Counterfeit coins in PCGS holders?????

sumner1984

Is this possible, has it ever happened?? Assuming the seal on the holder is perfect, has PCGS ever slabbed a counterfeit coin ?

lordmarcovan

I'm sure it's happened once or twice, maybe, but certainly not very often. The folks at PCGS are human and occasionally fallible, too, just like anyone. Not much gets past 'em, though.

dollardude

Not likely, but you have their guarantee to back your purchase.

sinin1

I even think PCGS aggressively trys to get those back - to prevent bad PR

DennisH

There is growing belief among some Morgan dollar variety collectors that the 1896, 1900 and 1902 Micro-Os are all counterfeits made back during those years. I for one am convinced.

In my experience, and I've owned 3-4 examples of each date, the coins have a VERY similar crude and mushy "look" to them that is far worse than even the low quality workmanship the New Orleans Mint was known for. The reverses appear to be identical, as though all of the coins came from the same reverse die. The last two digits in the dates are disproportionately larger and bolder than the others, which is especially noticeable on VG or worse coins.

All three dates are unknown to exist in Mint State and are rarely found in even as high as Fine condition. This suggests to me that someone out West where silver dollars were regularly used in circulation made a limited number of them (my guess is they were cast rather than struck) and then gradually spent them.

Given that a dollar contained less than 50 cents worth of silver bullion during this period, and 50 cents was not an insignificant amount of money back then, I think there was enough financial incentive to justify the time and workmanship to produce the perhaps few hundred coins of each date that were made.

That's my theory anyway.

wallstreetman

Havent heard of any in PCGS holders, but I personally lost my a** on a counterfeit IHC in an ANACS holder!

tjkillian

David Hall even admitted that PCGS has slabbed counterfeit coins. Very few, but more than none. No one alive is perfect, that is why they have a guarantee.

Tom

Rittenhouse

There was a previous thread on this. They do make mistakes, but not where it really matters. You're not gonna get a fake 16D, S-VDB, 16 Qtr, 95 dollar, etc.

I have seen a couple Omega HR 20s, a low grade CBH or 2, and a low grade Seated Half. Not to worry all of these would go for more money than real.

BillJones

<< <i>I have seen a couple Omega HR 20s, a low grade CBH or 2, and a low grade Seated Half. Not to worry all of these would go for more money than real. >>



I don't think that is true for the Omega High Relief $20 gold. A couple of Baltimore shows ago a dealer had one he was one offering for $550 when gold was selling about $325 an ounce. There's not a genuine High Relief on the planet that's worth that little.

Wolf359

There is growing belief among some Morgan dollar variety collectors that the 1896, 1900 and 1902 Micro-Os are all counterfeits made back during those years. I for one am convinced.

You gotta be kidding me....

DennisH

Jack:

I'm dead serious... and Morgan VAM fans aren't the only ones who believe so.

On page 23 in the June 2003 issue of "The Numismatist", David Lange's column is entitled "A Look At Mintmarks". On page 24, near the end of the second-to-last paragraph, he writes:

"An old dollar reverse from the early 1880s was apparently used for the "Micro-O" silver dollars of 1899, while the similar but quite poorly made "Micro-O" dollars of 1896, 1900 and 1902 most likely are circulating counterfeits created with transfer dies made from genuine coins."

Conder101

They can and do happen but it is rare. There was a case well known to John Reich Society members that happened maybe ten years back at the fall ANA convention when a dealer reported that he had an IMPORTANT PCGS slabbed capped bust half that he was going to be offering for a lot of money at the show. It was an unlisted variety with both a new obverse and reverse die. He wasn't showing it until his potential customer arrived. Well he finally arrived and the coin was shown. It turned out to be a previously known contemporary counterfeit.

Wolf359

Dennis,

I don't own any Micro O's except 3 from 1899.

But I'm not too impressed with David Lange at all when it comes to Morgan dollars. The man cannot even grade them correctly from my personal experience. Now lincolns...he's a grandmaster.

Edited to add: This does explain why NGC refuses to accept them right now.

RotatedRainbows

<< <i>They can and do happen but it is rare. There was a case well known to John Reich Society members that happened maybe ten years back at the fall ANA convention when a dealer reported that he had an IMPORTANT PCGS slabbed capped bust half that he was going to be offering for a lot of money at the show. It was an unlisted variety with both a new obverse and reverse die. He wasn't showing it until his potential customer arrived. Well he finally arrived and the coin was shown. It turned out to be a previously known contemporary counterfeit. >>



I remember that incident, if memory serves me it was an 1825 graded AU (AU50???). Never really heard much about it after it was determined to be counterfeit.

fivecents

Someone posted a PCGS graded large cent that had the letter "e" altered to a "u"in the word Cent. It was an altered but real US coin. How the graders missed it is beyond me.

BillJones

<< <i>Someone posted a PCGS graded large cent that had the letter "e" altered to a "u"in the word Cent. It was an altered but real US coin. How the graders missed it is beyond me. >>



It's not hard when a grader is expected to grade hundreds or thousands of coins a day, and spends about 10 seconds looking at each one of them ...

Collectors and dealers stress a heck of a lot more over these coins than the graders do...

slothman2000

I just sent in a 1909 -s vdb thst was purchased from a reputable deale that was sent back "not genuine"