Janvier machine

XpipedreamR

Does anyone know when the mint started using the Janvier machine?

Were the two SLQ types produced differently, ie, without, then with, the use of this machine?

lordmarcovan

IHNAC.

(I have not a clue.) Interesting question, though. Ain't that the machine that reduces the image- reads the big clay model and then creates it in smaller form on the die?

I would never have understood the process from reading about it, except I saw that TV documentary on the Mint. Pretty neat.

kranky

I don't know, but I guarantee that Rittenhouse does.

XpipedreamR

<< <i>Ain't that the machine that reduces the image- reads the big clay model and then creates it in smaller form on the die? >>



Yes, it is.


Unless I'm totally off-base, it's my understanding that the use of this machine allowed for the "new look" of the coins that that came out in the first part of the century. Instead of having to evgrave a die directly, and with the artistic limitations this imposes, the artist is free to create whatever he wants in large form, and then let a machine do the dirty work, so to speak.

I think the SLQ is interesting because although the two types have essentially the same design, type 1 seems to embody the old style of coinage, while type two definitely has a more "modern" look. I wondered if the Janvier might have anything to do with this.

Veridicus

Yup, we need Rittenhouse on this one.

Mark

Well, I was surprised what I found out by looking at Taxay, The U.S. Mint and Coinage. According to Taxay, "In 1907, the Hill reducing machine was replaced by the Janvier lathe, which not only cuts superior reductions, but can work in different heights." Personally, I would have guess that the Janvier machine was introduced in the id-1800s, but Taxay says otherwise.

Mark

airplanenut

<< <i>Personally, I would have guess that the Janvier machine was introduced in the id-1800s, but Taxay says otherwise. >>

As would I have... I read that it's well over 100 years old. Maybe it wasn't used for production until 1907, but for other medals earlier.

Jeremy

BillJones

The first Janvier machine was brought to U.S. Mint from France in 1907. It was part of the program to get the St. Gaudens designs for the $10 and $20 gold coins into production. One of St. Gaudens' assistants advised Teddy Roosevelt to obtain one for the U.S. mint and he did - over the head of Charles Barber who was the chief mint engraver at the time.

Conder101

I believe the reason the Janvier is "over a hundred years old" is because it was used in Europe for awhile before it was introduced here.

Gemini

In 1891 the reducing machine was pictured as part of the equipment in use at our Mint in George G. Evans book "History of the United States Mint and Coinage"
so it must have been already in use in the Mint before the 1900's
Did not say that this was the Janvier machine but a reducing machine.

Rittenhouse

The reducing machine pictured in Evans is the old Contamin portrait lathe. The drawing in Evan is the same one that appeared in Gleason's Pictorial in 1852 and in Harper's New Monthly in 1861. By the time it appeared in Evans, it was well out of date. The Contamin lathe was replaced in 1868 (ordered in 67) by the improved Hill lathe.

Here's chronology of the reducting lathes:

The Contamin lathe arrived at the Mint in April, 1837. It replaced the reducing patograph used, and apparently brought to the Mint, by Christian Gobrecht in 1835. Hill lathe 1868, replaced the Contamin. Janvier replace the Hill in Feb. 1907 (I *think*, I saw the record but can't remember the month; doesn't matter, was just confirming Taxay).

The Javier was certainly brought to the Mint to support St. Gaudens' work. St. G & his assistant (Henry Hering, who acutally did much of the work since St. G was in bad health) *thought* the Mint already had one and recommended they get one when Hering discovered they didn't. I don't know that I'd agree that Roosevelt "went over Barber's head". Roosevelt was the President and thus just a wee bit higher in the pecking order than Barber .

Anyway, the bit of the Janvier being over 100 years old is just another one of the myths of the Mint. Not sure how this got started, but when I spoke with some of the Mint engravers at the striking ceremony at the Franklin Institute on March 23, 2003 to commemorate the first steam press, they tried to tell me the same thing. I politely noted that I had just seen the record of arrival in 1907 in the Mint records at the Regional Arhcives just down the street and they could take a look for themselves. It was obvious that they really didn't want to hear it, so I quickly changed the subject.

BTW, --NEVER-- mention the fact that the old screw press the Mint occasionally hauls around to ANA conventions and touts as "the first press made by Eckfeldt" is acutally a light stamping press circa 1860. That really upsets them .

nwcs

Which brings up a fascinating question... Is there a book which details mint technology over the years? Doesn't need to be restricted to US coinage. Could be from ancient to today. But I'd love to find a book that went into the history of all the technology used to develop/design coins.

Rittenhouse

Yes. Denis Cooper "The Art and Craft of Coinmaking". Cooper was Chief Engineer of the Royal Mint before retiring to go into the coinage equip business. His book spans ancient thru modern. It's a must have for any serious student. Taxay is also a must have. Taxay remains the most accurate work on the US Mint. I've only found 3 errors in Taxay: the bit about the Droz presses (in fact, records Taxay quotes undo the theory, I don't know hy he didn't see it), the wrong reason the Mint couldn't hub full dies 'till 1836 due to misunderstanding of mechanics on his part, and a minor error on the arrival date of the Contamin lathe (it was *ordered* in 36, arrived in 37). Pretty darn good work. If only Breen were half as accurate. 'Course Taxay and Breen were different. Taxay liked facts and Breen never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Mark

Rittenhouse (et. al.)

Do you know the story why Taxay quit the coin business? And what he went into? And what he is doing now?

When I was collecting in the 1960s, Taxay was in his prime. He's a good author and a good researcher. I guess I compare him nowadays to Julian. Indeed, I wish Julian would issue a hard cover book with his writings in it, ordered in some fashion. For instance, he could order the writings according to the type of coin or according to the year(s) in history the article covers. In truth, I actually wish he would write a complete book, but in the absence of that, I do wish he'd collect what he thinks are his best articles and issue them in hardcover.

Thanks in advance for any information about Taxay.

Mark

Rittenhouse

Taxay got bored with the whole deal and went off on "extended sabbatical". One report had him traipsing thru Tibet in full garb. Sounds about right.

Julian is good friend & fellow RS member. We do a lot of work together. I do the minting tech stuff for him, he keeps me straight on fiscal history. Bob & I have talked about a book off an on for at least 10 years. Doubt it will ever happen; neither of us seems to be able to work up the energy. Besides, we're both fairly busy. Bob has the Russian Numismatic Journal to edit & articles for CW, NN, Coinage, etc. I like writing techie & historical articles for the club journals and books.

Barndog

This is the stuff of numismatics, excellent discussion.

MajorDuty

<< <i>This is the stuff of numismatics, excellent discussion. >>



I was thinking the same thing; there are some great replies to this thread.

Xpipe aint just an OF guy, huh?

Leiana

Cool thread.

-Amanda

Russ

Excellent brain food.

Russ, NCNE

XpipedreamR

interesting related article

mdwoods

Very interesting and something I've wondered about for a long time.