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Liberty Seated “Too Many Types” Coin Syndrome. Are you a sufferer?
BillJones
Posts: 34,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
A couple of days ago I posted a picture of an 1873 with arrows half dollar that had a thick layer of artificial toning on it. At the time I wrote that I would discuss why I had purchased such “a beast” knowing full well what its problem was.
At the time I was finishing up my type set, and was starting to get a bit tired of the number of coin and the expense involved with completing all of the liberty seats coins as prescribed in some books and coin albums. For example here the list for the liberty seated half dollar types with some commentary.
1839 “No Drapery” – A partial year type coin that is hard to find nice and quite expensive. The price of true or imaged Mint State pieces can go half way to the moon!
1839 – 1865 “With Drapery” - Many years from which to choose, fairly common
1853 “Arrows and Rays” – One year type, fairly common in circulated grades, very scarce in strict Mint State and expensive.
1854 – 5 “Arrows at the Date” – Like the arrows and rays type, but a bit easier.
1866 – 1891 “With Motto” - Many years from which to choose, the most common Liberty Seated half dollar type.
1873-4 “Arrows at the Date” Low mintage, scarce in all grades, many coins were struck from worn dies, especially on the reverse, which made for unattractive coins, high prices.
You can pretty much repeat this list for the other seated coins from one extent to another.
By the time I got to the 1873-4 “With Arrows” type I had a BAD case of “Seated Liberty too many type coins Syndrome.” What was it with these coins with arrows at the date, anyway?
That led me to buy this AT puppy with lots of detail on it for less than $100. I did this (bought problem coins) with a few other seated type coins as well. In every case I paid less than $100 per coin, most of time a LOT less than $100 per coin. Today I’m gradually upgrading these “beasts” to pieces that range from AU-58 for MS-64.
Has anyone else suffered or is suffering with the “too many coins in the set” syndrome. If so let’s compare notes.
At the time I was finishing up my type set, and was starting to get a bit tired of the number of coin and the expense involved with completing all of the liberty seats coins as prescribed in some books and coin albums. For example here the list for the liberty seated half dollar types with some commentary.
1839 “No Drapery” – A partial year type coin that is hard to find nice and quite expensive. The price of true or imaged Mint State pieces can go half way to the moon!
1839 – 1865 “With Drapery” - Many years from which to choose, fairly common
1853 “Arrows and Rays” – One year type, fairly common in circulated grades, very scarce in strict Mint State and expensive.
1854 – 5 “Arrows at the Date” – Like the arrows and rays type, but a bit easier.
1866 – 1891 “With Motto” - Many years from which to choose, the most common Liberty Seated half dollar type.
1873-4 “Arrows at the Date” Low mintage, scarce in all grades, many coins were struck from worn dies, especially on the reverse, which made for unattractive coins, high prices.
You can pretty much repeat this list for the other seated coins from one extent to another.
By the time I got to the 1873-4 “With Arrows” type I had a BAD case of “Seated Liberty too many type coins Syndrome.” What was it with these coins with arrows at the date, anyway?
That led me to buy this AT puppy with lots of detail on it for less than $100. I did this (bought problem coins) with a few other seated type coins as well. In every case I paid less than $100 per coin, most of time a LOT less than $100 per coin. Today I’m gradually upgrading these “beasts” to pieces that range from AU-58 for MS-64.
Has anyone else suffered or is suffering with the “too many coins in the set” syndrome. If so let’s compare notes.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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The arrows on the 1873 coins are kind of a joke, the weight of the coin was very slightly increased in 1873 (and thus denoted by the arrows) but it was by such a small amount (0.03 grams for the quarters) that the old planchets probably could have been used and still have been within tolerance of the new planchet weight.
Not so with the arrows in 1853 which specified lowering the weight from 6.68 grams to 6.22 grams. This is heavy enough that you can feel the difference with your fingers if you handle a lot of raw coins.
If I were a type collector I would go for 4 coins:
With Arrows
With Arrows & Rays
With Motto (no arrows)
Without Motto (no arrows)
This is just for the quarters and halves. The others did not ever have rays, so you can cut it to three:
With Arrows
With Motto
Without Motto
And for the dollars there were never arrows, so you are down to two (w/ and w/o Motto).
I have way too many seated coins in my holdings and I'm not even trying for a type set other than the half dollars (bust, barber,seated).
Your point is well taken however. I do collect some better-dated date seated material but for the most part they are type coins. Even with the large number of different types, there is still a limited number of nice specimens that haven't been messed with.
I was impressed with the $15,000 that an 1875cc quarter brought in the Heritage LB sale (appeared once dipped) and the $20,000 that an MS66 1863 PCGS seated half brought. The 1850 half in MS65 brought $23,000. Judging on the price of the 1863 someone must have been thinking shot MS67 on that one or at least MS66++.
Just to show that quality means everything, the Pittman 1844-0 quarter in MS66 realized around $5500 once again. If the coin were a nice MS65 it would bring $7500 easy and an honest MS66 would be a $15,000+ coin.
roadrunner
I'll probably pick up a certified Proof 62 or 63 just to own one to look at because they are gorgeous coins. I am also going to try and get some PL's if I can pick them up for small premiums over standard frosty AU's.
I have some type coins in the SL Half, Quarter and Dime, but am not trying to get every variety for some of the same reason that you mentioned. I prefer the larger demonination 18th/19th Century silver type coins, so I focus on the Dollars and Halves.
I'll post some pix within the week if I get some time to take photos. Thanks for starting this thread...
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
As a rule, the slight variatons are actually relatively common if you go year by year. 1853 Arrows and Rays halves are dirt common, even in UNC. Sacrilege! It's only because of the now desireable one year type status that they bring any more money in higher grades. Same goes for the arrows coins. The most common seated quarter is the 1853 A&R and many were saved in UNC. The UNC 1839 no drapery halves are considered rarities, but based on their mintages, there are plenty of uncs to go around for date collectors. It is however the one year type status that propels the coin from "common" to" rare."
roadrunner
So yes, there are too many Seated Liberty types
Now when PCGS first came out with the Modern Type set in the Registry I entered all my 1997 stuff and bought some other interesting stuff to fill the holes like Merc, Buffalos, War Nicks etc, you know, real coins, then bought some Silver Ikes and JFKs and then got to thinking about how much it was going to cost to get all the diffent types of Ikes & JFKs needed to complete the set and said this is stupid buying coins I don't even like or care about so I said the hell with it and sold them all except for the 97 material.
So yeah I know what you're talking about BillJones.
Actually even the type set coins that are listed on the NGC Registry do constitute the “ultimate” type set. There are still other coins that you can add. For example the Pole to Cap large cent could include the Heads of 1793, ’94, ’95 and ’96. Every one of these coins is just as different as the No Drapery and Drapery half dollars are from each other. There are also at least three sub types within the Type One gold dollar label, and Peace Dollars with different numbers of rays on the reverse in addition to the high relief 1921.
BTW SDCollector, there are actually two types that fit into that Reeded Edge half hole in your album. There is a type of 1936-7 that reads "50 cents" on the reverse, and there is an 1838 type that reads "Half Dol" with a higher protective rim. Both are recognized by many type collectors.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Ray
Tom
Seated coins fascinated me because of the "type" I and II reverses and the "above wreath" and "below bow" mintmark placements.
For now I'm working on foreign coins, so I have regained some sanity.
Obscurum per obscurius