Very interesting read from a major wholesaler....
Boom
Posts: 10,165 ✭
The following are some comments made by a major coin wholesaler in California regarding two very pertinent topics to me and perhaps the rest of you. This IS America and the gentleman, who has been in business a long, long time-since the mid seventies - raises some interesting points in regards to an email I sent that accompanied a rather sizeable order- read with an open mind and draw your own conclusions....I stressed the point that I intended to submit these coins to PCGS and have no desire to get hung with thousands of dollars in coins that would not grade. I also advised him that I could pay him out of my Premier Busainess account with Paypal, at no cost to him what-so-ever.The following is his very definite reply- for your perusal and in the earnest search for knowledge, I share the following with you all.....for what it's worth! ."We have had nothing but trouble with PayPal as our transactions total several hundred thousand dollars per month. PayPal was only willing to give us an initial limit of $10,000 per month, but did not intitally inform us of that. The result was that they froze $43,000 in customer payments until "further varfication" which took them months. Needless to say, we cancelled PayPal and will not have anything to do with them. We have heard similar horror stories from other dealers. We have the two coins, each with original white mint bloom, and will set these aside for you provided you can send a check or money order as our other 50,000+ customers do. These are both graded by www.accgs.org . If you go to their site, and compare pictures side by side, you will notice that they grade more accurately than PCGS, although they are not as well known. We will not longer use PCGS for the following reasons detailed below, and more:"
The following recent e-mail from one of our long-time customers may help to explain why:
<<In the May 26, 2003 issue of Coin World, their editorial staff reports on an investigation that they conducted with the most popular grading services. This was an elaborate and scientific blind test in which the same 15 coins were submitted to all eight of the major grading services, including PCGS, ANACS and NGC during 2002 and 2003. Eleven months were required to complete the test as each coin was sent to each of the eight services. No single coin was graded the same by all eight services. One coin which should have been the easiest to grade, a 1943 Walking Liberty Half Dollar, garnered grades ranging from AU 58 to MS 65 and many other grades in-between, a seven-point spread !! In one case PCGS graded a 1901-O dollar as MS 61 that PCI a less popular and less expensive service, graded as AU 58. Effectively, PCGS was therefore claiming the coin to be worth twice as much as one of it's competitors, based on it's final grade value. In another case, PCGS graded a 1893-CC $5 Liberty as XF 45, where ACG graded the same coin as VF 35 and SEGS stated that the coin had been cleaned. PCGS graded it without noting that it had ever been cleaned. In yet another case, PCGS graded an 1853 Gold Dollar as AU 55 whereas ACG would not give it a grade, noting that it had been "cleaned, surfaces brushed". Either PCGS obviously cannot tell sometimes when a coin has been cleaned or not, or they are showing favoritism, or they just don't mention it because they would rather collect the grading fees. Further evidence of all of this was brought to bear a couple of years ago when they graded the Brother Jonathan shipwrecked coins, most of which had been cleaned. Although PCGS and other services claim that they do not know who owns coins that are submitted, this cannot be true in many cases concerning coins of great rarity and significant collections or hoards. In many cases such as the Brother Jonathan find, they knew who owned the coins. To many dealers and collectors we've spoken with, the grading on many of the PCGS and other services appear inconsistent when compared side by side at various shows. For this reason and more, we should all encourage collectors to learn to grade for themselves, and not spend needless time and money on expensive grading services, which are loosing their credibility. For further information, see the editorial page at www.bhcoinclub.org near the bottom of the page , directly linked at http://www.bhcoinclub.org/editorials.htm and scroll down. >>
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The following recent e-mail from one of our long-time customers may help to explain why:
<<In the May 26, 2003 issue of Coin World, their editorial staff reports on an investigation that they conducted with the most popular grading services. This was an elaborate and scientific blind test in which the same 15 coins were submitted to all eight of the major grading services, including PCGS, ANACS and NGC during 2002 and 2003. Eleven months were required to complete the test as each coin was sent to each of the eight services. No single coin was graded the same by all eight services. One coin which should have been the easiest to grade, a 1943 Walking Liberty Half Dollar, garnered grades ranging from AU 58 to MS 65 and many other grades in-between, a seven-point spread !! In one case PCGS graded a 1901-O dollar as MS 61 that PCI a less popular and less expensive service, graded as AU 58. Effectively, PCGS was therefore claiming the coin to be worth twice as much as one of it's competitors, based on it's final grade value. In another case, PCGS graded a 1893-CC $5 Liberty as XF 45, where ACG graded the same coin as VF 35 and SEGS stated that the coin had been cleaned. PCGS graded it without noting that it had ever been cleaned. In yet another case, PCGS graded an 1853 Gold Dollar as AU 55 whereas ACG would not give it a grade, noting that it had been "cleaned, surfaces brushed". Either PCGS obviously cannot tell sometimes when a coin has been cleaned or not, or they are showing favoritism, or they just don't mention it because they would rather collect the grading fees. Further evidence of all of this was brought to bear a couple of years ago when they graded the Brother Jonathan shipwrecked coins, most of which had been cleaned. Although PCGS and other services claim that they do not know who owns coins that are submitted, this cannot be true in many cases concerning coins of great rarity and significant collections or hoards. In many cases such as the Brother Jonathan find, they knew who owned the coins. To many dealers and collectors we've spoken with, the grading on many of the PCGS and other services appear inconsistent when compared side by side at various shows. For this reason and more, we should all encourage collectors to learn to grade for themselves, and not spend needless time and money on expensive grading services, which are loosing their credibility. For further information, see the editorial page at www.bhcoinclub.org near the bottom of the page , directly linked at http://www.bhcoinclub.org/editorials.htm and scroll down. >>
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Comments
As for the comparison... I don't submit, but have heard that PCGS is sometimes hit or miss... I agree with newsman that it is difficult to get a good idea of grading services by 15 coins.
<< <i>...Either PCGS obviously cannot tell sometimes when a coin has been cleaned or not, or they are showing favoritism, or they just don't mention it because they would rather collect the grading fees. >>
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I will give the questionable grammar the benefit of the doubt, but this major wholesaler apparently doesn't know that PCGS will charge exactly as much for a body bag as they will for a 69 dcam... and although it's good to hear stories about paypal, etc. without actually having to live through a nightmare, i do question this firm's base knowledge of the grading industry, at the very least.
z
<< <i>Screw ACG!
I agree but he was talking about ACCGS American Coin Club Grading Service.
Whether they're a better grading service or not I don't know.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
the thing that mystifies me is why anyone would use acronyms (ACCG) so similar to ACG when confusion with ACG could NOT be be construed as a good thing??????
Regarding paypal, a friend of mine works in a pawn shop and recently starting selling their stuff on ebay and paypal did freeze their account with about $5,000 in it. I think it took about a month or two to get it back.
"as our other 50,000+ customers do"
by the best in the bussiness PCGS. While any service composed of humans is prone to some
error, they stand ready to make good on their mistakes. This new company may or may not stand the test
of time, we will have to observe them and see.
Camelot
K S
They did the same thing to me when someone sent me over 10k
adrian
so they can argue amongst themselves endlessly about what a coin truly grades, thus again reducing economic activity in the coin realm, and so that dealers can once again make margins of 40 to 50 percent, taking even more advantage of ignorant people, like "the good ole days..."
Also, the guy who said this is a proponent of naked living, uncooked foods and the Congresses newly proposed "Americans with no Abilities Act" which seeks to level the employment playing field for people in vegitative states ("think of them as natural air humidifiers...")
Adrian, I am glad you are back!
Fascinating. The major wholesaler want's you to send a moneyorder and they don't use any of the recognized TPG's. Well, you have to trust somebody. It might as well be the seller.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Here's an interesting read from someone who supposedley is a PP whisteblower from paypalsucks.com
thread from paypalsucks.com
Grading coins and choosing who grades them is each persons' individual choice. As with any other subject, there will always be more than one opinion. Life is only interesting because we are not clones.
ACCGS=Beverly Hills Coin Club=www.collectorsinternet.com=put the money back in your pocket then place your right leg in front of your left leg. Repeat left to right this time. Continue doing this in rapid succession until you are sufficiently far away as to not come in contact with any incidental slime that may be spewing from that dealer's mouth.
<< <i>"we should all encourage collectors to learn to grade for themselves, and not spend needless time and money on expensive grading services, which are loosing their credibility. "...
so they can argue amongst themselves endlessly about what a coin truly grades, thus again reducing economic activity in the coin realm, and so that dealers can once again make margins of 40 to 50 percent, taking even more advantage of ignorant people, like "the good ole days..."
Also, the guy who said this is a proponent of naked living, uncooked foods and the Congresses newly proposed "Americans with no Abilities Act" which seeks to level the employment playing field for people in vegitative states ("think of them as natural air humidifiers...") >>
Adrian
You either have a "wicked wit" or you are a "wicked snake"!
BTW - what could possibly be wrong with "naked living'? some of life's great pleasures occur "naked"
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Trusting a seller is probably the most single dangerous thing you can do, other than leaving your car running and your briefcase on the passenger seat with a copy of Coin World on top while you run into Piggly Wiggly to take a leak. >>
I think it's "wicked wit"
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>These are both graded by www.accgs.org . If you go to their site, and compare pictures side by side, you will notice that they grade more accurately than PCGS >>
Bwuahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
That phony comparison done with obviously edited images? I repeat:
Bwuahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
This "major wholesaler" is an idiot.
Russ, NCNE
Am I the only person who thought it funny that this guy claims to have over 50,000 customers? Are there that many coin buyers (excluding U.S. mint purchases) in the U.S.?
But, aside from that, his account of PayPal is spot on. I had my acct "restricted" as any of you regular readers know.
I have no Paypal acct. I would like to use it again but only for DINKY amounts. Little peedinkle transactions on old toys or something, but it would be too hard to explain to COIN customers why I won't take it so the acct stays closed.
I would imagine the interest that paypal accumulates on their enormous volume would be a business in itself. It should be a LOT of money. Even chintzy money market accts earn $1500 per year on a $100,000 balance.
My suspicion is that my account may have been restricted ....BECAUSE....it was my habit to draw the money out as soon as it was in. I even set up a special bank acct for Paypal only so they would have no access to my main account.
I do not trust paypal at all.
<< <i>My suspicion is that my account may have been restricted ....BECAUSE....it was my habit to draw the money out as soon as it was in. >>
Not likely. I've been doing the same thing since day one, and I've had several months where that amount was well in to the high four figures.
Russ, NCNE
I'm sure you'll have to form your own opinion. Coast to Coast coins still offers Gem BU 32-D Washingtons at $695. They send out a nice color catalog once a month. Lots of board members (myself included) have tried a few of their coins. They have a similar guarantee. Fortunately, I recognized both of the 32-D's they sent me as whizzed and got a refund. Last month, their ANA membership was finally revoked. There are lots of places where a man can buy a "too good to be true" price and a good description. Good luck.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor