New Collector Seeking Sage Advice About Morgans
msch1man
Posts: 809 ✭✭✭✭
I'm totally new to coins (I guess I'm a newbie!) and have spent the last couple of months doing all the research that I could on US coins (books, message boards, etc.). After thumbing through just my first book on US coins, it was obvious to me that I wanted to collect Morgans...I don't know what it is, they just have something that makes them desireable. I look at this as a lifelong hobby, so I'm interested in putting together a full date/mintmark set. In looking through price records, it looks like all but about 20 or so coins are within my budget in some level of uncirculated cond. to accumulate over several years (the rest I'll acquire in circulated condition and upgrade later should my finances allow it). With collecting just about anything, I think the best thing to do as a beginner is to seek out the advice of people who have been collectors for some time now. So, any words of wisdom to a beginner looking to put together a full date/mintmark set of Morgans?
One other thing...I really don't have any frame of reference because I'm new and haven't followed coin prices in the past, but I get the impression that morgans (and the coin market in general) have gone up in price considerably over the past year or so. I'm not looking at this as an investment (I want to start a collection, not a portfolio), but I'm also not made of money and want to make intelligent purchases. So, I'm curious...Do you feel morgans are currently overvalued as a whole or is some segment of morgans (say common dates) overvalued more than another? Also, given the current market for Morgans, would it currently make more sense to save up and try to get the rarer (and more expensive) dates first, or start with the common dates and work my way up?
Sorry to ramble and thank you in advance for any and all advice.
One other thing...I really don't have any frame of reference because I'm new and haven't followed coin prices in the past, but I get the impression that morgans (and the coin market in general) have gone up in price considerably over the past year or so. I'm not looking at this as an investment (I want to start a collection, not a portfolio), but I'm also not made of money and want to make intelligent purchases. So, I'm curious...Do you feel morgans are currently overvalued as a whole or is some segment of morgans (say common dates) overvalued more than another? Also, given the current market for Morgans, would it currently make more sense to save up and try to get the rarer (and more expensive) dates first, or start with the common dates and work my way up?
Sorry to ramble and thank you in advance for any and all advice.
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While admittedly not a Morgan collector,I have picked up a few things.There are many Morgans in MS grade that can be picked up for a reasonable price.The shear # of them saved allows for that.You seem to be starting off on the right foot.By checking prices realized,you can determine fair prices.The next is to learn to grade them,or don't buy raw coins.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
You will find quite a few helpful and knowledgable people here.
I don't know too much about Morgans, but there are several here who do. I'll leave any details up to them.
Welcome to the boards!
Tom
would your set look nice w/ 50 shiny, brilliant coins mingled in w/ 20 low-grade circ's? i think we can agree the answer is, probably not (actually i can tell you from experience, definitely NOT).
knowing you have no hope of ever completing a unc set, why would you want end up w/ an intermingling of shiny unc's w/ non-shiny circs?
so the suggestion i have for you is, start w/ something attainable & that i guarantee you will get more enjoyment out of - a consistent set of CIRCULATED morgan dollars, say vf condition. if you were collecting jeff-nicks, i'd say by all means, go for uncs, you can put together the whole album for $200. but why get frustrated? put together a circ'd set of MATCHING morgan dollars.
you wanted sage advice, i just gave you the best advice you'll ever get on putting together a set of morgans, at least from where it sounds like your collecting from.
K S
K S
What follows is just one person's opinion.
What's in your favor is that they are one of the easiest coins to grade in MS. That's where I would start - learn to grade them. Learn the fundamentals of grading (strike, luster, surface marks, toning, eye appeal), learn what the "prime focal areas" are (these are the areas of the coin which are most important to the grade, like the cheek), then look at as many Morgans as you can. You can't learn to grade without looking at lots of coins. Go to coin shows and look at Morgans in top-tier (PCGS, NGC, ANACS) grading service holders so you can learn what each grade should look like.
Buy the Van Allen-Mallis book on Morgan and Peace Dollars. If you can, get to know a dealer who might be willing to help you learn.
If you want to buy coins while learning, stick to lower-priced coins, so if you overpay it won't kill you. I would normally say to buy the key dates first, but not if you don't know what you are buying (unless you really know your dealer). Once you are comfortable, buy the key dates because they seem to just keep going up and up.
Don't overpay for toning. I'm not slamming toning, but it's easy to pay too much, as one board member found out a while ago. It drove him out of collecting once he found out he overpaid greatly for flashy toned Morgans. Toning is nice, but the super prices are for those who are very comfortable with knowing if a coin is truly great toning, or just nice toning.
To me the hard part is knowing what to pay. You see a coin you need, you believe it's graded fairly, but the price seems very high. You've seen threads here that say the Greysheet is not useful for certain coins. I don't know the answer to that problem because it takes a lot of work to stay current with the market. If I had unlimited funds, I'd just buy it. But I don't have unlimited funds, and if I don't know whether a coin priced at 2x bid is fair, then I pass. Others have done very, very well in buying coins for prices that are way above ask. They are smarter than me, because they know which coins are worth it. I wish I did.
How do you intend to acquire your coins? How long do you expect to take to complete your set?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Morgans are one of the few 19th century series in which you can buy nice uncirculated coins at prices most people can afford. You might want to take Dave Bowers advice and set a price point within your budget and buy coins in the highest grade at that price point For example, if your price point is $300, you should be able to buy common dates in grades MS 65-66; the next tier of coins at that price might be in grades MS 63-64, and so forth.
Here are a few rules to go by. Break them at your peril.
First, rule--Buy only PCGS and NGC slabbed coins. NO EXCEPTIONS!
If you are new to coins and Morgans, it means that you do not know how to grade coins properly and how to tell if a coin has been cleaned, whizzed, thumbed or otherwise messed with. Nor can you spot a counterfeit. Do not feel embarassed--many collectors who have been at it for years do not posess these skills either.
If you buy raw coins or coins graded by any company other than PCGS or NGC you are almost certain to buy overgraded coins or coins that have been improperly cleaned or suffer from other problems. Some people here trust ANACS graded coins. I do not trust ANACS grades to the same extent as PCGS or NGC, and while there are some nice coins in ANACS holders there are a lot of unattractively toned and scruffy ones too.
Second rule--Do not buy coins at auction, that includes both ebay and major auction houses. You will pay too much and will wind up with low-end for the grade coins that no one else wants. I have often seen coins sell on ebay for more than the list price of the dealer selling them. Other dealers on this forum will tell you that they often see coins sell at major auctions for more than they can be purchased for on the bourse floor. Once you become seasoned in collecting you can venture into auctions.
Third--Look at lots of coins before you buy any. Go to shows, local or national and develop an "eye" for coins at the grade levels you will be buying. Do not be afraid to look at dozens of coins before you buy your first coin.
Four--Love it or leave it. Morgans, even the rare dates, are a dime a dozen. Most dealers have plenty in inventory. This allows you to be very picky. If you do not love a coin at first sight, do not buy it. A nicer one will come along.
Five--Do not let a dealer talk you into a coin. It is OK to let him talk you out of a purchase. You may cut a dealer some slack here once you develop a long term relationship and trust.
Six--Do not underestimate the importance of luster. Many Morgan collectors get so obsessed about coins with a "clean" cheek that they over look the importance of luster. The grading services reward great luster and lack luster coins are shunned by astute collectors.
Seven--If you can, find a dealer with a good "eye" as a source of your coins. This is subjective, and a good eye might mean that he shares your taste.
CG
Morgans are very popular and the prices have indeed been going upon many over the last year
and show no sign of slowing.
The set I'm working on is all graded and, since I bought the common dates first, the ones I
need now are harder to find and very expensive in ms-60 or better.
Either way you do it, it's a fun seies to collect. Keep reading, asking questions, and
always shop for the best deal.
Good luck.
Skipper
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Morgans will make an excellent collection and should never give you reason to regret the
choice of them for your set. Normally the best advice is to get the key dates first, but if
you're just going to upgrade them later anyway this isn't as good of advice. If you like
these coins in AU then this might be a better choice for the entire set. While having all the
coins in the same grade isn't critical to a fine collection, it can be more pleasing to many peo-
ples eye. It will also save a little money and many of these coins can be quite beatiful with
light even wear. Look for astounding examples with nice full strikes.
There were few really expensive Morgans back in the old days. Those that were tended to
be those with small mintages and had significant premiums in any grade. They started being
widely collected in the mid 60's when they started getting cleaned out of government vaults
by the millions. Later sales through the '70's further increased demand for the coins until to-
day when they constitute a large part of the coin market with their high prices and generally
wide availability.
It is wise to sell a coin from time to time to learn how much coins will actually bring on the mar-
ket. A coin wasn't truly a bargain until you sell it at a profit.
The whole point of collecting is to have fun. Good luck.
First, you have already stumbled into the collecting vs. investing issue. My advice: stay flexible. Today you might be a collector, tomorrow you might be an investor. It makes little difference for now provided you make smart decisions. Unless you are of the mindset that you never need to pull your money back out of your collection, your smart decisions now will make your life easier later.
Second, determine if you prefer mirrored surfaces (prooflike and deep mirrored prooflike) to non-mirrored. The costs does goes up, but the rarity goes up as well.
Third, don't buy raw coins. Whenever possible buy PCGS slabbed coins. That should be easy, since you need everything. You might buy NGC slabs, or even ANACS, but I wouldn't extend the reach any further than that. Why PCGS slabs? Because you get the benefit of a respected third party grading company, the coin is protected, and when you go to sell, it is easier to sell when you can say "don't take my word for it, PCGS slabbed it."
Fourth, Consider whether you want to participate in the registry system. It is a fun way to collect and I recemmend it. Of course, only PCGS coins qualify for the PCGS registry, so there is another reason (although far less important) to go with a PCGS slab.
Fifth, there is eye appeal. Sure it is great to know about coin grading, but it will take time to get an experienced eye for technical grading. Technical grading is different than eye appeal. If coins have distracting marks, avoid them. Buy the coins you have a hard time putting down.
Sixth, I often hear this advice: "spend the most you can afford on a particular coin." I think this is wise advice. Prices generally reflect rarity, and rarity generally reflects availability at a particular grade (with the excpetion of Carson City dollars which always seem to be in extraordinary demand). I would invest in the PCGS population report and really study it. For any year and mint, you will see the number of coins graded in each year.
If you are fond of mirrored coins, feel free to pm me for some insider tips.
- Don't have slab phobia...PCGS slabbed coins are NOT the only nice ones out there.
<< <i>Don't have slab phobia...PCGS slabbed coins are NOT the only nice ones out there >>
Worst piece of advice for someone new to collecting coins. Following that advice is how new collectors get stuck with ACG and NTC coins.
Stick to PCGS and NGC. NO EXCEPTIONS
CG
I just don't want the guy to get brainwashed that the only coins out there worth having are those in PCGS slabs. Particularly in the Morgan series in the common dates, there are some really nice raw specimens that can be had...but you're right, knowledge is the key.
1. No one is saying buying a coin JUST because it is in a PCGS slab. A PCGS slab is just one criteria.
2. A coin still needs eye appeal, even in a PCGS slab.
3. A coin even in a PCGS slab may have distracting marks -- avoid those.
4. If the coin satisfies your Demanding eye in all other ways, you should still pass unless it is graded by PCGS, NGC or ANACS.
5. You can still go wrong with PCGS, but this is about probabilities, and chances are you will go wrong less of the time if you stick with PCGS. NGC and ANACS probably have a little bit wider margin of error, but still very worthy of consideration if the coin otherwise satifies your Demanding eye.
6. Never buy any other slab unless you are prepared to flush your money down the toilet, as it is a total crapshoot.
Also keep in mind:
7. An au58 can have more eye appeal than an ms63 or ms64, so don't let the grades sway your opinion about a coin's eye appeal. I have seen many ms63 dogs with baggy cheeks and heavy hits that look far worse than some lightly circulated coins that look new.
And should you take an interest in mirrored coins, consider:
8. PCGS doesn't (yet) attribute a pl designation for coins under ms60, while NGC and ANACS do.
Happy collecting.
buy ever coin in your set once. Take your time, accummulate these one at a time. And buy the coins you will want in your collectino from start to finish. DOn't buy a coin that you will "upgrade" later. There are plenty of coins out there and the right one is worth waiting for.
There are lots of subsets and short sets that you can start with such as the 1878 first year issues, the early S-Mint coins which are very beautiful, well-struck and easily affordable in MS-64 grade, PL's, DMPL's, Carson City Mint issues -- start with the less expensive 1882-CC, 1883-CC & 1884-CC's first, etc.
You have received a lot of valuable advice from fellow forum members that will serve you well as you begin your journey. Have fun!
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
You could buy PCGS coins at say the MS63 level very affordably for many common Morgans. The toughies like the 1880-O could be AU (PCGS Slabs), the super toughies like the 1893-S or 1889-cc could be G or VG. All PCGS of course. Personally I see nothing wrong with mixing grades where money becomes an issue. When you finish (if you finish) you could focus on improving the grades from G to VG or AU to MS60+ where practical. Really, it's large task that given an unlimited budget would still take quite some time to complete.
And there are so many types of Morgans, many like myself collect by die variety. Almost 3,000 types known! And still counting.
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you want to NOT buy these (cleaned, polished, scratched,...)
rather to learn that is what you have been buying 20 years down the road
PaigowJ is correct..to add I would enjoy ANACS VAMs but PCGS or NGC for the over $500 ones especially in higher MS grades..dabble in DMPLs...dabble in Toners.. PCGS on monsters..NGC toners depends if they allow known AT specimens to remain on market
"Stick to PCGS and NGC. NO EXCEPTIONS"
again, it's very simple. collect your coins in NICE vf/xf. you will find FAR MORE coins available to you, at prices you can afford, basically not much above melt, AND when you buy 1 not in plastic, even if you do screw up, your out 10, 20 bucks. you buy a overgraded-piece-o-crap in a pcgs/ngc slab, your out 200, 300, 500 bucks, whatever.
approach this as a COLLECTOR, & not a paranoid plastic-blinded brilliant-is-best test dummy, give the circ's a chance, & you'r gonna do great.
most important of all, make sure YOU like a coin before you buy it. doesn't matter what the dealer, or the plastic says, YOU GOTTA LIKE IT.
K S
ps & as always, never violate the most basic rule of collecting - DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHT UNSEEN
However, once you begin to develop a serious collection you have to think about security. Say for example, you decide to use the I will buy whatever coin I can for $250 method. You could easily have $20K once you get near the finish. I know this is not an immediate concern, but just something to put on your radar for the future.
Good luck and enjoy your coins!
<< <i>Don't buy a coin that you will "upgrade" later. >>
And Frankie and I are learning this the hard way...
<< <i>approach this as a COLLECTOR, & not a paranoid plastic-blinded brilliant-is-best test dummy, give the circ's a chance, & you'r gonna do great. >>
and on this one, I will agree with dorkkarl
congratulations!
may your journey be prosperous!
K S
circ set is you have the ability to not settle for poor coins and do it on a budget. Take
your time and seek the finest coins. This will allow you to learn the nuances of grading
while you're learning exactly what aspects of a coin's condition is most important to you.
The downside of a circ set is that some dates will prove difficult in nice circ grades. Coins
like the '04-O will be tough and you'll find several others. Try to identify these early so
you don't pass up very scarce and very desirable coins just because they aren't perfect.
Good luck.
Or you can get a cheap MS63 one and circulate wear on it yourself