Should There Be A Non FBL Franklin Registry?

foodude · January 20, 2004 11:48AM

This poll was prompted by a Q&A where HRH was asked about whether or not there should be a Non FBL Franklin Registry Link

edited to add: Please explain why there should or should not be a separate Non FBL Franklin Registry.

DennisH · January 20, 2004 1:29PM

All series that have a strike qualifier which gives bonus points should have a division for people who prefer to collect grade over strike.

LucyBop · January 20, 2004 4:08PM

sure why not????

Many stunning GEMs can be found in non-fbl, sadly, lots of these coins are ignored now due to the fbl bonus.

ksteelheader · January 20, 2004 7:53PM

Absolutely! Probably able to get coins much cheaper, at least for a while......Ken

sinin1 · January 20, 2004 11:30PM

don't some people enter sets anyway without qualifiers? They do in other series

Foodude's nonFBL set

It may not get in the top 5, but probably could get in the top 20

DennisH · January 21, 2004 12:41AM

The PCGS Registry system automatically adds the qualifier (and bonus points) when you enter the certification number of the coin.

bartdog · January 21, 2004 12:46AM

Well - you can always register your "NFBL" set... it just won't compete; however, it is still a nice way to show off your collection. My collection across the street is just that.

Bill

Bartdog's MS (w/o-FBLs) Collection

DennisH · January 21, 2004 12:55AM

Hey Bartdog:

Nice Franklin set!!

JMOORE · January 21, 2004 1:38AM

I think that it's a great idea.

It would give those of us who don't have $10,000+++ to shell out for a single coin to have a shot @ a top 5 spot in the registery.

Jim

GQ · January 21, 2004 1:58AM

I vote a big Yes. I could give my reasons but everyone before me has done it already. Now I am going to get into this Frankie thread cheap and make a Jefferson statement. If a MS65 full step Jefferson gets two bonus points....why doesn't PCGS just grade it MS67 and be done with it. Why? Because it is still a MINT STATE 65 COIN. Did I just say MINT STATE. There are certainly some designated coins that are 100% full what ever but.....On any Sunday in all the Gin Joints in all the World no two people will agree on the majority of full whatever designations. Hey.....beat me down but Full Step Designated Coins are a joke. I have non full step designated coins I could shave with the steps and FS designated coins that are flatter than...well...they are just flat.

SHOW ME YOUR GROSS SCORE !!!!!!!!

I don't care about all the padded bonus points you get.....there should be a GROSS SCORE listing somewhere....make it hard to find....that's OK.

But.....SHOW ME WHAT YOU GOT.................don't hide MS64 full what evers behind two and five bonuuuuuuuuuus points

A PURE GROSS SCORE

DennisH · January 21, 2004 2:04AM

Here's another Jefferson FS example:

I have one of the five PCGS MS66 1964-P coins (non-FS). I paid stupid money for it -- $43.

At the Heritage FUN Signature auction earlier this month, one of the two PCGS MS66FS 1964-P coins sold for... take a deep breath now... $4,715.

The gross score average for my complete 1938-64 set is 66.14... no weighting and bonus points whatsoever.

Typetone · January 21, 2004 2:30AM

I agree. Ideally, I would like PCGS to get rid of all strike designations, but I'm sure they won't. As an alternative we should have registry sets with no bonus for the strike designation. In the set you are proposing, both FBL and non-FBL coins should be allowed, but without any bonus for FBL coins. A yes vote from me. I wrote DH a similar question a few months ago.

Greg

MadMonk · January 21, 2004 2:33AM

I want it.

MadMonk · January 21, 2004 2:33AM

I second the motion!

RegistryCoin · January 21, 2004 2:33AM

As I'm sure you all know, strike designations are a huge money-maker for the grading companies. Regrading a coin is pure profit!

MadMonk · January 21, 2004 2:34AM

I third the motion!

MadMonk · January 21, 2004 2:35AM

<< As I'm sure you all know, strike designations are a huge money-maker for the grading companies. Regrading a coin is pure profit! >>

Yea, but arent they suppose to do whats best for the hobby?

Plus, how many Frankies arent being sent in because the owner is discouraged over the FBL issue.
I've got hand ful raw Frankies...I havent sent them in to grade because there is too much risk that I wont be able to sell due to lack of FBL. But, they sure are pretty!

RegistryCoin · January 21, 2004 2:39AM

Best for the hobby???? funny! to say the least...
The grade inflation is ruining what is good about the hobby. Grade inflation is a brain child of those who NEED to get rid of undergraded stock, plain and simple.
Going back to basics is entirely good. imho

Typetone · January 21, 2004 2:48AM

Registrycoin:

A designation review is only $10, or is it $5? Is it really a big money maker?

Greg

wondercoin · January 21, 2004 2:51AM

I voted yes for one simple reason - why not!

There are Registry sets for Euros and other interesting collectibles. Why not non-FBL Franklins?

I bought that 1963(p) Franklin in PCGS-MS66 at FUN for $500 or so because I thought the coin was neat. A touch away (designation wise) from a $30,000 coin. I had no thought of making money on the coin when I bought this one - it is simply a neat coin. I have many coins just like it, such as a pretty 53(s) in MS66 (as Typetone has as well). They are great (non-FBL) coins, even if they are not "great" for Registry purposes.

Wondercoin

RegistryCoin · January 21, 2004 3:02AM

It's as good as a parking lot, or maybe a car wash ???

GQ · January 21, 2004 3:12AM

I like the idea of letting all designated and non designated coins of that series in the set. BUT....one on one. NO bonuses....NO weights....A Pure MINT STATE Competition of a Set. A fun way to go or.....JUST SHOW THE GROSS SCORE

....Lets see what's under the hood....

Typetone · January 21, 2004 4:25AM

flykite · January 21, 2004 4:59AM

A resounding NO to non-fbl!! While we are at it, let's go back to the old days XF, AU, BU, etc. and eliminate condition rarity also (the sound you hear is the collapsing market!) FH, FS, FB, etc. is about STRIKE quality, which is always held as a premium quality in the minds of collectors.

Condition rarity in modern (post-1970) coins is the biggest scam going! Are you going to tell me a 69 or 70 grade coin w/low pop. is such a quantum leap above a 66-68 grade, and deserving of such big $$???!! You have got to be kidding me!

tradedollarnut · January 21, 2004 5:21AM

FH, FS, FB, etc. is about STRIKE quality, which is always held as a premium quality in the minds of collectors.

Always? That's a pretty absolute statement. Frankly, I don't give a rat's patootie whether a coin is 98% struck or 100% struck.

There goes always....

IrishMike · January 21, 2004 5:51AM

flykite do you go by the fbl standard at PCGS which is different and less demanding then NGC's? If so would that be a fully struck coin? Personally I could care less about designations, so I guess I am not a collector.

mnmcoin · January 21, 2004 2:10PM

I think non designation registry sets are a great idea. I think it would bring in thousands of more people into the registry...those people who would like to do a registry set, be competative but not spend multi-thousands of dollars. I think there is also something to be said for letting high end coins speak for themselves. Coins like later mid date (1950-1970) Jefferson Nickels in MS66 come to mind, along with MS66 Franklins.

morris <><

DennisH · January 21, 2004 2:15PM

Morris:

Exactly! And the more people who join the numismatic fraternity, the better it is for all of us.

foodude · January 21, 2004 2:28PM

... And the more people who join the numismatic fraternity, the better it is for all of us That's a great reason.

RegistryCoin · January 21, 2004 2:28PM

yoo hoo!!! this is a great thread. ...talking about technical quality... cool

MadMonk · January 21, 2004 11:05PM

<<

>>

That is a killer coin!

flykite · January 21, 2004 11:38PM

Typetone:

Nice 53-S, BUT...a 65 in my book. (gash over the eye, and I deduct for thumbprint on reverse)

Tradedollarnut:

BUT, you give a rat's butt about chopmarks! (commendable, from a historical prospective); I'll take a pristine one myself!

Irish Mike:

...just not a sophisticated one! Look, if there was only one standard (I wish there was!) there would only be one grading service.

Does anyone remember when the concept of 3rd party grading was supposed to solve all this? Just like when computers were invented, and we were told we would have much less paperwork!!

tradedollarnut · January 22, 2004 12:18AM

Oh... I see..... only 'sophisticated' collectors care if a coin is fully struck in some arbitrary manner. Hmmmm.

Soooo...... it doesn't matter that most FH SLQ's are weak in the shield - or in some points of the head? Doesn't matter that many Mercs are weak elsewhere in strike even if they have the FB designation? Doesn't matter that many Franklins have a split or weak line on the bell that doesn't count when they get the FL designation at PCGS? All that matters is the coin got the designation and that makes you sophisticated because you care? Hmmmmm.

Further.... what's a chopmark got to do with strike designations?

JMOORE · January 22, 2004 12:19AM

<< Nice 53-S, BUT...a 65 in my book. (gash over the eye, and I deduct for thumbprint on reverse) >>

<< BUT, you give a rat's butt about chopmarks! (commendable, from a historical prospective); I'll take a pristine one myself! >>

My Mom always told me that if you don't have something nice to say........................
Especially when no one asked for your opinion..................
And some Newbies wonder why they are treated the way that they are............

flykite · January 22, 2004 12:51AM

Wow! Touchy group this am!!
JMoore: The Colts weren't good enough (nor were my Eagles!) I DIDN'T say it was a BAD coin, just not a '66!
Tradedollarnut: Just my point; ALL GRADING IS ARBITRARY; services or not, the IDEA is that the designations SHOULD reflect strike quality, and I stand by my statement. You are sophisticated enough to know the difference,
and i'm sure you pass on holders saying one thing if the coins don't cut it. As for chops, just another niche, just like FBL. etc...

Gang:

I HATE condition rarity, just as I despise comparative date grading. Take this '53-S as an ex. If it were a 1948P,
and struck this weakly, it wouldn't grade a 64, but being all '53-S Franklins ARE weak, then COMPARATIVELY, it is a good coin.

tradedollarnut · January 22, 2004 3:25AM

Flykite: the question at hand was should PCGS create a separate Registry set for those who wish to collect and compete with only the non FBL coins. I fail to see why you have a problem with the creation of such. Even the suggestion that only non sophisticated collectors are enamored by less than fully struck coins doesn't seem to be a reasonable argument against them having their own sandbox in which to play.

JMOORE · January 22, 2004 3:34AM

having their own sandbox in which to play.

flykite · January 22, 2004 4:18AM

Ok, Ok....let the children play! I'll try logic...let's create a non-fbl
set, encourage people NOT to pursue FBL coins for the sake being top dog
in the Registry? I can see it now...that long, hard search for the elusive '48P non-FBL in MS (point being that just about all '48P are FBL) Do we deduct points for coins w/fbl??

JMOORE · January 22, 2004 5:13AM

encourage people NOT to pursue FBL coins for the sake being top dog

'Oh if I had $10,000, $20,000 or $30,000 to drop on a single coin I would pursue the top FBL coins.

The point is that many do not have the kind of money that it takes to get a top 5 or 10 spot in the Registry when single coins cost that much.

MadMonk · January 22, 2004 6:29AM

<< Ok, Ok....let the children play! I'll try logic...let's create a non-fbl
set, encourage people NOT to pursue FBL coins for the sake being top dog
in the Registry? I can see it now...that long, hard search for the elusive '48P non-FBL in MS (point being that just about all '48P are FBL) Do we deduct points for coins w/fbl?? >>

The point is to let more people participate. That simple. Not everybody can afford FBL coins.
I for one am not going to buy a S mint FBL, and my son probably won't either. But he'd get a kick out of being in the top 150, and it might encourage him to complete a set. Have a goal.

JMOORE · January 22, 2004 7:33AM

'Oh by the way Daniel..

Very, Very nice '53-S

mdwoods · January 22, 2004 7:55AM

Sometimes the difference between FBL and non FBL is very, very slight. Now, I look for luster and eye appeal on Frankies.

MadMonk · January 22, 2004 10:50PM

<< Sometimes the difference between FBL and non FBL is very, very slight. Now, I look for luster and eye appeal on Frankies. >>

That is what a lot of most of the serious Franklin Collectors I've known over the years used to do.

flykite · January 22, 2004 11:01PM

Aghhh!!

Madmonk: I guess this broadens this thread, but, do we want to add more sets just for the sake of participation? There are 9k+ sets now. My prejudice stems from wanting the Registry to represent the finest. My Franklin set has no chance of ever getting any higher than it is now as I to don't have deep pockets. I don't want the Registry to be JUST about participation; that's for little league!

MadMonk · January 22, 2004 11:25PM

Flykite,
While I understand, and am sensitive to your reasoning, I have to think about who is going to pick up after we are gone. The youngsters. We need to support, and encourage them in the hobby. Who has the best non-fbl set? That has legitimacy, because that is how the series can be collected.
My set is mixed. so it will probably stay in the FBL registry. But hey, I can sell my 65fbl's, turn them into straight 66 pieces, and I have a killer set as well. Sales might increase, and the NON-FBL coins might start selling better. It's almost as if a non-fbl Franklin has lost legitimacy due to some designation that is determined by differant grading companies, under differant guidelines, which I really believe hurts the hobby.

LucyBop · January 23, 2004 1:05AM

<< ...just not a sophisticated one! >>

Interesting remark here... Hmmm.....

I really enjoyed the FBL Bonus registry, but I also like this idea.... I don't see how this would hurt the FBL Registry which would still be the 'top finest sets'........

I seriously doubt PCGs would invest much time in persueing this, but you never know.

I love the designations, FBL, FB, FS.........

However, I have more sense then to say and think I'm more sophisticated. That angers me as much as it does when somebody
comes around and sez I'm dumb for paying a premium for the designations......

MadMonk · January 23, 2004 1:31AM

Lucybop,
If anybody equates sophistication, or intelligence to FBL or NON-FBL, they are sadly mistaken. You point them out to me, and I'll kick them in the Frankies!

Hey if I had the deep pockets, I wouldnt mind having all FBL coins in the registry, but I have found so many non fbl pieces over the years that were so pretty, I had to have them. As you have previously stated, a lot of coins are overlooked because they don't have the designation. I find that very sad for numismatics.

flykite · January 23, 2004 1:37AM

Hepkitty:

In the context of my response, my point was that non-fbl is a backwards step, and that superior strike, and all the other factors (luster, etc.)
is what we should be striving for! How many coin shows have you attended, and see pile upon pile of junk being offered, be it Frankies or Morgans or anything else. Let's cull out the trash and keep 'em out of the Registry. Look, some of the best looking Franklins you will ever see are 'S mints w/no detail whatsoever, but in the context of grading them, they don't cut it. Is this elitist? ABSOLUTELY!!! Grading is about passing judgement.

I wish my fellow Franklinites would jump on my bandwagon, not waste time on the non-fbl issue, and DEMAND PCGS recognize the 1958 and 1959P reverse die varieties. People pay 10K and up for the '53-S, when in fact the 1958P w/ the proof (type 2) reverse is the rarest one out there. In 35+ years of searching, I have never SEEN an FBL example in a 65 holder!!

dpoole · January 23, 2004 1:51AM

There seems to be some presumption that the non-FBL Franklin Registry would allow people of more modest means to assemble a quality set.

Actually, the FBL advantage in the Set stats makes that possible now. Why do you think FBL Franks got so expensive? Because of the Registry competition for them. If you start up a non-FBL Registry, watch those prices go up as well. Can you see a 50-D in 66 non-FBL going for $10K in a Heritage auction some day soon?

Actually, it's not a bad idea. I've got a few nice non-FBLs that I'd like to sell for $10K.

MadMonk · January 23, 2004 1:58AM

<< Hepkitty:

In the context of my response, my point was that non-fbl is a backwards step, and that superior strike, and all the other factors (luster, etc.)
is what we should be striving for! How many coin shows have you attended, and see pile upon pile of junk being offered, be it Frankies or Morgans or anything else. Let's cull out the trash and keep 'em out of the Registry. Look, some of the best looking Franklins you will ever see are 'S mints w/no detail whatsoever, but in the context of grading them, they don't cut it. Is this elitist? ABSOLUTELY!!! Grading is about passing judgement.

I wish my fellow Franklinites would jump on my bandwagon, not waste time on the non-fbl issue, and DEMAND PCGS recognize the 1958 and 1959P reverse die varieties. People pay 10K and up for the '53-S, when in fact the 1958P w/ the proof (type 2) reverse is the rarest one out there. In 35+ years of searching, I have never SEEN an FBL example in a 65 holder!! >>

58 and 59p reverse dies coins are cool. I have no problem with them adding those either. But, you'll never change my mind. I'm convinced it's better for the hobby as a whole. How a 40.00 coin can rank higher than a 200.00 coin is beyond my comprehension. There's another Flaw.

MadMonk · January 23, 2004 2:00AM

<< There seems to be some presumption that the non-FBL Franklin Registry would allow people of more modest means to assemble a quality set.

Actually, the FBL advantage in the Set stats makes that possible now. Why do you think FBL Franks got so expensive? Because of the Registry competition for them. If you start up a non-FBL Registry, watch those prices go up as well. Can you see a 50-D in 66 non-FBL going for $10K in a Heritage auction some day soon?

Actually, it's not a bad idea. I've got a few nice non-FBLs that I'd like to sell for $10K.

>>

Yep! That's it, let's get those juices flowing. I really don't think it would be that extreme, as I believe your kidding a little, but it would provide a good shot in the arm.

Should There Be A Non FBL Franklin Registry?

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