PCGS vs NGC grading test (mine) results included!

sadysta1 · December 3, 2003 6:18AM

A while ago I was able to purchase an original roll of "blast white" 1887 Morgans from my local dealer. I decided to have some fun with them. I divided them in two groups (10 coins each) and sent half of them to PCGS and the other half to NGC. Please note that I did not pick and choose the coins for this test. The coins were in a SureSafe CoinVault and I simply picked 10 coins from the right hand side to go NGC and the coins from the left hand side went to PCGS. The only thing I did to all the coins before shipping is to give them a gentle acetone wipe (I hate PVC bodybags)
The results were:

NGC RESULTS
2 coins bodybagged "cleaning"
7 MS63
1 MS64

PCGS RESULTS
3 coins bodybagged "cleaning"
4 MS62
3 MS63

Here it is so what do you think?

agentjim007 · December 3, 2003 6:23AM

Sounds like a typical roll (ms62/64). I don't get why you acetoned a "blast white" roll.

SethChandler · December 3, 2003 6:24AM

What's an acetone wipe?

Veridicus · December 3, 2003 6:25AM

<< Sounds like a typical roll (ms62/64). I don't get why you acetoned a "blast white" roll. >>

Ditto.

flaminio · December 3, 2003 6:30AM

<< Here it is so what do you think? >>

I think it's a completely bogus "test". Now, if you sent the same ten coins to PCGS and then to NGC, you might have something to talk about -- but ten different coins to each service demonstrates nothing.

Here's my test. Same coin, passed around amongst all the major grading services. It's only one data point, but it's still more informational than your experiment.

MadMarty · December 3, 2003 6:35AM

Now crack them out and send the NGC coins to PCGS and the PCGS coins to NGC.

geb209 · December 3, 2003 6:51AM

I second the crackout suggest but you had better take pictures of the coins first or it will be hard to tell which coins got what grades (i.e., they all go on one line).

JasonRox · December 3, 2003 7:36AM

What makes a company good graders?

Is it because they grade tough?

If it is, I'm opening a new grading company that will never have anything higher than MS-62. After that, PCGS will seem like AGC/PCI/SEG.

Whitewashqtr · December 3, 2003 7:51AM

flaminio -

Your NGC coin looks like a different coin that the other ones. Like when you play the game "which one doesnt belong". Explain.

Manorcourtman · December 3, 2003 7:55AM

Boo.........not a good test

my3cents · December 3, 2003 8:03AM

I agree - the NGC coin appears different than the others - it's missing the haze/spots that all of the others appear to have.

What's up with that?

dollardude · December 3, 2003 9:45AM

Thanks for doing this and for sharing the results. This is very interesting! The results would seem to indicate that PCGS is the stricter grader, as I would suspect. However, the test is not completely sound, as mentioned above. You would need to send the exact same coins, raw (no slabs to bias the graders), to both PCGS and NGC to get more accurate results.

BTW, I would never do a "wipe" due to the temporary storage in a PVC flip. The coin simply does not have enough time to be PVC-damaged during the grading process.

sinin1 · December 3, 2003 11:52AM

statistically insignificant -> unless you reverse the test

and send them to the other guys after cracking out (and may still be insignificant)

whats up with the acetone wipe? did that cause the bodybags? a wipe would look like a cleaning wouldn't it?

flaminio - I think they are the same coin although the NGC picked up a scratch under the R of George (or else it is a small crack in the slab) - maybe I should look for an ICG MS69 to cross to ANACS

airplanenut · December 3, 2003 12:05PM

<< The results would seem to indicate that PCGS is the stricter grader, as I would suspect >>

Unfortunately, they don't... there's the chance that the worst coins got sent to PCGS... unfortunately, the test only proves that out of 20 coins, 5 were bodybagged, 10 given MS63, 1 MS64, and 4 MS62.

<< Your NGC coin looks like a different coin that the other ones. Like when you play the game "which one doesnt belong". Explain. >>

It's the new NGC holder... came out in July/August.

XpipedreamR · December 3, 2003 12:13PM

<< flaminio -

Your NGC coin looks like a different coin that the other ones. Like when you play the game "which one doesnt belong". Explain. >>

I seem to remember that it was sent to NCS to remove the spots. It looks like there's a little ding below the R in George...that might be a flaw in the photo or the slab.

Bikingnut · December 3, 2003 1:15PM

Not a valid test. You should have sent the same ten coins to both grading services.

airplanenut · December 3, 2003 1:18PM

Coin, not slab

JasonRox · December 3, 2003 1:24PM

<< The results would seem to indicate that PCGS is the stricter grader, as I would suspect. >>

Being strict does not mean being accurate.

You can have a company that will never grade higher than MS-64, with no exceptions. That's like bumping the system from 0-70 to 0-64 without telling you.

Would this be accurate? Obviously not.

DHeath · December 3, 2003 1:27PM

Let's assume for a moment that your experiment was empirically perfect. Which company's grades were "correct"? In this instance, you were a submitter. How does the difference in grades given effect current market value of the two submissions based on recent prices realized?

JasonRox · December 3, 2003 1:46PM

To meet a statistical significance?

You can use a sample of any size.

What you said made no sense.

Whitewashqtr · December 3, 2003 1:58PM

manofcoins

why would you need pictures? to keep track of which coins are which?

whats really important is.. this would cost a lot of money to do and with the grades we are talking about, well, its just not worth it. didnt coinworld do this test already with published results?

the test obviously should be done with the SAME coins being sent to the services. there s really not much else to talk about now.. is there?

airplanenut · December 3, 2003 1:58PM

<< Meaningless data. Need to send same coins to both grading companies with pictures. Costly but more accurate. You will
need a fairly large number of coins to meet statistical significance. >>

Not costly- 10 coins x2 is the same as 10 coins to each service... whether they're the same or a different 10

DHeath · December 3, 2003 2:10PM

Based on recent Teletrade results for non-toned coins, I'd estimate the market value as follows:

NGC RESULTS
2 coins bodybagged "cleaning" est. @ $10 each
7 MS63 @ $30 each
1 MS64 @ $45

NGC total = $275

PCGS RESULTS
3 coins bodybagged "cleaning" est. @ $10 each
4 MS62 @ $20 each
3 MS63 @ $30 each

PCGS total = $200

Assuming you find the grades reasonable with coin in hand, it appears you fared better on the first batch.

Whitewashqtr · December 3, 2003 2:15PM

Not if you are sending both batches of 10 coins to the other service. Anyway.. I think the last post spells it out as for value. IT DOESNT PAY to do the test. That is my point

toyonakataro · December 3, 2003 5:03PM

Interesting test, sadysta1. Thanks for sharing.
But can you give me your opinion on the coins graded by both companies?
Do you think PCGS is tighter than NGC or do you think both company graded correctly?
I also would like to know the reason why both body bagged some of the coins...your thoughts, please?

billiardmaster · December 3, 2003 7:08PM

Different opinion....please note what I have to say. It will save you some money.
First, you need another dealer to do business with. It is obvious you got
screwed on the roll. A real BU roll would not have those cleaned coins in it.
That is the important thing about this test, that plus you learned you do not
seem to know how to grade? Which is not a slam, just something you need
to work on. Best of luck.
Rusty

dorkkarl · December 3, 2003 9:14PM

<< Here it is so what do you think? >>

i think you better stop wiping coins. wiping is for your butt.

K S

sadysta1 · December 3, 2003 9:25PM

First I want to apologize for using words "gading test" If I say that I sent half the roll to PCGS and the other half to NGC would that make anyine feel any better?????

What Ihave learned:

PCGS IS VERY, VERY tight right now, I was expecting one, maybe two 62 tops but not four

NGC CAN grade white coins, was right on the money with the grades IMHO and they are not as tight as PCGS right now. (the whole roll was MS63 quality)

BOTH SERVICES - cleaning is very arbitrary, none of the coins seemed to be cleaned when I inspected them.

Acetone swipe (someone asked) is gently swabbing the surface of the coin with acetone to remove any alleged PVC contamination. Someone also asked why I did it on blast white coins? I got one coins bodybagged LONG TIME AGO by PCGS for PVC contamination. To this day I cannot find any problem with it so from that point on as a precutionary measure I wipe every coins with acetone before sending it for grading (NO EXEPTIONS)

DeepCoin · December 3, 2003 9:58PM

Statistics are a funny thing, but you cannot say something is either significant or not without stating the methodology used. For example, consider a Chi squared test. What was essentially a homogenious sample (roll of unsorted "MS63" coins) was split into two groups for evaluation by a 3rd party. I would suggest that inferences could be made from this.

I guess what I am saying is that if you are going to say something is or is not statistically signficant, give us your methodology and your numbers.

PCGS vs NGC grading test (mine) results included!

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