paypal woes...sellers beware

nalamolly5

if you accept paypal for ebay transactions please take note.

i recently sold a cheap coin on ebay, and have always had insurance as optional. the buyer opted for no insurance and i shipped the coin. well, he claims to not have received it and is demanding his money back.

i then find out that paypal puts the burden of proof on the seller to prove that the item was shipped, even if the buyer opts to not have it insured or tracked.

luckily, it was only a cheap coin, so it was an inexpensive lesson to learn.

so learn from my mistake, make insurance mandatory, or you could have a paypal reversal on your hands, along with associated reversal fees.

66Tbird

Yep, that's the way it works. It's a lesson I learned in very short order. For a single item type seller (like coins) it isn't quite as rampant, but sell a lot of different stuff and your a target for sure if you don't ship everything insured with internet tracking.

allegri

Hi,

I had that happen once, since I have used USPS Delivery Confirmation (45 cents I believe).
peace of mind and quite inexpensive.

-Brian

Outhaul

Insurance is NEVER optional when I sell a coin on eBay. If you don't want to pay for insurance, DON'T BID.

Cheers,

Bob

LucyBop

you don't even have to do that, send the item delievery comfirmation for another 50 cents or so thru the USPS...

when they have to sign for the item, then it can be tracked and accounted for......

and if a buyer is trying to be dishonest, they won't if they sign for it....

4thStooge

Lucy's post is misleading.
No one signs for items sent with delivery confirmation.

Fairlaneman

50 dollars and 1 cent worth of insurance does the trick. Just figure it in with your shipping charge. I never state that insurance is included but it is after a simular experience just like yours. The insurance is cheap compared to the time wasted trying to figure out something that may or may not be lost.

LucyBop

<< <i>No one signs for items sent with delivery confirmation. >>



hmmmm......

yeah its signature confirmation which carries a higher fee.......

delivery confirmation just insures that the package was delivered at the addy it was sent to and not lost by the PO....

BAJJERFAN

"50 dollars and 1 cent worth of insurance does the trick. Just figure it in with your shipping charge. I never state that insurance is included but it is after a simular experience just like yours. The insurance is cheap compared to the time wasted trying to figure out something that may or may not be lost."

So why would you pay $1.10 to insure 1 cent? If yur gonna do that just insure the thing for $100. You can ALWAYS settle for a lesser amount if that is what the item is worth. Here you get a receipt from the PO saying that on such and such a day you mailed a package to such ad such a zip code; does that not constitute adequate proof that you mailed the item? Even tho many sellers hide behind the disclaimer that if the buyer doesn't purchase ins and the package is lost then buyer is SOL; it is almost always in the seller's best interest to at least purchase some insurance.

cosmicdebris

Delivery confirmation does not mean the receiver got the item it just means the Post office left it. I have had items with delivery confirmation disappear after the postman left it and before I got home to check the mail.

au58

There is a very important issue here. Regardless of the seller's terms, the seller is responsible for ensuring (note that I do not mean insuring) delivery. This includes protection against all forms of loss or damage. Even if an item is not insured, a seller should at least pay the fee for proof of mailing. Delivery confirmation and signature confirmation are even better.

airplanenut

Here's what you can do... eUSPS delivery confirmation--free for priority mail, 13 cents for first class, if the package has at least one point 3/4" thick (just place a little extra at the middle of the envelope...

It will tell you in the USPS computer that it was shipped, and you get a mailing label, as well as a receipt with the destination address and confirmation code, showing that the tracking number that said picked up was going to the buyer...


I'll get the link in a few minutes.

Jeremy

nankraut

Well, now I'm starting to worry. I've mailed a lot of cheap (<$50) packages the past year without insurance, and haven't had any problems (lucky?). I always pay the postage @ the P.O. with credit card, and save the USPS receipt, which shows date mailed, and city/state. I guess I figured it would be sufficient in case of claim of non-receipt. Now, I'm not so sure. Seems like it's tough to charge a buyer $2.20 insurance on a $5 item. What to do??

airplanenut

Program for printing labels from the USPS

4thStooge

I'd love to see the link for 1st class mail!
To the best of my knowledge, the eUSPS labels are for Priority packages under 13 ounces and Express mail.

4thStooge

Dead link, APN.

DCAM

Fixed USPS link Linkie Jeremy, use the https instead of the http

poptopsRus

We require insurance on all our auctions.

Russ

<< <i>i then find out that paypal puts the burden of proof on the seller to prove that the item was shipped >>



This is not news. All processing services put the burden of proof on the seller. PayPal has many flaws, but that requirement is no different than a standard merchant agreement.

Russ, NCNE

Tsimmerdown

Actually, thanks for the heads-up!!

I'm a "casual seller" as in I sell a few items (under $100) a year when I buy an upgrade. Plan to have a few items on coming up for sale sometime in the future. I didn't know about this burden of proof business with Paypal, and I guess I've been lucky in that I've never had any issues with it!!

From now on, it'll be mandatory insurance!! Thanks to all you folks for letting me know about this so I don't learn the hard way!

Conder101

<< <i>delivery confirmation just insures that the package was delivered at the addy it was sent to and not lost by the PO.... >>


Actually it just confirms that the package was delivered somewhere, not that it was delivered to the correct address.

dlshaw

When I ship something with out being Insured, I send a copy of PO receipt to customer (email) showing the shipping date with Zip code.
But for the confirmation cost it would probably be the best way.

topstuf

Look, Paypal is NOT friendly to SELLERS.

They, like eBay have the MISTAKEN impression that BUYERS drive their businesses.

Ebay has so stated publicly in news articles.

They have some idea that BUYERS create all those listings to choose from.

And what do sellers do? Especially COIN sellers????
Well, ask any coin dealer in any town if he will CUT his competitor's price to sell you a Krugerrand to make 2-4 bucks. He will ALMOST invariably do it.

So also are the sellers on eBay who are AFRAID to price their merchandise or intimidated from charging a nominal and reasonable.....BUT ADEQUATE...... amount that will allow the protection that they NEED to avoid LOSING money on sales.

Coin dealers are notorious for working on miniscule margins. Show a STAMP dealer a coin dealer's margin and he will faint.

It's bad enough that eBay is raising fees. But I think it is short sighted and foolish for someone to try to run a business that won't allow charging sufficient fees to protect FUTURE business.

This Paypal outfit has accomodated the "new" American demand for outrageous discounting WITH payment by means that also adds expense.

Some day perhaps everyone will figure out that there is no free lunch and either the sellers will quit offering convenience or the buyers will be willing to pay for the convenience.

But I doubt it. Until then, SOMEBODY will get screwed.

tjkillian

Remember that insurance is not for the buyer, rather it is for the seller. For my auctions, the buyer does not have an option NOT to buy insurance. If the coin is valued over $300.00, it goes registered, whether the buyer likes it or not.

Tom

BAJJERFAN

<<"There is a very important issue here. Regardless of the seller's terms, the seller is responsible for ensuring (note that I do not mean insuring) delivery. This includes protection against all forms of loss or damage. Even if an item is not insured, a seller should at least pay the fee for proof of mailing. Delivery confirmation and signature confirmation are even better.">>

Not so fast my friend. It is the duty of the postal service to ensure delivery of the package not the duty of the seller. As a seller it is my job to present the package at the post office adequately protected against transport damage and clearly labelled to the addressee. If I send a package to Bugtussle, TN and delivery confirmation shows it was received there have I not done my job. I can't help it if the route man left it on Aunt Mabel's porch and the dog or neighbor kid ran off with it. Sorry but in that case I am not responsible because you didn't get it.

razorface1027

Thanks for the heads-up nalamolly. I've recently started shipping EVERYTHING insured as opposed to Del. Conf., not so much for the reasons stated in this thread, but due to the fact that my postman has become ever so curious regarding the contents of my inbound packages. So I got to thinking, which is dangerous I might add, that if more inquisitive postmen knew of the contents in these packages, what's to stop them from "swiping" it even with a Del Conf. affixed to it. Be vigilant...SHIP INSURED for $50.01, regardless of the value of the item being below $50.01...It's safer and you won't be sorry...

UncleJoe

Not so fast my friend. It is the duty of the postal service to ensure delivery of the package not the duty of the seller.

I disagree!!!

Your job as the seller is to get into my hands the item(s) that I purchased from you.

If you choose to use the Post Office, UPS or drive it personally to my door that is up to you. The bottom line is that you have an obligation to make sure I receive the goods. My "contract" is with you, not the PO or PayPal or anyone else.

Mail order businesses deal with this very easily by using their S&H charges to cover these costs.

Joe.

baccaruda

Paypal has followed textbook business procedure:

1. Start off cheap, free, and very convenient for buyers and sellers.

2. Wait until they are the accepted and assumed payment method of buyers.

3. Screw the users for every cent they can once they can no longer quit using the service because of buyer demand.


I think they call this the "Microsoft" model.

baccaruda

I think Microsoft benchmarked heroin dealers on this business model.

topstuf

Baccaruda....You NAILED the best biz op of da CENTURY!

................................. PayDope .......................................

hookooekoo

I can't help it if the route man left it on Aunt Mabel's porch and the dog or neighbor kid ran off with it. Sorry but in that case I am not responsible because you didn't get it.

I too disagree. The seller is the responsible party that must make sure the buyer received the merchandise. As someone else has already stated, insurance is really for the seller's protection not the buyer.

Fairlaneman

I did not see a explanation here why the $50.01 is used and the extra money spent. With $50.00 and lower No signature is required. With $50.01 and above the signature is required when delivered. Since starting the $50.01 routine No Problems have been had period. Before problems would come up almost everytime a batch of coins or car parts were put up for auction.

I would rather spend the money than have the hassle of running down phantom problems.

Edit to Add: I also believe it is the sellers obligation to get the item to the buyer in his hand and not just a door step or Mail Box. That is another reason the Insurance is used. Buyer signs and the item is put directly into his hand. A "Done Deal".

Ken

UncleJoe

Why $50.01 and not $100.00? Isn't the cost the same?

Joe.

Fairlaneman

Joe

You have to prove what a item is worth if it is lost. Most of the things insured for $50.01 are really worth under 50 bucks. When a item is worth over 50 bucks it gets insured for the value plus the postage amount.

No reason I can see to Insure for $100.00 when the thing is worth $44.00. $50.01 works fine.

Ken

BigD5

Next time, get a certificate of mailing (free) from the postmaster when you mail the item. It's free, and proves that you did indeed ship "something" to the address on the certificate. I do it all the time.
I'm not sure if that would be sufficient to satisfy Paypal on a delivery, but it is a notated piece of paper.

Mintstate

As far as I know, just using USPS blue label insurance will not prevent a chargeback. It cannot be tracked online, which is a Paypal requirement. They will accept Delivery Confirmation, which can be tracked online. For payments over $250, they also require a signature, which would mean Signature Delivery Confirmation, UPS signature delivery, and other such services which have online tracking.

nalamolly5

no, it seems that the end user is the final determinant here. if they can dispute the delivery, they can reverse their paypal transaction, leave you holding the bag, along with the reversal fees, not just what they paid you. so just insure it, if they claim that they did not receive it, begin your battle with the usps to get your money back, and refund the buyer's money. it seems tough, but not as tough as having your paypal account frozen.

jimtre

This an interesting subject and a lot of different thoughts expressed..

Most seem to favor the idea it is up to the seller to make sure it gets there. Without taking a stand WHY then does the SELLER say insurance is optional? And why does the seller say insurance is required (and then CHARGE THE BUYER?

I don't know about you but I don't look as hard at the ones that do REQUIRE it and consequently (In my opinion) they probably sell for less.

Someone said they insure it for $50.01 and someone said why not just $50.01 since the cost is the same. Now I tend to think the second was just making the statement as the costs were the same and the reply was why insure a $44 dollar for $100 when you have to justify the value anyway. This was an admirable reply (his honesty is showing). And I think his purpose was just the signature.

Insurance costs $1.30 for the $50 and under and does not require a signature upon delivery. Insurance for $50.01 - $100.00 is $2.20 and DOES require a signature (and of course that is why the above says insure it for $50.01)

There were a lot of real good replies to the original message and very good food for thought.

Now, I work for the Post Office and I would like to share my thoughts on this. Please, I know I have heard all of the stories (some of them horror) but as I said my thoughts. And maybe I have been lucky but except for a roll of war nickels 30 years ago I have lost nothing. That said I have sure seen some rough looking packages come to me for delivery and am amazed they made it this far, without further damage, for lack of good packing. ALWAY! ALWAYS make sure your name and address is somewhere inside.

I LIKE DELIVERY CONFIRMATION and my reasons are. The costs are .45 to .55. Don't confuse this with Signature confirmation which requires a signature $1.80.

When a delivery confirmation is received at my office it is scanned in as received and placed in a seperate stack. (I am assuming they are kept apart upon mailing).

Upon retrieving it I put a red marker in my case. This notifies me I have a hot piece of mail. Upon delivering I then scan the article/package and deliver. Upon returning to the office the scanner is placed in a cradle and downloaded. After it is downloaded (which includes all accountables for the day including signed insured packages, certifieds, registared etc) the sender has this information available to him by computer or an 800 number. I am referring to Delivery confirmations in this paragraph. THESE DELIVERY CONFIRMATIONS ARE TRACKED on a daily basis and poor performance will be treated accordingly, from above.

Some people may like Signature delivery and these are handled in the same way.

Insured packages for $50 or less are delivered just as a letter and now signature required, hence no special treatment needed. Insured for over $50 and is brought to my route the same as any parcel (not kept seperately as a Delivery confirmation is. I then treat it with the red marker as above. As far as tracking I don't know although I do scan it and of course it is downloaded as above.

Registered mail, of course, is signed by everyone that touches it. And even goes on break with you.

Someone said Delivery confirmation is free. Yes to some mailers (in this case I think the person was getting their postage via the internet). If you haven't checked in to it you might try it.

Also someone said you can send first class with delivery confirmation. Actually this is true if you have a certain thickness (he alluded to) and I don't know the requirements but it is true that you can send first class mail with del. conf. (not a letter though). And I think I would make sure it didn't get into the letter hopper with that fat bulge in the center.

My thoughts only.

Jim

http://www.usps.com/tools/calculatepostage/welcome.htm?from=global&page=0061calculatepostage

BAJJERFAN

My point is that just how much proof do you want that I mailed the goddam thing? I have a receipt from the post office that says I mailed an item to your zip code on a certain day. I have a delivery confirmation that says the item was received in your location a few days later. I may or may not have an insurance formed signed by someone other than you saying that the package was received at your address. Even if I pay for the extra 1 cent insurance that is no guarantee that the package will be signed for by you.
So how much do you expect me to do for a lousy $30 item and how much would YOU do?
If you are goung to do a lot of business on eBay or whatever get yourself a PO box.

BAJJERFAN

<<"I did not see a explanation here why the $50.01 is used and the extra money spent. With $50.00 and lower No signature is required. With $50.01 and above the signature is required when delivered. Since starting the $50.01 routine No Problems have been had period. Before problems would come up almost everytime a batch of coins or car parts were put up for auction.'>>

What if you mailed out two packages and the next day realized that instead of a $40 item you mistakenly shipped a $90 item and it gets lost. Since you stated the value as $50.01 you are SOL for the other $39.99. Since you are paying for up to $100 coverage why not claim that value. You can always prove the value is less than the insured amount but its darn tough to claim more.

TWQG

Postage fees are not covered by insurance.

Fairlaneman

Hmmm, I wonder why I got the postage back ? The Pay Pal document that was shown the Postal Clerk had the postage included. Guess its just what you show them. I paid a fee for delivery and the item was lost. Its only fair that the loser pays the fee that was paid to not lose the item.

Ken

khayse

> Regardless of the seller's terms, the seller is responsible for ensuring (note that I do not mean insuring) delivery.

You can say that but that doesn't make it true. In fact, legally, I thought it was the reverse.
If you have a link showing your position is correct then link it. Otherwise I'll just assume you're blowing hot air.

Also, I'm with the group that says that if it gets stolen off your porch it's your problem.

-Khayse

BAJJERFAN

"If you choose to use the Post Office, UPS or drive it personally to my door that is up to you. The bottom line is that you have an obligation to make sure I receive the goods. My "contract" is with you, not the PO or PayPal or anyone else."

Then it would at best be a casual or nonspecific contract usually with no terms spelled out. Maybe some of our legal beagles can enumerate some minimum standards which apply here. It really seems that yu need to meet the standards set by peepal if you use them for the transaction. But like everything else common sense and a little knowledge helps the most.

airplanenut

<< <i>Not so fast my friend. It is the duty of the postal service to ensure delivery of the package not the duty of the seller.

I disagree!!!

Your job as the seller is to get into my hands the item(s) that I purchased from you.

If you choose to use the Post Office, UPS or drive it personally to my door that is up to you. The bottom line is that you have an obligation to make sure I receive the goods. My "contract" is with you, not the PO or PayPal or anyone else.

Mail order businesses deal with this very easily by using their S&H charges to cover these costs.

Joe. >>

Sorry, but that's not the case. If you pay for something and waive insurance, it is my job to ship the item--if I use delivery confirmation, I will have it noted that I shipped the package, and I have done my duty. If you don't get it, tough $hit... your fault.

If you paid for the insurance, it is my job to work to get the refund... but if you don't insure, my only job is to get it into the mail system.

lablover

<< <i>send the item delievery comfirmation for another 50 cents or so thru the USPS... >>



Yep, that works very well. I sent a coin off with delivery confirmation. When I called the dealer I sent it to I found out that the USPS left the ENTIRE confirmation on the package in his mail box.

BAJJERFAN

Well the USPS aint perfect so thats why they sell insurance.
When I list a coin on eBay I plan for first class shipping, which from Iowa to anywhere in the lower 48 is about $2 and that includes the padded envelope. I have a pretty good idea what the coin will sell for and post my insurance charges accordingly. So I charge first class postage and insurance and usually nothing else. Also I have sent enuf coins to know what it costs to send them and when I am being ripped off on excess fees and stuff like that. I have seen sellers who have wastefully overspent sending stuff to me and others who have attempted to get by on the cheep.
When I offer coins on the B, S & T board here, I send first class well packaged and with adequate insurance. If I need to, I return purchased items the same way. Anyone here who has dealt with me can attest to that. For a $175 coin I will insure for $150 and make up the difference out of my pocket if it gets lost.

TWQG

<< <i>For a $175 coin I will insure for $150 and make up the difference out of my pocket if it gets lost. >>



huh? the cost of insurance would be the same for $100.01 and $200 and anything inbetween.

BAJJERFAN

I believe in the past there used to be a $150 increment too. After looking at the rates chart I see I picked a bad example. If I was selling a $208 coin to you I would insure the coin for $200 and not pay extra to insure the measly $8. If the coin got lost I would make up the $8 out of my pocket. That is the point I was trying to make.

UncleJoe

Premise of this whole thread:
i then find out that paypal puts the burden of proof on the seller to prove that the item was shipped, even if the buyer opts to not have it insured or tracked.

Credit to Russ for the following:
This is not news. All processing services put the burden of proof on the seller. PayPal has many flaws, but that requirement is no different than a standard merchant agreement.

If you send me something and I don't receive it, you will either replace it or I will not pay (chargeback) for it. It is as simple as that.

Joe.

Conder101

<< <i>When a delivery confirmation is received at my office it is scanned in as received and placed in a seperate stack. (I am assuming they are kept apart upon mailing).

Upon retrieving it I put a red marker in my case. This notifies me I have a hot piece of mail. Upon delivering I then scan the article/package and deliver. Upon returning to the office the scanner is placed in a cradle and downloaded. After it is downloaded (which includes all accountables for the day including signed insured packages, certifieds, registared etc) the sender has this information available to him by computer or an 800 number. I am referring to Delivery confirmations in this paragraph. THESE DELIVERY CONFIRMATIONS ARE TRACKED on a daily basis and poor performance will be treated accordingly, from above. >>


What happens if you stuff it into the wrong mailbox? The computer records still show it as having been delivered but it didn't get to the person it was intended for and there is no way to know who got it. (Where I live the mailmen often routinely scan all of their "hot" mail before they start their routes so as to speed up their deliveries. Usually the only thing I ever have to actually sign for is registered mail. Even > $50 mail is just left in the box or on the ground if it won't fit in the box with out getting signed for.) Deliver confirmation only shows that it was delivered somewhere.