Half-point grading system being considered again?

Davalillo · January 30, 2004 5:49AM

This is what I hear from an excellent source.

The last time this was surfaced there was an overwhelming outcry against it by board members.

Can it really be that PSA would implement this despite this?

Dav

mrc32 · January 30, 2004 5:55AM

It must be the weekend

koby · January 30, 2004 5:57AM

This rumor cannot be true.

This is what the president of PSA said not long ago:

<< Thursday July 10, 2003 3:14 PM

There has been a great deal of discussion about PSA going to a half point grading system and, once and for all, I want to clear this up.

PSA IS NOT GOING TO A half POINT SYSTEM.

The fact that I asked for the opinions of collectors and dealers just shows that WE DO LISTEN to your concerns and we do not make decisions here without considering the implications. From the start, I have been against .5 grades but I wanted to hear from you too.

Some of you have been critical of the use of the word "Now" in my original statement. I believe that it is wrong to mislead people and guarantee things that I cannot guarantee. The point is that, 3 years from now, your own opinion may change and, if it does, PSA would want to satisfy the collecting community - that is what we are here for. So, in the end, it would be ridiculous for me or anyone to say "Never" because we don't know what the future will bring.

In addition, PSA knows that collectors drive and support our business more than anyone so why would we want to offend the very same people who support us most? We would have to be crazy to do it.

THAT'S WHY WE ARE NOT DOING IT.

Thanks for listening. There are those who will speculate and make ridiculous comments on the boards like "PSA is insulting us by even asking about it" and "It doesn't matter what Joe thinks because the powers that be want more money." I can't stop those people from refusing to listen and speculating but to most of you who have been very responsive and courteous - thank you - your voice matters and your point has been made.

End of story.

Take care,

Joe Orlando
PSA President >>

koby · January 30, 2004 5:59AM

There you have it. No change.

If you can't trust the president of PSA, who can you trust?

Davalillo · January 30, 2004 6:04AM

Last time it was the outcry from board members that killed the idea.

As I recall, it was about 98% against.

Its a rumor--but its a good rumor and they make the most interesting threads.

boggs301012 · January 30, 2004 6:05AM

I tell you guys what I will call Joe and ask . He always say call or write. And he doesnt seem to care for rumors. BRB

James

boggs301012 · January 30, 2004 6:13AM

I attmepted to call and leave a VM he has the shortest VM about 7 to 10 seconds in length is all you can leave. I hope he has enuff info.

Joe Increase you r recording lenght to 30 seconds or so.

james

scottsusor · January 30, 2004 6:15AM

Four blades? Where will it stop?

As somebody who is relatively new to the PSA world, I'd like to offer this perspective. I wasn't around for the previous discussions and debates on a half-point system vs. the current full-point system. However, it seems to me that a half-point system for vintage cards (i.e. pre-1973) is virtually a must at this point.

Why? Two reasons. One is supply of high-grade vintage cards. Its getting lower and lower all the time. What that means is that fewer and fewer cards will be submitted for grading due simply to submitters feeling that the cards they CAN get will not get an 8 or higher. That will start a downward spiral on interest in collecting graded vintage cards because if you can't find 'em, you can't collect 'em.

Reason two, and somewhat related to reason one, is that the standards for 8's, 9's and 10's in vintage cards has made it virtually impossible to a sufficient number of 9's (you can pretty much forget getting 10's in these) to make submissions profitable. Again, fewer submissions, supply dwindles, and interest in collecting spirals downward because if you can't find 'em, you can't collect 'em.

A half-point system -- especially the 7.5 and 8.5 grades -- would open up a whole new level of set building -- and renewed interest in collecting graded cards.

Maybe I'm out in left field, but that's how I'm seeing it.

Scott

Davalillo · January 30, 2004 6:20AM

Scott,

The way I see it is 8s lose value. Holders of psa cards are forced to resubmit their 8s to try to get 8.5s.

For me 12,000 psa 8s X 5 equals $60.000 in grading fees.

Dav

thejam · January 30, 2004 6:34AM

half pt grading would undermine collectors, like me, trying to collect entire year in one grade (i know, collecting holder and not the card); not all of us have philosophy to collect the best conceivable set; besides, PSA does not need half pt for add'l submissions because people already crack 7s for chance at 8 and 8s for chance at 9.

scottsusor · January 30, 2004 6:42AM

Dav,

I understand exactly what you're saying. It would indeed run afoul of many existing collectors and set builders where 8 has become the obvious separation point between a high-grade card and garbage.

But, if PSA is to maintain its strong top-level position among grading companies, don't you think that this may be more of a reputation issue for them than anything related to the feelings of existing owners of 8's (or 9's, for that matter)?

Again, I'm relatively new to the PSA world, but from a purely independent perspective, if PSA were to allow existing graded card owners to influence their decision on something like this, wouldn't it at least APPEAR to be for the wrong reason? And in the long run, wouldn't that harm PSA's reputation more than the change to using half-grades itself?

Scott

Davalillo · January 30, 2004 6:47AM

Scott,

No--I think it would create such anger and resentment among owners of psa 8 cards(who represent a very important constituency for psa) that it would be a disaster for psa.

I also think you are being a bit extreme in saying that 8 is the separation point between a high-grade card and garbage--especially for vintage and semi-vintage cards(1969 and earlier).

Dav

onegaucho · January 30, 2004 6:52AM

Half point system would turn me away from PSA.

RayBShotz · January 30, 2004 7:18AM

I am strongly against the half point system as I was a number of months ago when this was first discussed. I dont want to resubmit; dont want a market place in transition (for years) as collectors and dealers scramble on this, and believe in the long run that PSA gains nothing.
They are so far ahead of all the other grading companies in terms of reputation and we have come to love and live with the existing scale and its simplicity. Dont ruin the best thing going for the hobby. Half points would turn the card hobby world upside down.
Thanks PSA for "No Half Point Grades!"
RayB69Topps

Stump · January 30, 2004 7:22AM

I will make my opinion short and unsweet. PSA gos to half grades I take my ball and go home. I would be done.

Dave Jacobs

ZodiacMindwarp · January 30, 2004 7:23AM

A half point system would have been a good idea had it been implemented from the beginning. Based on the number of submissions already graded, I think that switching to that format now would be very detrimental to the reputation that PSA has earned.

jimrupprecht · January 30, 2004 7:39AM

Personally, half-point grading makes me a GAI customer ESPECIALLY if there isn't a new, more secure holder design.

Just my 2 cents.

-
JR

jrinck · January 30, 2004 7:54AM

Why bother at this point, as all the "this is a high end 8" discussions will simply be transformed into "this is a high end 8.5" discussions.

You will still have people who try to hype the grade, and those who point out that their current "7s", "8s", and "9s" will become worth less than now are 100% correct.

As an example, when you were in school, could you get higher than a 4.0 GPA? Not in my school. So I worked my butt off and proudly tell people of my 4.0 GPA. Then the youngsters pipe in and belittle me because they were/are 4.10. We both were/are equal students, but now I look like the chump in comparison simply because of the grading system. That's not fair, and I somewhat resent it. Now, in order for me to get a 4.10 I have to go through all those years of school again. I'll learn the same stuff and it will no doubt cost me more money. All this just to level the playing field that never should have been unleveled in the first place.

alohaet · January 30, 2004 8:03AM

Would a PSA 8.5 OC be worth more than a straight PSA 8 NQ? I don't care for the 1/2 point system. As a guy who collects mostly PSA 8's I would feel slighted. As Davalillo said the bulk of people are weighted heavily in PSA 8's. My vote is NO.

Ed

CW · January 30, 2004 8:06AM

ZodiacMindwarp--

I could not have said it better myself.

boggs301012 · January 30, 2004 8:09AM

PSA can raise fees ...lower fees

make a membership mandatory

Ding my cards

Scratch my holders

Miss lable the flips

Take forever to return my cards

I have been thru it all.

I wont go thru half point grades. I have 2 orders there now and am getting a 3rd ready. I would ask for a refund on the 2 at PSA and submitt the 3rd elsewere. SO if the are pondering this do what you want.

James

JoeOrlando · January 30, 2004 8:39AM

Here is another example of a rumor that is way out of control because "some people" on the boards try to stir up drama for no good reason.

PSA, while we have no plans to use a .5 system in cards or tickets - we are always asking the collecting community what they do like or want - it would be irresponsible of PSA not to explore new services, projects or (in this case) changes.

We will probably ask the question "Do you want us to change to a .5 system?" every once in a while to make sure we are providing the service that collectors want.

This rumor may have started because we do plan on using a .5 system in the grading of single signed balls - a new service that we are working on right now. It seems to make sense there because we will be combining the grade of the ball and the autograph together in some fashion.

One more note: Jim, you made the comment (basically) that PSA was going to use a .5 system earlier but didn't due to the outcry by the board users.

First of all, PSA was never going to do it - all we did was ask people if THEY wanted us to. That's altogether different.

Second, I really do appreciate all the board members and the participation - the feedback is great - but Jim, honestly, don't you realize that the board probably makes up less than 1% of PSA's customer base? I do value the feedback - always - but I just want to make sure you have some understanding of the reality here. PSA is much, much bigger than the boards.

Thanks for listening everyone --things are really exciting right now at PSA. We are growing in new areas of service and continuing to enforce our brand name to the masses.

I may ask questions now and then but that doesn't mean there are plans to change anything.

If it isn't broke - don't fix it - you know how the saying goes.

Take care,

Joe

Mantlefan · January 30, 2004 8:50AM

Thanks Joe. It does seem like it's every few months when "some people" decide to start rumors, gossip and innuendo about PSA half point grading, PSA changing holders, graders leaving PSA etc. Get a life!

mrc32 · January 30, 2004 8:52AM

Its the weekend. Someone always has to stir the pot.....

FB · January 30, 2004 9:02AM

Always enjoy a little spirited conversation!!!

Thanks Jim for raising it!

Thanks Joe for squashing it!

But, if PSA WAS considering changing the grading system - lets not screw around...
Lets go RIGHT to the 100 point system!!!!

This way... we'll here conversations like "Sure, its only an 85, but 6 months ago this baby would have gotten an 88 easy!!!" or how bout "Its may only be an 89, but is has the eye appeal of a 93!"

mrc32 · January 30, 2004 9:07AM

Frank-
How about-- "It Actually looks more like an 88.5"

AlanAllen · January 30, 2004 9:17AM

Well mark me in as one of the 2% who supports the idea. I understand that there would be a painful period of adjustment, but in the end we'd have a better system. There is just too much variance within certain grades to make them interchangable, which ideally all cards the same grade should be. BTW, my support is contingent upon a new holder and a low-cost bulk re-evaluation re-slab program.

Joe

CW · January 30, 2004 9:24AM

Joe said:

> We will probably ask the question "Do you want us to change to a .5
> system?" every once in a while to make sure we are providing the
> service that collectors want.

Changing to a .5 system would destroy the foundation of PSA's success:
consistency. The 6,000,000+ PSA slabs already in the marketplace and
new holders with a half-point scale would create this inconsistency.
I don't understand why you would even invite these types of suggestions.
Asking for customer feedback is great, but asking for trouble could
lead to disaster.

I realize that sometimes these rumors get blown out of proportion, but
why even ask the question?

thejam · January 30, 2004 9:56AM

I fully agree with thejam

grilloj39 · January 30, 2004 10:03AM

PSA is "between a rock and a hard place" on this one...the half point system is definitely the most accurate grading scale, but implementing this scale would alienate many customers who feel they would have to re-submit hundreds or thousands of cards again and feel that their collections have devalued somewhat.

If PSA is putting out "feelers" for this idea, they should have implemented the half point system years ago. Probably the best thing to do is to leave the system as is...at least it is unique as compared to GAI, SGC, and BVG. I just can't see PSA implementing this now at the expense (monetary expense) of its loyal customer base.

The devotion and adamant support they provide to PSA should be returned by PSA management. Let this one go...........

boggs301012 · January 30, 2004 10:19AM

This is what I hear from an excellent source.

PSA, while we have no plans to use a .5 system in cards or tickets - we are always asking the collecting community what they do like or want - it would be irresponsible of PSA not to explore new services, projects or (in this case) changes.

Do you think the source is still good?

James

GoSoxBoSox · January 30, 2004 10:24AM

It's moronic to have this conversation. Anybody and everybody with half a brain knows a move like that would create a riot and crumble the company.

Can we talk about something that matters?

qualitycards · January 30, 2004 10:50AM

I also fully agree w/ thejam...jay

1420sports · January 30, 2004 11:49AM

Well mark me in as one of the 2% who supports the idea. I understand that there would be a painful period of adjustment, but in the end we'd have a better system. There is just too much variance within certain grades to make them interchangable, which ideally all cards the same grade should be. BTW, my support is contingent upon a new holder and a low-cost bulk re-evaluation re-slab program.

Direct and to the point Joe, and I agree 100%. I would like to see the half point grading system. The new PSA cards would have a better holder and new label to differentiate the two grading scales.

jackstraw · January 30, 2004 11:49AM

we could talk about the new and improved holders?

Davalillo · January 30, 2004 12:17PM

Joe,

Your comments are pretty demeaning to the people on the boards.

First, when you say that people on the boards are less than 1% of your customer base you really don't know. I just submitted 1000 cards and 3 months ago submitted 2500 but they were through other dealers so you are not counting these. Second, we are the people who buy the graded psa cards and guess what--without buyers there is no need to grade.

I say what I hear from good sources--I still think there is something to it. Some comes from people who work at psa.

How about talking honestly about WIWAG?

How about one grader now examining cards with another only looking at them once they are graded--"one and out" so to speak.

Personally I think PSA has lost some market share to GAI recently due to the exemplar program.

I'm not stirring up drama for no good reason. I am saying what I hear from good sources and saying things that I think are issues that need to be addressed.

For those of you who care about the WIWAG scandal and what is going on read what Greg has to say on the SGC message boards(it is very interesting). How about letting Greg(BOTN) back on the boards--he is the most interesting voice in the hobby today.

Dav

Buckwheat · January 30, 2004 12:27PM

It appears that PSA has already gone to a .5 scale???

1961 Topps #439 Regan PSA 8.5 Rare NR

I wish I could get this guy to grade my cards.

mariner · January 30, 2004 1:02PM

Yea, I sent this guy an email earlier tonight about this Regan card. I told him that he didn't have a clue as to what he was doing. He sent me some hateful emails right back. I think he is a little off his rocker.

Vargha · January 30, 2004 1:28PM

Jim -- Please link the threads -- thanks.

sixdart · January 30, 2004 1:36PM

Well mark me in as one of the 2% who supports the idea. I understand that there would be a painful period of adjustment, but in the end we'd have a better system. There is just too much variance within certain grades to make them interchangable, which ideally all cards the same grade should be. BTW, my support is contingent upon a new holder and a low-cost bulk re-evaluation re-slab program.

- Joe (AlanAllen)

Direct and to the point Joe, and I agree 100%. I would like to see the half point grading system. The new PSA cards would have a better holder and new label to differentiate the two grading scales.

- 1420sports

I agree as well.

How about talking honestly about WIWAG?

- Jim (Davalillo)

Was this ever clarified or explained by PSA? And, is a new holder being considered because of how they were able to do what they did?

BugOnTheRug · January 30, 2004 4:21PM

Joe.

<< First of all, PSA was never going to do it - all we did was ask people if THEY wanted us to. That's altogether different. >>

Just a bit confusing. Why even bother asking the question if we're only 1% of the customer base?

Jim.

<< I'm not stirring up drama for no good reason. I am saying what I hear from good sources and saying things that I think are issues that need to be addressed. >>

You have a most interesting way of engaging dialog. Gotta tell ya, the word 'source' gets a little tiring............just ask the CIA on WMD. One would think as well as you know PSA that direct, discrete conversation would be the best approach to answering your concerns. Maybe you've already have done this and are not satified with the response. Maybe you're a freedom fighter.........I dunno.

BOTR

toppsgun · January 30, 2004 7:46PM

Can we all just ignore Jim Crandall (Davalillo)? What a spoiled sport little brat that guy is!

There are all kinds of collectors in this hobby. I put them in basically two classes:

1) Collectors who enjoy the hobby and do the best they can to collect what they like.
2) Investors who turn a piece of cardboard into a buck every now and then.

Jim Crandall (Davalillo) is lost somewhere between 1) and 2) because he has dropped so much coin on grading fees and has only an average 7.87 GPA and a 96% completion rate to show for it. He has nothing better to do than spew vile hatred and innuendo and spread unfounded rumors to get a rise out of people. Same as Greg (BOTN) and Wentz (BMW).

Good call, BTW, to the one who compared the CIA/WMD "source".

Dav, if you'd shut your pie hole and spend your energy on finding those low pop cards that frustrate you so, you'd come out ahead....maybe in 40 years, but you'd be ahead.

Grow up!

Davalillo · January 30, 2004 8:44PM

The last comment shows what an idiot this last person is.

Addressing the earlier question, no psa has never provided any details on how many cards are altered by WIWAG and how exactly altering them Greg has asked the right questions and I won't repeat this.

7.87 average rating with 96% complete is not too bad for the number of sets I collect. The sets you collect are simple in psa 8--I am glad to see you finally got one finished. Just because you are so obsessed with what I do, I will send you a personal e-mail for each set I complete 1-100. He also cannot stand it as he sees me march steadily but inexorably to my goal, helped by the vast majority of collectors on this board.

Thanks again to all the great collectors on the boards.

toppsgun · January 30, 2004 8:47PM

Davalillo said, "I will send you a personal e-mail for each set I complete 1-100."

I'm still waiting on that first email.

What is it with you, Jim? Are you ticked off because only 3 or 4 people took you up on the offer last summer to tour your "Card Museum" in conjunction with the National in Atlantic City?

Davalillo · January 30, 2004 9:34PM

I am happy to send you an e-mail with all mt completed sets in psa 8 if you provide your e-mail address and for no charge you can count with me until I get to 100.

Yes --three people came to see the collection from Atlantic City which is two and a half hours away. Several have come since...and your point is?

Whoops, I congratulated you on your first complete set--my bad--even that one is not complete--keep trying, you'll get one done soon although I doubt anyone would want to sell to you.

toppsgun · January 30, 2004 10:23PM

Davalillo asked, "and your point is?"

It wasn't a point, Jim. It was a question. I think you answered it.

He also said, "Whoops, I congratulated you on your first complete set--my bad--even that one is not complete"

Again, your "sources" are wrong. I have quite a few completed sets (that's 100%). Maybe your sources have a little more detective work to do.

Davalillo · January 30, 2004 11:03PM

I have never spoke with "my sources" about your sets. No one would care.

Given your preoccupation with my sets though I will keep you apprised as I complete sets in 8.

ZodiacMindwarp · January 30, 2004 11:16PM

My Dad can beat up your Dad.

schr1st · January 30, 2004 11:18PM

Here is a link to the SGC thread. I haven't given up on the discussion, just resting after having gon3 12 rounds with both Greg and Mike. BTW, it was due to a comment made on that thread, plus a subsequent post by Mike about card trimmers that got him banned from their boards. Good thing/Bad thing, you decide.

Basilone · January 30, 2004 11:45PM

<< We will probably ask the question "Do you want us to change to a .5 system?" every once in a while to make sure we are providing the service that collectors want. >>

How come this question has never been posed officially on the board by PSA? Who is asked for their feedback....collectors, dealers, who?

<< Second, I really do appreciate all the board members and the participation - the feedback is great - but Jim, honestly, don't you realize that the board probably makes up less than 1% of PSA's customer base? >>

Maybe so...but this "1% customer base" seems to do a pretty good job supporting the value of PSA graded cards in the open market.

Vargha · January 31, 2004 1:08AM

Thanks for the link, Sean.

Half-point grading system being considered again?

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