foodude · February 6, 2004 11:03AM

I think this is cool.

Come on Bruce, join the franklin party

solid · February 6, 2004 11:58AM

I believe this is very good. It will encourage more people to participate in the registry, and will serve as a place to highlight some truly outstanding coins that just don't cut it for the FBL (or whatever) designation.

Ken

foodude · February 6, 2004 12:14PM

I too hope it encourages more people to particiapte to, as well as allow more people to have fun. While I don't know why PCGS decided to give this a try (perhaps I missed the announcement, or a HRH post), I do know that some people conveyed to HRH that there was interested in a Non-FBL registry set listing. For example, someone asked him about this in the Q&A forum a few weeks ago.

I followed up on that Q&A post with this post and (an unscientific) poll (which currently is about 75 for a non-FBL registry) Link. In addition, about a week or two ago, I sent HRH a PM on the topic along with a link to the post and poll. BTW, I didn't really care one way or the other, but if people wanted it, and it encourages more participation, then

And a big

to PCGS for giving it a try.

jbsteven · February 6, 2004 12:15PM

I bet they are going to make a Merc registry with no FB bonuses. Great I just sold all my ms68's.

foodude · February 6, 2004 12:17PM

Great I just sold all my ms68's

Jason, I heard that is what tilted the scales toward giving it a try. Thanks for your help

PQpeace · February 6, 2004 12:45PM

Hey..I am number 2 !
I can't keep away from these frankies !
Larry

RegistryCoin · February 6, 2004 1:03PM

Don't shoot down this trial balloon. This (concept) is a keeper!

PQpeace · February 6, 2004 1:12PM

I think it is a fine idea !!!
Larry

DennisH · February 6, 2004 1:34PM

Frankies... I need Frankies!

PQpeace · February 6, 2004 1:36PM

Dennis,
I have just what u need

DennisH · February 6, 2004 1:43PM

LARRY!!!!!

You only have one Frankie in inventory, and it's an FBL! C'mon now... what are you holding back?

haletj · February 6, 2004 1:48PM

Wow! So where can you find no fbl Franklins? I'd love to put together a no fbl ms65 set, but they are harder to find than the gobs and gobs of fbl coins.

Speaking of the fbl/fs/fb designations, I don't care about any of them, since it is usually (esp fb/fs) such a small part of the coin, and overall strike (say like in Jefferson's hair) is much more important to me. Actually, the one designation I would collect is FH quarters, because that is such a major part of the design.

PQpeace · February 6, 2004 1:50PM

Look at the brand new pqdollars.com FRANKLIN SET

iT IS # 2 IN THE REGISTRY..
PERFECT FOR A NEWBIE LIKE YOU dENNIS

Larry

foodude · February 6, 2004 2:01PM

Wow! So where can you find no fbl Franklins?

Oh they are around, and this registry will help bring them to the surface. I've sold most of my non-FBLs recently, too bad I didn't wait a bit longe to sell them.

segoja · February 6, 2004 10:48PM

Do FBL frankies NOT count? Can you add FBL to the set anyway at the base grade?

segoja · February 6, 2004 10:56PM

Answered my own questions:

Yes FBL count and are valid coins.

Already #3 (out of 4)

fcloud · February 6, 2004 11:00PM

What's the point?

If you can add coins with the designations, why have the set at all?

It the set is for Non attributed coins, it should be all non attributed coins!

Cocoinut · February 6, 2004 11:12PM

I don't have anywhere near a complete PCGS Frankie set, but most of those that I have are non-FBL. Some of them were purchased before PCGS began designating FBL's, but the majority of them are truly non-FBL. The coins are in the safe deposit box, and I have no intention of going there today, but if I can find photos of them, I'll register whatever I can find.

I think it's a great idea.

Too much emphasis is placed on the striking detail of a small portion of the coin, while the rest of it is ignored.

Jim

foodude · February 6, 2004 11:31PM

What's the point?

If you can add coins with the designations, why have the set at all?

It the set is for Non attributed coins, it should be all non attributed coins!

The new catagory is not for only non-FBL, it is a catagory that only factors in the numerical grade (i.e., no weight is given to an FBL designation). For example, a '53-S MS65FBL is given the same as a '53 MS65 (w/o the FBL designation). Further, a '53 MS66 in this set catagory is given more points than a '53-S 65FBL.

edsondl · February 7, 2004 12:42AM

So, in addition to this new registry increasing demand and prices for otherwise high grade coins that miss the requirements of an attribute, will the cost of lower-grade, attributed coins ease some?

JMOORE · February 7, 2004 1:05AM

IrishMike · February 7, 2004 2:01AM

Kudos to David and the gang.

bartdog · February 7, 2004 3:12AM

Well - I added my eight PCGS nfbl coins to the registry. Unfortuately the rest of my set lives in NGC holders and is registered across the street. Yes, I actually have a complete non-fbl set!

I need to finsh imaging the set.

Bill

My NGC non FBL Registry Collection

mdwoods · February 7, 2004 3:29AM

It's a great idea. There are many gorgeous Frankies that you need a magnifier to see that they are non FBL. The difference can be so tiny.

Stooge · February 7, 2004 3:43AM

I think that this is utterly amazing that there are already a few sets listed for the NON...NON...its says NON FB or FBL Franklin and roosevelt sets and there are those that listed FB and FBL coins in these sets.

All this belly aching with a little ranting going on and whats the first thing that some of you do...you list FBL's and FB's in these sets.

Does anyone know what NON means? I bet you a dollar that David Hall is sitting at his computer shaking his head in utter disbelief.

Later,
Paul B. Gunsallus

IrishMike · February 7, 2004 4:04AM

<< <i>I think that this is utterly amazing that there are already a few sets listed for the NON...NON...its says NON FB or FBL Franklin and roosevelt sets and there are those that listed FB and FBL coins in these sets.

All this belly aching with a little ranting going on and whats the first thing that some of you do...you list FBL's and FB's in these sets.

Does anyone know what NON means? I bet you a dollar that David Hall is sitting at his computer shaking his head in utter disbelief.

Later,
Paul B. Gunsallus >>

Paul, I doubt if David is surprised, are you?

foodude · February 7, 2004 4:09AM

Does anyone know what NON means?

Where does it say it is a non-FBL set? It just says no weight is given to FBL, so a 65 and 65FBL of the same date counts the same.

edited to add: Since FBL has no weight for this new catagory, I see no need to list whether or not it is FBL, since it is irrelavent. That is, just list the numerical grade.

JMOORE · February 7, 2004 4:26AM

you list FBL's and FB's in these sets.

I for one will be replacing my FBL franklins with Non FBL. Like many others I put my FBL's in the set for now as it is all that I have.

Jim

foodude · February 7, 2004 4:33AM

I did just find one of my non-FBL cert #s for a '58, so I replaced a 66FBL with a 67 (no FBL).

edited to add: I thought the whole idea behind not recongizing the FBL designation for another catagory was to go strictly by the numerical grade and ignore the FBL or lack of FBL designation. This would be "similar" to how the w/ variety and w/o variety sets are handled. Many of the latter have the same sets listed in both catagories, although the rankings of the sets are different because the weightings are different.

The funny thing about at least the Franklin sets is that if the current #1 set in the catagory where the FBL designation is given weight where added to the new Franklin catagory where FBL is not given any weight, it would likely still be the #1.

JMOORE · February 7, 2004 4:37AM

so I replaced a 66FBL with a 67 (no FBL).

Isn't it sweet that your 67 is now worth more "points" than your 66FBL

foodude · February 7, 2004 4:41AM

Isn't it sweet that your 67 is now worth more "points" than your 66FBL

I thought that was funny too. The 67 (w/o FBL) can now hold it's head up higher

edited to add: I'm just waiting for the Current #1 set in the other Franklin catagory to register the set in the new catagory and smoke everyone.

JrGMan2004 · February 7, 2004 4:42AM

What Lucy said...

JMOORE · February 7, 2004 4:46AM

I'm just waiting for the Current #1 set in the other Franklin catagory to register the set in the new catagory and smoke everyone.

This is true, but at least we have a chance since we don't need to spend $10,000+++ on one coin to compete

Jim

foodude · February 7, 2004 4:49AM

This is true, but at least we have a chance since we don't need to spend $10,000+++ on one coin to compete

I agree, and I hope it allows more people to have fun, and give new life to those beautiful non-FBL Franklins.

Stooge · February 7, 2004 6:42AM

No it doesn't say anywhere in the listing only NON designated coins. But what is the purpose of listing a bunch of "Designated" FB & FBL coins in these sets if the sole purpose of these sets were to list NON FB/FBL coins?

It is irrelavent to me of course, but I was just wondering.

Later,
Paul B. Gunsallus

JrGMan2004 · February 7, 2004 6:47AM

The sole purpose is NOT to list just non-designated coins... the purpose is to give collectors that don't have bottomless bank accounts, to compete... if there was a Non-FB Merc set, my coins would imediately be moved there, b/c for most dates. the FBs are way more expensive, and I have no hope of competing... my set currently is like 15% complete, but I still know that I can't compete with the 20 or so sets, b/c I don't have the cashflow to buy the pieces in the first place, but I especially don't have the money to be able to buy those coins in FB... just look at the 1945-D... compare prices realized for a PCGS-65 and a PCGS-65FB... HUGE difference... and a 10 point bonus on the Registry. Most registry sets reward collectors with a lot of money to spend on coins, the little guys can't compete...

Stooge · February 7, 2004 7:03AM

JrGman2004,

Point well taken... and I understood that point from other posts wanting these non designating sets, because of financial concerns and other reasons, but I just thought that it was funny how some on here wanted these sets and then went and listed the designated coins, thats all.

What if PCGS has a non-FB for the mercs and Joshua lists his top-pop set there...everyone will still be chasing him. PCGS should never had allowed the designated coins to be entered in those sets.

Later,
Paul B. Gunsallus

JrGMan2004 · February 7, 2004 7:31AM

Yeah, if Joshua moved his set to a non-FB Registry he'd still be at the top, though he wouldn't have much incentive, because he can afford the uber coins and gets a bonus for them... but then if he moved the set, I could have a set that rivaled his on the Registry for thousands less... just a MS65 set compared to a 65FB, should be $250,000 cheaper, correct me someone if I'm wrong... but just b/c some of these people list some of these FBLs/FBs, doesn't really matter, and I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than it is... out of my 10 Slabbed Mercs, I have 1 FB, would it be bad if I used that one FB in a Non-FB Merc Set? Just happened that when I bought the coin, it had the eye appeal, color, strike and price I liked...

Can I get one of your Mercateers with too much time on your hands tally up about how much a PCGS-67 Merc Set, no varieties, would cost compared to the same set in PCGS-67FB? Thank you very much

segoja · February 7, 2004 8:48AM

Dropped from third to fifth in less than 6 hours!

Oh well, have to work a littel harder to get the balance of the set done!

Cocoinut · February 7, 2004 2:22PM

I just registered my Franklins. I'm #3, and proud to say that 16 out of the 22 coins are NON-FBL!!!

Looking at the population report, the biggest challenge in MS65 non-FBL is to find the pre-1955 Denver coins. In MS66 non-FBL lines, there are some really tough coins: the '52-D has a pop of 0, the '49-D, '51-D, '54-D, and '62-D have pops of just 1, and the '48-D, '50-D, '59-D, and '60-D have pops of 2 coins each. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the pops (and prices) of all these coins. I wouldn't expect pops to mushroom, though, because it's hard to find any Franklin in 66, and most of the earlier Denver coins are typically very well struck. There could be some real sleepers there.

Jim

foodude · February 7, 2004 2:56PM

In MS66 non-FBL lines, there are some really tough coins: the '52-D has a pop of 0, the '49-D, '51-D, '54-D, and '62-D have pops of just 1, and the '48-D, '50-D, '59-D, and '60-D have pops of 2 coins each

Keep in mind that some of the non-FBL desingated coins are actually FBL, but undesignated at this time. PCGS began giving the FBL designation in '97 or so. Not all of the earlier coins have been sent back in for designation review. In addition, some non-FBL designated coins (perhaps none of the 66s mentioned above) have been cracked out, or even crossed to NGC and the cert slips not returned to PCGS. On the later front, I've been good, I keep the cert slips and turn them in periodically.

Stooge · February 7, 2004 11:10PM

I give up!

I hope that everyone has a good time with these sets as that is the whole purpose...to have fun!!!!!!!!!!

I believe that I have/had a point and that it was received and now thats that.

Have a great Sunday!

Paul.

foodude · February 8, 2004 1:23AM

Here's a few more thoughts on the only Non-FBL v. FBL/Non-FBL debate, and the perception that it allowing FBLs in the new Franklin catagory is unfair.

After glancing (perhaps someone wirth more time could go thjrough a through analsis), while a few of the highest grade cons are only available in FBL, there is one or two dates where the non-FBL is a pop 1. In addition, several of the Franklins in the highest grade are actually much, much scarcer than their FBL counterparts. So in the end, if someone with $$$$ wanted to be at the top, the result could be the non-FBLs in some top grades may be more expensive

, and unobtainable for most people. Hence, the playing field may be more level if the designation is just ignored.

Judging from what the current #1 Franklin set in the FBL recognized catagory has paid (based on published auction realized prices), no matter how the rules are set, if he/she wanted to they have the seem to have the means to outbid most anyone that has an interest.

In general, with my set, while one version is all FBL, I've leaned to higher grade. I have two 67 FBLs in my set. If I wanted to be higher in the FBL recognized set, I could have gotten more points by buying other 66FBL coins worth more points (e.g., a '49-D 66FBL in stead of the two 67FBLs, the former is worth more registry points), although the '53-S 65FBL in my set is an exception to the higher grade approach. I tend to obtain the coins I like enter them in the sets, and see what happens.

As at least one person has mentioned above, have FUN, and enjoy whatever set you can put together. In addition, there is more to a super set then having a designation, or high numerical grade. I've passed on a some higer grade coins because I liked the current lower grade coin better, or at least the bump in price did not seem to be worth the difference in the two coins.

edited to add: For those coins available in the highest grades in both FBL and non-FBL, requiring non-FBL in a registry set may also make it even more difficult for some to compete because if a person wants to compete in both catagories would then need two of the top numercial graded coins, one FBL, and one non-FBL. If they could use the FBL coin they already have, it would leave the non-FBL available for someone else.

further edited to add: Also think about if there was an FBL only registry (i.e., no non-FBLs could be entered), as opposed to the current version were any coin can be entered, and FBLs get bonsus points, most of the currently registered sets would be forced out, or be imcomplete by at least one coin. The one coin be an FBL '53-S since there is currently only one graded 66FBL, 19 graded 65FBL, and 12 graded 64FBL (there may also be a few 63FBLs, I don't recall). That would take out, or at least give an incomplete for many super sets that just have a 65 or 66 non-FBL instead of an FBL. I think that would be a shame, as there are several outstanding sets with a '53-S in 66 (no FBL). I'd rather have a non-FBL and have a complete set, than have a hole that most people can never hope to fill.

MadMonk · February 8, 2004 1:53AM

That's great news! Now all my Non FBL Frankies will be happy!
Kudos to HRH. and Now my son gets a set in his name!

PCGS Listened: There's now a non-FBL and non-FB division

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