If a coin competition was held between the World and US coin forum, who would win?

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 6:32AM

Just chewin' on a few thoughts here. If categories that suited everyone concerned were opened for entrants and their coins, US forum vs World Forum, who would win?

Say there was a silver dollar size category, half dollar, quarter, etc. and many world coins come near enough in size to fit those categories very well, we could decide in our forum the coins we wanted to enter against theirs in the competition. I'm thinking this is a way to get them to really see some nice coins, not a tired British penny or other old but worn copper with no life left.

We could have a blast white category and beautifully toned category for every denomination.

Judging on the basis of all 4 major elements of coin grading, using whatever criteria everyone decides is fair as this will end up being a virtual competition in cyberspace-image quality will obviously be important.

We would have to decide what silver crown goes best against the Morgan dollar (I think I know all ready), and what best measures up against the other US denominations. We could follow a type coin format that spans the 17th to 21st century, categories to be selected by all interested parties.

This may seem daunting but it doesn't have to be all at once, maybe weekly, for a number of weeks. Perhaps PCGS could award some of the winners the Instant Slab Award, a prize which allows one submission (coin of choice) to be instantly slabbed and returned to the winner.

Each forum would have a team captain because it would be, after all, a team competition.

Think about it- could be fun. I also think we could win, hands down!

CIVITAS · February 4, 2004 6:41AM

<< Perhaps PCGS could award some of the winners the Instant Slab Award, a prize which allows one submission (coin of choice) to be instantly slabbed and returned to the winner. >>

Isn't that more of a punishment than a prize for Darksiders?

hookedoncoins · February 4, 2004 6:41AM

That is a cool idea. There are so many world coins with designs that make the morgan look like a dog.

P.S. - I'm not sure that PCGS would honor free gradings after the atrocity cosmicdebris did to one of their slab (MURDER!!! thread)

.

CIVITAS · February 4, 2004 6:44AM

I don't think the litesiders could compete, honestly. It's not that there aren't some beautiful U.S. coin designs, because there are. The trouble is, the darkside has too much selection to choose from. For crown/dollar sized, U.S. coins are limited to only a handful of types (barring non-circulating commems) but the darkside has way too many options (the Churchill crown for one

).

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 6:47AM

We all have coins we want to sell (presumably) that we would want slabbed for the higher price the plastic might fetch (shudder).

A free and instant submission would facilitate a world coin seller and titillate a US seller or collector.

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 6:52AM

I don't think the litesiders could compete, honestly.

We might not but they certainly would! It's also the reason we would have to choose one representative coin to go against their equivilent, not 10 different silver crowns against one morgan dollar for instance. This would make it fairer I think.

If it's a type coin competition, closest world type to applicable US type, why it would be more than fair. Certainly their coin values would be higher than ours but that's a handicap we can probably overcome.

hookedoncoins · February 4, 2004 6:52AM

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 6:54AM

Oh my, the U.S. lost all ready.

theboz11 · February 4, 2004 7:04AM

Now I don't have to worry about what to show. They can't possibly compete

Fairlaneman · February 4, 2004 7:04AM

Can a person compete on both sides ? Only problem is I like the dime size World coins alot also.

Big decision with this competition.

Ken

hookedoncoins · February 4, 2004 7:08AM

For those who don't know, the above coin belongs to Askari. It is definately grade-A darkside material.

MrEureka · February 4, 2004 7:11AM

I don't think the litesiders could compete, honestly.

Anyone with a good eye should be able to grade ANY coin.

In fact, I'm so sure of this that I have a proposition bet for anyone that cares to play. I'll put together my dream team of three litesiders and you put together your dream team of darksiders. We'll get PCGS to provide 40 DARKSIDE coins for a one round World Series. My team's 3K against your team's 3K. The winning team pays $500 to HRH's favorite charity as a token of appreciation for his efforts. Come on, hotshots, SHOW ME THE MONEY!

CIVITAS · February 4, 2004 7:27AM

<< I don't think the litesiders could compete, honestly.

Anyone with a good eye should be able to grade ANY coin.

In fact, I'm so sure of this that I have a proposition bet for anyone that cares to play. I'll put together my dream team of three litesiders and you put together your dream team of darksiders. We'll get PCGS to provide 40 DARKSIDE coins for a one round World Series. My team's 3K against your team's 3K. The winning team pays $500 to HRH's favorite charity as a token of appreciation for his efforts. Come on, hotshots, SHOW ME THE MONEY!

>>

I thought the contest was based on artistic merit and eye appeal, not grading. Maybe I should read more carefully.

Laurent, could you clarify exactly what kind of contest you are proposing? Whose coins have the highest slab grade?

Andy, as for $500.00, that's two and a half weeks pay for me. If I lost that bet, I'd be the charity case.

hookedoncoins · February 4, 2004 7:29AM

<< 

I thought the contest was based on artistic merit and eye appeal, not grading. Maybe I should read more carefully. Laurent, could you clarify exactly what kind of contest you are proposing? >>

I was under the same impression.

spinaker2000 · February 4, 2004 8:06AM

There is no doubt in my mind that litesiders can grade coins, heck they have turned the MS60-70 range into 30 increments. A high MS65, a lowend 66 etc!! Yep they can grade the crap out of a coin!

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 8:08AM

The contest I am proposing is a simple one; take this for one example of one possible denomination:

Dime size (or smaller) one each coin from the World team, one each coin from the U.S. team, blast white and colorfully toned. Eye appeal, good strike, luster, surface condition, grade not being a determining factor. No grade is impotant because this is in cyberspace where grade is not as important as the coin's history, artistic appeal, quality of the image b]and grade (taken as a very important but not most important factor). Either team can come up with the highest grades possible if they wish to.

If the coins is MS63, say mint state 63 if so slabbed; if not slabbed the expert judges of the respective teams will grade the coin with their reasons for doing so.

Is the World coin a good match for the equivilent U.S. coin in terms of buying power, composition, widespread use, size, etc.

These are the kinds of things I was thinking of...

cladking · February 4, 2004 8:11AM

Variety of collectibles is hardly a fair competition between the lite and the dark. This
sounds like a rigged contest from the start. More fair would be some sort of contest
to determine who knows or appreciates his coins the most. Of course this may be
rigged also since The Bard would probably side on the dark most of the time.

You realize, of course, there really aren't too many world clad coins. Hmmmm

ajaan · February 4, 2004 8:11AM

You must consider that when we say World Coins we are talking about many, many countries. Us coins obviously are only from one country. You can't play one country against 100. True, there are many beautiful foreign coins. But there are also many not so beautiful one. Every country has their good and their bad.

The great thing about the darkside is we don't limit ourselves to only one country. We are willing to collect whatever is pleasing to US, no matter where it came from. I choose not to collect US coins more because I think the cost is not worth it. I would rather buy a 1958 British 1/2d in Proof ( mintage of 5-15 ) for $500 than a MS67 Morgan Dollar (population of what, 5000?). Also, world coins, as I stated, give a bigger population to choose from, therefore, more variety.

I think we have to get away from this competition thingy. Collect what you like and be happy with it.

Just my 2 pence worth.

vrtech99 · February 4, 2004 8:11AM

I don't know who would win, but i want a ringside seat to see more of the beautiful Darkside coins you guys have!!!

JohnZ · February 4, 2004 8:27AM

An excellent idea, but it needs some refinement.

Would a litesider know how to judge a well-struck iron coin? Would he know how to discern original mint luster on such a piece from cleaning?

Would a litesider be able to tell the difference between the silver German Marks minted during WWI with a black finish (to prevent hoarding) from ordinary silver Marks that had toned to a dark color?

There are too many variables. I would like to hear some options about how this contest should be administered.

And I will take up MrEureka's challenge. I will personally donate $100 to the prize money, if and only if I get to nominate one of the graders on the Darkside team.

My nominee is Lord Marcovan.

Edited to add that the referees in this contest would obviously have to be the "objective" PCGS graders.

cosmicdebris · February 4, 2004 8:29AM

Nice Goetz

1jester · February 4, 2004 8:33AM

A rigged contest.....SURE!!!! That's the way we like it...

There's no way the Liteside could compete with the Dark; we'd have to give them a monstrous handicap.

They could of course add all the beautiful patterns, tokens, and colonials. I think most Litesiders ignore world coins because they simply don't know about them. Any type of contest or exhibition could help endarken them perhaps. But then be prepared for higher prices!

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 8:36AM

Jester-be thou not faint of heart! We are as one, a coin collective, as a team selecting a coin from the Darkside to go into battle with the lightside. We are not met to compete amongst ourselves; rather are we assembled to show the Light how fares the Dark.

Would the dead king step backwards? Would the fleshy mushroom shrink into the grass? Would our Snakekiller shirk his duties? Would our Nubian warrior not engage in combat with all his wiles and skills? Would the king's fool (which assuredly you are not

) not whisper words of encouragement into the royal relic's ear at a propitious moment? Would the rest of us not test the Light as a team? No one among us is lesser or greater than another, BUT no one wants to play with $500 as a stake because that does put it into a different category.

We have to lean on PCGS to make the awards available; maybe the sample slab man has connections?

Internal glory is our goal-how like the Light side (already feeling defensive enough to throw money at us as a vulger inducement to combat) to cheapen the contest. Side bets would be interesting however...

JohnZ · February 4, 2004 8:41AM

Jester-be thou not faint of heart! We are as one, a coin collective, as a team selecting a coin from the Darkside to go into battle with the lightside. We are not met to compete amongst ourselves; rather are we assembled to show the Light how fares the Dark.

Would the dead king step backwards? Would the fleshy mushroom shrink into the grass? Would our Snakekiller shirk his duties? Would our Nubian warrior not engage in combat with all his wiles and skills? Would the king's fool (which assuredly you are not) not whisper words of encouragement into the royal relic's ear at a propitious moment? Would the rest of us not test the Light as a team? No one among us is lesser or greater than another, BUT no one wants to play with $500 as a stake because that does put it into a different category.

We have to lean on PCGS to make the awards available; maybe the sample slab man has connections?

Internal glory is our goal-how like the Light side (already feeling defensive enough to throw money at us as a vulger inducement to combat) to cheapen the contest. Side bets would be interesting however...

Laurent, you're working me up into a frenzy of passionate nationalism. Let's just have a contest of words. I nominate YOU!

I'm going to go oil my guns...

satootoko · February 4, 2004 8:42AM

<< I think we have to get away from this competition thingy. Collect what you like and be happy with it. >>

Right on

Besides, where do we find an unbiased jury?

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 8:44AM

OK, I'm behind the comments here-let me catch up!

Scenario- the first weeks challenge is at the dime level (taken as an example).

The light selects a coin and the Dark selects a coin. Ultimate goal: which coin is nicer and more appealing?
Factors to consider: Strike, luster, surface condition, overall eye appeal, but no technical grade. Let me repeat that- NO TECHNICAL GRADE. If a coin is certified, by all means, mention the grade but this should not be the be-all and end-all of the contest. If I have one gripe with the Lightside, it's the infinite variation of grades and sub-grades.

1jester · February 4, 2004 8:46AM

I sha'n't shirk my duties!!! If I only had any worthy samples...

Of course, I didn't have a competition amongst ourselves in mind, but as you said, a game to show Darkside's best vs. Liteside's best.

How about this for an idea: since some might cry foul because we have so many coins to choose from, why not have a group of our coins, say 10, compete against a group of theirs (in each category)? That way, we'd be able to show some variety, and they would also get to show some variety, and the winner would be the group of coins that's most impressive.

Who could possibly be the judges in such a beauty contest? That's my main question.

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 8:55AM

One coin or 10, that is to be decided.

I can tell you I have no coin that will compete successfully. I look towards the gods of our forum for the images of their best and that is what we can decide. We know who has the killer coins and the smarts to image them well. I call upon them to boost their egos with a successful competition with the Light!

JohnZ · February 4, 2004 8:56AM

How about this for an idea: since some might cry foul because we have so many coins to choose from, why not have a group of our coins, say 10, compete against a group of theirs (in each category)? That way, we'd be able to show some variety, and they would also get to show some variety, and the winner would be the group of coins that's most impressive.

Who could possibly be the judges in such a beauty contest? That's my main question.

Exactly. That's the point I was trying to make earlier. My comments are entirely tongue-in-cheek. The situation would be analagous to asking classical and jazz musicians to evaluate various pieces according to their perspectives - a definite case of apples and oranges.

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 9:07AM

I will continue to try to clarify...

One coin and one coin only would be selected by the respective teams to go head to head in that particular denominational category.

I think both forums could collectively vote with their individual posts as to the eventual winners or losers. Even without a clear cut winner in a category, I think the competition would be enjoyable, and the knowledge exchange (reasons for voting one way or another) would be very interesting.

I think the Light would have to be able to include all pattern coins, fantasy coins, etc. and that's fine with me.

cacheman · February 4, 2004 9:08AM

<< You can't play one country against 100. >>

Ajaan, you want to tell Dubya that? Thanks....

Great idea!! We bad!!!!

JohnZ · February 4, 2004 9:18AM

How about Seated half-dimes verses Guatemalan half-reales. Same dimensions, only the reales are .835 fine silver?

There's a great deal of variety in both series

coinkat · February 4, 2004 9:21AM

There seems to be alot of thoughts circulating here... Unfortunately, the challenge of grading as suggested by MrEureka would be difficult due to the difference in world grading standards. I can just see Lloyd grading a Victorian 1/2d and calling it unc with 40% lustre and MrEureka grading the same coin MS64 Red/Brown...

In terms of beauty, that is subjective and even all the more difficult to determine. I think there are some good thoughts...

1jester · February 4, 2004 9:22AM

John, I was also thinking of that 1/2 Real as a suitable candidate for a dime head to head.

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 9:40AM

How about Seated half-dimes verses Guatemalan half-reales.

Excellent suggestion-very good equivilent. We need more input of this kind and even if we come up with a large list, we can winnow it down.

The Guatemalan even mirrors the style of the seated dimes to some extent. The only thing that might limit a particular coin's inclusion as a type would be if none of our team members had one in sufficiently good condition.

Stork · February 4, 2004 10:09AM

If this did progress to a contest...how about a panel of judges drawn from those who enthusiastically collect Dark, Light and Grey?

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 10:15AM

Stork, what kind of criteria would you want the judges to use?

Stork · February 4, 2004 11:26AM

My short answer is eye-appeal. Maybe a little history thrown in on the side. Possibly that could fall under something like 'coolness factor' or 'points for coolness'. Those are pretty much the criteria I use

Of course, that is just my opinion, I'm sure others have their own ideas.

Fairlaneman · February 4, 2004 12:55PM

Someone mention dimes and likely examples to go up against them...

It would take some real doing to compete against this Merc both price wise and beauty wise. I will admit that the 1/2 Franc is a very pretty design and a worthy coin that could compete.

Ken

Askari · February 4, 2004 12:56PM

Hey, Jarrett, are you still lusting after my Goetz pattern?

An interesting idea, Laurent, although I'd rather spend my money on coins than gambling -- competition just for the fun of it would be more enjoyable to me. However, I think one of the problems with judging is that for the Litesiders, the grade is very much a part of the "beauty" -- and their grading isn't merely technical either. Furthermore, even two coins of the same type and identical grade may have quite different degrees of "appeal" -- which can depend, for instance, on whether one prefers "blast white" or toned (or what particular kind of toning). I think the reason we are all Darksiders is that we look at and appreciate coins from a slightly different angle than most of the Litesiders. JonZ's analogy about musicians is spot on. In any case, I'll have to mull on the idea some more.

cladking · February 4, 2004 1:45PM

US collectors would do well to keep grade out of the consideration anyway since
most world coins have been made to much more exacting standards for decades.
Even when the US mints made good coins they were only on par with European
standards.

hookedoncoins · February 4, 2004 1:47PM

<< Hey, Jarrett, are you still lusting after my Goetz pattern?

>>

Maybe

SYRACUSIAN · February 4, 2004 4:34PM

Hypothetically speaking, if it was a grading contest, (as some members thought in the beginning of this thread) we'd loose hands down.Who can compete with Cameron?

Of course it's not a grading contest and I have trouble to picture a jury that will agree on the "coolness" factor. Even so,I challenge you all to find me one non precious metal world coin that's better than the buffalo.

Good luck in finding it.

D

1jester · February 4, 2004 5:24PM

Fairlaneman, I'd say your Mercury dime beats the Swiss coin hands down.

And to agree with Syracusian, I'd also say that the US has had a few of the of the most beautiful designs in the world, ever. Those, in my opinion, would include the Standing Liberty Quarter, Walking Liberty Half, Mercury Dime, Buffalo Nickel, St. Gaudens Double Eagle, and perhaps the Indian Eagle and incuse Half Eagle and Quarter Eagles.

So naturally we'd have to disqualify those from the competition....

cladking · February 4, 2004 5:47PM

<< Even so,I challenge you all to find me one non precious metal world coin that's better than the buffalo.

Good luck in finding it.

D >>

The buffalo sets a high standard but hardly an insurmountable one. There are a few dozen I'd rate
more highly in most categories. How about the Fijian 50C km-36? Or the Guadeloupe 1 F km-46?
Even the old British pennies like km-693 should beat it in many eyes.

I like the Ghana 2S's, and Kenyan cu/ni's without all the mottos on them.

It's really a matter of taste and I would like the buffalo much more with less wordiness even though
it is one of the least wordy of all US coins, especially later coins.

laurentyvan · February 4, 2004 10:36PM

Hmmmm... I guess you could call it a beauty contest. We do it all the time when we post coins.

It would take some real doing to compete against this Merc
I agree- a standout coin and the way you presented the two coins is exactly what I saw in my minds eye. The US team selects (for example) their best SLQ and the image is posted- world coin equivilents now compete with but not (yet) against the SLQ.

The best World coin should rise to the top and now we have the 2 "finalists". The SLQ and world coin are now open to general forum discussion on their relative merits.

I might suggest a return to the broader grades of yesteryear which would allow a winner based largely on eye appeal, design, history(including whether or not it circulated, it's relative position in numismatic importance, and other similar factors) , and not necessarily on a micro-grade, only observable under magnification.

If a consensus emerges, fine; if not, much has been learned and fun was had by all- a visual feast of learning, interaction, and communication.

I will PM Carol just to see if something like this should emerge whether or not they would be interested in the Instant Slab Award I proposed.

spoon · February 5, 2004 8:22AM

I think a competition between design elements would be fun and do-able. Judged on expression--which coin more effectively uses it's qualities to express the idea behind the element. Fasces, Liberty, Walking Liberty, Eagles, etc.. these are all elements that can be found on US and world coins.

This might edge more toward a critical/technical analysis of the artistic qualities of coins in general. But then we could take the results and send our suggestions to the Mint and maybe make a headline

Compa · February 5, 2004 8:42AM

<< Thread Title: If a coin competition was held between the World and US coin forum, who would win? >>

That's easy!

The Litesiders would win ... They would be exposed to the wonderful coins of the Darkside and be converted. That's winning

If a coin competition was held between the World and US coin forum, who would win?

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