Just how rare is vintage hockey?

goodriddance189

it seems that vintage (pre 1990, before the card boom and proliferation of sets) hockey is much more scarce than other sports, especially baseball and football. i know hockey isnt as collected as other sports, but there seems to be a real shortage of higher grade material out there, especially OPC. in the 1980's and 90's this could mainly be attributed to OPC being distributed only in Canada, but with ebay and the rise of card grading, it makes me wonder if hockey was produced in smaller quantities. i finally got access to the pop report and did some research on hockey vs. the other sports, and it looks like hockey is far more scarce. i took a few superstar rookies from each sport from the 1980's and compared the pop reports in PSA 9. my findings are as follows (totals are PSA 9, and total cards graded)-

Baseball (all cards are Topps unless noted)
1980 Henderson 527/5796
1985 Mcgwire 4048/42939
1982 Ripken 2683/15148
1987 Fleer Bonds 6727/17788

Football
1981 Montana 720/6866
1984 Marino 1247/12206
1984 Elway 791/10363
1986 Rice 455/9627

Hockey (all cards are OPC)
1980 Bourque 18/357
1980 Messier 56/608
1985 Lemieux 182/1268
1984 Yzerman 192/1443
1986 Roy 166/933
1979 Gretzky 24/1496


the PSA 9/total graded ratio for most cards is around 8%/12%, so it doesnt appear that OPC hockey is much more condition sensitive, but the total cards graded for baseball and football (i didnt bother with basketball, because of the erratic release history of basketball product before 1989) are astronomically higher. i know that fewer hockey cards are submitted for grading as a whole, especially with so few hard core set collectors, but these are superstar rookie cards. by now most sellers know that PSA graded cards always bring more than raw. just to reiterate my theory, i did a search for raw rookies on ebay as well. same results- there are always a smaller number of hockey cards offered at any given time than other sports.

i only focused on 1980s rookies, mainly because those are the most-submitted. but comparison of 50's and 60's vintage hockey vs. other sports shows the same results- hockey is a helluva lot harder to find (overall, and especially in higher grades). any possible reason for this? i always believed that a lack of a global distribution system accounted for scarcity, since most hockey collectors are based up north and in Canada. but with ebay, mail order, auction houses, etc, it seems there is a serious shortage of hockey material.

any thoughts?

predsfan

Having grown up in Canada and collected cards as a kid I know there are scores of OPC cards ungraded sitting in closets. Eventually they may see the light of day and be graded but PSA is not yet as popular there and it is expensive to pay American dollars to have cards graded paying the exchange. I'm sure you can get nicer ungraded material at Canadian card shops/shows. Just a thought.

Basilone

Predsfan-

How about the late 50's early 60's Parkhurst stuff....do you see alot of that up in your neck of the woods?

Boopotts

Goodriddance-

I've noticed the same thing, so I wonder if there isn't fact just less of it floating around. I'm almost positive that this applies to all early 70's and prior releases, although I realize this isn't what you're geting at in this thread.

BTW, I personally don't think we've even come close to reaching the ceiling on prices for pre '75 hockey cards. The sets are relatively small, which means you're not going to have to kick out eight grand for a stack of PSA 8 commons, the cards look cool (on the average, there definitely are exceptions), and in raw form they're already more expensive than baseball; e.g., you can't get into any nice pre '66 commons for less than eight or ten bucks each, while you can still find nice baseball up to 1960 for two or three dollars a card.

Also, I picked up a very, very clean raw '61-'62 Jacque Plante York Yellow Back while at the Toronto show this weekend. It's going to PSA this week, and I'll let you know what it grades at (if you're interested).

tripoli

HI, I live in Vancouver and I can tell you, from experience, that it is very DIFFICULT to find raw cards in half decent shape. At card shows and card shops locally, you can at best hope for an EXMT or PSA 6 grades but more than likely than aren't gradeable. My high quality raw cards come from specialists that deal in high grade (read: expensive) hockey cards. And the grading hasn't caught on here yet, you still have the 'old boys' network and attitude towards grading. I was at a show recently and the dealer had a 1969 OPC Bobby Orr #24 card priced at Beckett's NRMT price of $175 and it had a visible piece missing from the front! And they wonder why it doesn't sell. I doubt very much that there is tons of raw cards waiting to be discovered for the following reasons, everyone that collected cards back then, knows how much they can be worth now, but everyone played games with them or put them in bike spokes.
In my pursuit of finishing the first set of PSA certified 1969 OPC (little plug for myself), I have literally seen thousands of cards, and I now own 800 cards, graded and raw, from 1969 alone. The 1969 OPC low series, particularly the low number MOntreal Canadiens are impossible to find in Nrmt-Mt shape. I would like to hear from anyone that has a differing opinion. It's easy to say that there aren't many commons graded because of the cost etc, but I say it's because there is NO supply!

aro13

There is a lot of 1970's and 1980's hockey that has yet to be graded. At the Canadian Expo this past weekend there were very few dealers that had mostly graded cards. Messier, Bourque, even Gretzky rookies can be found quite easily. Finding them in Mint condition is another matter but there is still some unopened wax available.

I agree with predsfan1 most Canadian dealers and collectors have not yet caught on to the grading idea. It is expensive and time consuming to send cards from Canada.

basilone - There was a lot of 50's and 60's Parkhurst and Topps hockey at the Canadian show. Most of the cards are in the EX-NMT range but they are far from scarce. At this past show the cards that we sold the most were commons and minor stars from 50's and 60's parkies. We sold far fewer star cards than we usually do but plenty of collectors were completing sets in EXMT and better grade.

Hockeybonkers99

thanks to the "rough"opc cut, finding a mint 9 or higher is extremly difficult from 88-89 prior.

my 2 cents.

Basilone

<< <i>basilone - There was a lot of 50's and 60's Parkhurst and Topps hockey at the Canadian show. Most of the cards are in the EX-NMT range but they are far from scarce >>



How about cards that would grade PSA 8 or higher?

Teemu

I live in Ohio and the only access I have to hockey cards is the internet and big card shows. I'm sure John Bailone will agree, not much hockey here.

I too was at the Toronto show and there were thousands upon thousands of ungraded vintage hockey cards at the show. Problem is, very, very little worth grading. In fact, the dealers with cards that were worthy of grading, had graded stuff which leads me to believe there was a reason the ungraded cards were ungraded. As for nice raw stuff, people are always walking into the show and selling to dealers, but they don't put that stuff out for sale, they send it in to get graded themselves.

I agree there are a ton of OPC cards still socked away in closets up in Canada. As for the pre-66, I feel the cards are out there, but not in high grade. I do see more and more hockey being graded with the prices they are going for.

Tom

Basilone

Hey Teemu....shoot me an email and let me know where you are in Ohio....you have quite a hockey collection!

John

aro13

John - The same dealers have most of the high end 50's and 60's cards. Harvey (AJ Cards), Len (Platinum Promotions), John (4PlaySportscards) and Gerry (Gerry's Sportscards) have quite a few graded and some ungraded. I looked pretty carefully at the show and there were very few cards that I thought would grade out at 8 and better. Len has a great selection of vintage cards but I was hesitant to buy some because they were borderline 6, 7 grade or 8 OC material. A lot of the dealers do not like to sell graded cards at the show because "they can get more on ebay". At this show I saw some graded material but the prices were 1.5 X SMR in US funds at a minimum.

dstudeba

A bit off topic, but are there any cards of Hobey Baker?

I grew up skating in Hobey Baker Rink (Princeton University) so I thought it would be neat to pick one up. I do understand if they exist they would go for a pretty penny.

Boopotts

Aro-

I looked over Len's stuff as well, and while he did have some clean '71 Topps for sale (an Esposito and an Orr spring to mind), I agree that most of it was definitely in the Ex-nrmt range. The only raw stuff I picked up that was of any consequence was some '61 York Yellow Backs, and a deckle Gordie Howe that I think will grade an 8. There was certainly tons of raw ex-nrmt star cards, of all years, but I saw virtually no nrmt-mt+ stars that weren't already slabbed.

Grading might not have really 'caught on' yet in Canada, but it appears as though it's caught on enough.

brumbach

Hobey Baker page from the US Hocket Hall of Fame.

(For those unfamiliar with the area, Wissahickon is actually within Philadelphia county, immediately outside of the city.)

Also, according to Beckett's site, Baker only has four major issues, all of which are modern.

1983 Hall of Fame Postcards Hobey Baker B2
1985-87 Hall of Fame Cards Hobey Baker 17
1992-93 Hall of Fame Legends Hobey Baker 6
1995-96 AHCA The Inspiration-Hobey Baker 2

>I have nothing of relevance to contribute concerning the availability or surplus or vintage hockey as it relates to this thread though

GoSoxBoSox

<< <i>A bit off topic, but are there any cards of Hobey Baker?

I grew up skating in Hobey Baker Rink (Princeton University) so I thought it would be neat to pick one up. I do understand if they exist they would go for a pretty penny. >>





There are no Hobey Baker cards from his playing days ...mostly because he was never a "pro". He was an amateur. Anyway, the only card I know of is the 1983 Hall of Fame Postcards as they were called. They aren't really postcards. They're actually the same size as regular sports cards and made from roughly the same stock thinkness as the early Donruss cards.

I'll post a picture of it later tonight if you want me too. It's not the card in the link above.

goodriddance189

<< <i> Also, I picked up a very, very clean raw '61-'62 Jacque Plante York Yellow Back while at the Toronto show this weekend. It's going to PSA this week, and I'll let you know what it grades at (if you're interested). >>



boopotts, i would definitely be interested in that York Plante card. let me know what it grades, cause ill buy it, esp if its in psa 7 or higher.

dstudeba

Thanks for the replies on the Baker. I was worried about that since I recall (from the Plaque at the rink and a SI article a few years back) that he died in an airplane crash at a young age.

I would love to see a scan of the card if you get a chance. Thanks!

TurbosHockey

Ah finally a subject near to my heart. I have posted here many times about hockey and must say that OPC is very difficult to come by. I am a transplanted Canadian living in the STATE of HOCKEY (Minnesota) and finding any hockey that is older than 1990 is next to impossible. Sure there is Topps at most of the shows, but when I ask about OPC they laugh and say that I must be from Canada. I am sure it is not just the accent. When I do find some, what they classify as Nrmt and above is a joke and when you question them on it the dealers act like you are intensionally trying to show them up.

When I was living in Winnipeg most of the shows had tons of singles but since OPC was so common the care that people took with the common players was not very good. Also since hockey is such an institution up there alot of kids in the 70's and 80's would put the star cards from other teams that they did not like in the spokes of the bikes. Being a Jets fan I know I killed about 3 Gretzky and Messier rookies this way. My dad still goes to car shows today in Winnipeg looking for things for me but says the pickings are slim. Anything worth grading has been or else it is way over priced. I am affraid we are destined to a long life of suffering fellow OPC Collectors.

Cheers,
Darren

goodriddance189

i think a lot of the reason that hockey cards are hard to find in high grade is, unlike baseball, the "boom" didnt hit until the 1990. with several new card lines, the first Beckett, etc, people finally started taking cards seriously as investments. while i didnt collect hockey until 1990, i assume this is part of the reason (the same can be said for baseball and football). baseball cards were though of as serious money even in the 80s, and treated as such. add to that the regular OPC condition problems, and truly mint pre 1989 raw and graded cards are hard to come by

jerster

I bought some cards at the expo in toronto raw and graded. Picked up some 63/64 graded for under smr. Picked up a few raw hockey cards which I will have graded that have a legitimate shot at PSA 8. Granted- a lot of what I saw was psa 6-7. However, I am looking for psa 7+ for a couple sets so that was just fine with me.

Jerster

80sToyguy

I'm not an expert by any means guys and I've only posted on here a few times, but I think really it comes down to population. When O-Pee-Chee were filling in orders for hockey cards every year they were basing their numbers on a population of 30 million (Canada). When Topps were doing they're orders (although they were intentionally making less because the States has generally regarded hockey last out of the 4 major sports) they were using a 300 million population report. Even if you search ebay now for early 70's hockey you will always find major stashes of NM-Mt Topps, but never more than a few of the same OPC. They will always be scarce in comparison and I still believe they are a very safe investment and will be for years to come. We've only begun to scratch the surface of what these cards one day may command.
Good luck with your sets.
Jay