I could not agree with you more about crossovers not having any guarantees. I am a believer in buying the card not the holder grade, regardless who graded the card. I also think the collector needs to do his homework to know what each grading company looks for in each grade. You can’t just read the companies exemplars and think you know what they are looking for. From what I have read on this board most collectors think a card can be 70-30 front centering and get a PSA 8. If a card measures 70-30 the card would have to have all the attributes of a pack fresh PSA 9. The actual centering from what I have learned for a PSA normal 8 must be 67-33 or better. I have only tried to cross one card from a Global to PSA and was very successful. It was a 1961 Topps Mays crossed from a GAI 8.5 to a PSA 9.
My feeling is when I pay as much as I do for a card and all I can afford for a card I better know the most I can know or it is my little red wagon.
I think boards like this help educate us all. Yes I read the SGC and the Network 54 boards. I have learned from all three boards. Hopefully GAI will have a board someday so I can learn even more. I will say that the shows I have attended where GAI has set up they are more than willing to educate and explain their grades. I purchased one of their cards in an 8. I thought the card could upgrade to a 9. Their grader whose name I think was Sean showed me why it was not a 9. What was most impressive was that he listened to what I had to say and he decided without any coaxing from me that the card did meet GAI's standards for an 8.5. Needless to say I was very impressed with this gentleman’s professionalism. I would have been without the upgrade.
You know Mantlefan, I respect both companies as both have good things going for them. I do believe GAI is gaining rapid support and I would not be suprised to see GAI cards out sell PSA's in the near future. As for Rocchi & Baker being desperate for a foothole in the industry, why is it that most of the "top" graders in the industry left the so called leader in the industry for GAI? Probably the same reason those two left. Once Rocchi sold and the company went public it was a whole new ballgame. You have some investors that don't have a single clue about card grading or the hobby industry itself. It's hard to run a company and make the needed changes without a bunch of fat cat investors telling you what you can and can't do.
Now that they have started a new company they can make the changes that need to be made in the grading industry.
Let's see how innovative GAI has been.
1. Look at the holder. The flip with the description at the top of the holder was great. Now you no longer have to grab a stack of holders out of a box just to find that one card. You can go right to it.
2. Pack grading and authentication. I think that needs no explanation.
3. Half point grading scale. It was much needed and PSA could never switch as it would anger too many of their customers and throw a wrench in the cards values and Set Registry.
4. Exemplar Service. I think its great that they offer a service to offer a second grade to a already graded card. Hey, two is always better than one. Wouldn't you be more comfortable and willing to buy a card that was certified by 2 grading companies? Do I see PSA ever going to that? Probably not.
5. No membership. If I want to have a card graded why do I have to pay $99 to become a member? I was at the PSA booth in Chicago over the weekend when I overheard a customer complaining that he would have to spend $99 to get his $25 card graded. He stated he had no need for a monthly price guide as he could pick one up every
Those are just a few things that GAI has introduced in their short time in existance. I know that GAI has a new updated web site and will soon offer a graded card value report as well as a message board.
PSA is still a very strong and respectable company and this forum that they provide is great tool for the hobby but things like the WIGWAG incident and their relative quiet response does not help them. I know that they are in a tough situation with that, but their customers deserve better than what they have shown. Too many people have alot of money invested in their services.
I am not bashing PSA as everyone knows its better to always have more than one service. Competition is good as keeps the companies on their toes.
In the December Mastronet Auction there is a 1951 PSA 9 Bowman Willie Mays. In the August Mastronet auction an SGC and GAI 9 sold for $45,960. It will be interesting to see if the PSA version sells for more or less than the GAI version.
<< <i>In the December Mastronet Auction there is a 1951 PSA 9 Bowman Willie Mays. In the August Mastronet auction an SGC and GAI 9 sold for $45,960. It will be interesting to see if the PSA version sells for more or less than the GAI version. >>
Well -- let's remember the context here, though. How many people do you personally know in the hobby that regularly spend over $40,000 on a single card? I can count those people on two hands (though there are more -- the frequency of their purchases are rare). Now, how many MINT 9 (GAI, PSA and/or SGC) Willie Mays cards have transacted in the last few years -- the answer is a lot. Not a dozen -- but five or six of them? Quite a few. Now, how many people do you know willing to spend over $40,000 on a Willie Mays rookie card that don't already have one?
Bottom line: My thoughts are that the market is fairly saturated right now with Willie Mays MINT 9 rookie cards. Most of those that wanted one have one. Though there will always be a market for the card -- the top four or five bidders are out of the equation because they've gotten one. Expectation is that price will settle down.
Just my thoughts.
MS
I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
I personally don't think it matters who brings a new registry up. The fact is...it's too late. Many of the big collectors are way too committed to PSA's registry to cross-over now. That would be an enormous price tag for an enormous amount of people. Am I right Jim Crandell or am I right?
Any newbies that want to start sets on a registry are going to go where the real competition is. We all know that's with PSA. That said, high grade PSA holdered commons will continue to bring the most at auction. Nobody will change my mind on that.
Tom
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"
I am pleasantly surprised at all the smart comments from collectors that I have never noticed before. I hope the are all different people.
Tom,
I thought I had heard that one could enter other graders cards in the gai registry. Thus, we may see more mixed sets entered there.
I can't imagine re-entering all my sets in the gai registry. Saying that I remain open to having sets graded by gai in the future--perhaps using their exemplar program. Charlie has crossed over several sets and he is the premeir vintage card collector in the world.
Wow, Not the direction I expected this post to go but extremely interesting.... to say the least..... Here are some of my thoughts....
Chew,
Yes the 52 & 53 Bowman MAntles did very well especially when you consider the economy right now (although I think we have turned the corner there).... I thought they went for a very strong price. Was it because they were in GAI holder ? Perhaps..... I just went back and looked at the images in Mile High's Catalog. Those were some extremely nice cards. I can not prove it but my gut tells me they probably would have gone for a premium in any of the big 3 holders (PSA,SGC,GAI), Someone skirted the issue but did not say it directly but I will: Some one bought the card and not the holder. My gut also tells me that the card will probably be at PSA for crossover with a min grade requirement of PSA 9. Will it cross? Looking at the image in the catalog I would say yes but one can not always go by the image. I also think the highest premium for these cards would have been in a PSA holder ......
I agree that GAI is a quality grading company. I applaud many of their innovations they have been a breath of fresh air in what was a very stale industry. Pack grading in terms of promotional value and thinking outside the box was a master stroke. But what kind of revenue stream will it provide long term? Again I can not prove it but my gut tells it me it is a short term niche that will burn very brightly for a only a couple of years and then begin to fade away.... (Kind of reminds me of the Wine Cooler Category - remember Bartles and Jaymes,Seagrams and California Cooler ? Hot as the blazes years ago ... When was the last time you saw someone drinking one?)
I do not know why you think half-grades were innovative I believe SGC and Becket were doing half grades long before GAI.
Do not get the exemplar thing but hey if you need double authentication and you feel it enhances the value of your card Great!
As to a superior holder, I will give you the point that GAI has a great looking holder. Is it the best in the industry? Not in my opinion. I would rate the holders in terms of aesthetics as follows: 1.) SGC 2.) GAI and 3.) PSA . (That would be an interesting Poll to run). But a superior product does not gaurantee success in the market place. Ever hear about Sony Betamax?
One final point on innovation.... Innovation is great. Talent is great. GAI has both .... In fact they appear to have an abundance of both. PSA also has very innovative ideas as of late: Large format grading Turkey T3's etc, ticket grading, strip card grading. They are also much more innovative when it comes to their marketing: Set Registry, Collector forums(did SGc or GAI have a question/answer session at the Nationals.) BY the way the $10 - 5 day grading is a master stroke idea that has long term legs in terms of margin enhancement and excitement factor..... I have not seen much innovation out of SGc lately any lurkers here who could help me out?
I have also seen some very innovative companies not succeed very well..... Apple comes to mind
More importantly , I think GAI grades cards very well. For that matter so do SGC and PSA . I think Mike Schmidt hit the nail on the head they all have their quirks and differences. But I truly believe that they all do a very admirable job at grading cards.
Finally , Lets talk about market share ... IN the vintage category PSa is an 800 LB Gorilla. I would estimate market shares as follows PSA - 60% Becket - 15% SGC 10% GAI 5% and all others are 5%. PSA 's lead is large but not insurmountable. This has happened in other industries (Beer and Wines some to mind) in the 1970's the number one beer in the US was Schaffer. It had a market share of around 20%. Today SHaffer is an also ran and Budweisser comands well over 50% of the entire US Beer market. Same thing happened in the wine business to Italian Swiss Colony. I do not see this happening to PSA but hey you never know....
One thing I do not get about this industry is why do most dealers only support one grading company? You lose a lot of collectors who might only collect PSA , SGC or GAI slabs. Strange I know of no other business where one would willingly give 90+% of their business to one supplier. The only reason I can see why one would do this is that it is easier and more profitable for them to sell PSA cards.
Just my .02
Jeff
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass... it's about learning to dance in the rain.
In order to be a successful business, do you need to be #1? Pepsi Cola is pretty successful, although I prefer Coke. There does seem to be more and more GAI cards on the market - if they do get crossed to PSA, GAI still got paid for the initial grading. There have been crosses from PSA to GAI as well. If and when the GAI registry does comes out, I would expect even more GAI cards on the market.
Even though I prefer Coke, every now and then I do choose Pepsi. And yes, it still is just as refreshing only with a different taste.
Luxury lives!!! I haven't seen a post from you for a while but I knew you were lurking.
I understand everyone's points about GAI being a quality outfit, but I just can't see anyone taking over PSA as the #1 seed unless PSA does something to screw up. As long as their prices are competitive and can keep the service standards up it's their game to lose.
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"
customer service is also an important point when all else is equal. even if gai and psa cards arebringing the same money, gai does not have the customer service and procedures in place yet. you can complain all you want about psa but when you send in an order : 1.) gets logged the same day received and you get notified by email 2.) when grades are available , you get notified 3.) you are notified when shipped
here's an example I sent 1 order to psa and a pack order to gai that were both received last thursday in california. the psa order was logged and entered on thursday , the gai order was not logged until late yesterday , when I called yesterday afternoon I was told they were at a show and were logging in the everything from the past few days today.
my order did get entered and they actually posted my 5 day submission yesterday, but if they want to be recognized as a 1st class outfit, I think they need to have the structure in place to make things seem more automated and organized. they may be organized behind the scenes but we don't see that.
I don't see anyone taking over the #1 spot either, but I do not think that is GAI's gameplan for now. I see PSA and GAI as the two companies to use and I like having the alternative.
Pack Collector- I agree with your post completely. Every submission I've made to PSA has been logged and graded on time (or usually before) every single time. With GAI the order was late, they couldn't tell me where it was, and 5 days after I recieved it online still had it as pending. Add to this I sent payment for the fees listed on their website and someone called me to tell me those were the old rates and I'd now have to pay $5 more per pack, even though old rate was on the site at that very moment. They are obviously catering to dealers, but how do those free trips to Las Vegas benefit me? PSA, like all companies, certainly has room for improvement, but in my experience they are far ahead of a weak field on a customer service basis.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
As much of this post is related to the Mantles, I thought I would chime in as I was the high bidder in the Superior Auction for one of the Mantles mentioned in this thread (at $8,500) and I was just outbid on both of the Mantles in the Mile High Card auction. For me, I bid on the two GAI cards to cross over and was even willing to pay more for the GAI cards because the cards in the scans looked better in the GAI holders, particularly the 53 Bowman GAI 9 with its sharp left edge whereas in most 53 Bowman Mantles the edge has a bit of a rough cut (at least the ones I have seen). But I was not willing to pay a huge premium just for that and so I dropped out of the bidding at 13k.
Not that this means much, but for me (and the person who seemed to have a lot to do with setting the prices on the cards mentioned in this thread) the most important thing in this case was the card itself and the fact that it was a respected enough grading company to know that I am not going to get a fradulent or trimmed card. My intent if I won the GAI auctions, however, was to cross them to PSA.
All the best
Chris
Collector of baseball PSA sets from the 1970's & hockey rookie cards; big New York Rangers fan (particularly now that they are sleeping with the enemy with Holik and Kaspiritus). Also starting to collect 53 Bowman Color as I think they are the most beautiful cards I have seen.
<< <i> I will say that the shows I have attended where GAI has set up they are more than willing to educate and explain their grades. I purchased one of their cards in an 8. I thought the card could upgrade to a 9. Their grader whose name I think was Sean showed me why it was not a 9. What was most impressive was that he listened to what I had to say and he decided without any coaxing from me that the card did meet GAI's standards for an 8.5. Needless to say I was very impressed with this gentleman’s professionalism. I would have been without the upgrade. >>
This should never have happened. This is exactly what is wrong with some grading companies.
No matter how much "coaxing" or who is doing the coaxing, a company like GAI should never change its assessment of a trading card when a collector or dealer pressures it to do so. Rather than pander to influential collectors or dealers, GAI should stand firm on its professional opinions. Indeed, it was very disturbing to read that this kind of behavior still goes on today.
Chris....thanks for the info. I wonder who got the GAI Mantles?
Chew...I understand your point as well as Koby's. The problem is that grading is a subjective process...one grader's 8 is another's 8.5. If the person who called Koby's card an "8" had discussed his reasoning with "Sean", the card might have remained an "8". If GAI only uses one grader per card, their grades will be subject to frequent criticism and frequent changes [as this case illustrates]. PSA, we were recently assured by Joe Orlando, has 2 graders check each card. This provides for more uniformity.
BTW...I can't get through on the GAI website. Are they still in business?
I don't know the full details of it , but wasn't the psa 10 71 rose bumped up from a 9? This was pointed out in another thread so I am speaking on 3rd hand info.
Just like Frank says, there is not one grader at each company so there can definately be differences in opinion at the same company, psa ,gai sgc or anyone
If you have ever been to a show where GAI grades you would know that they have two graders grading every card. They grade out in the open.
To my knowledge every legitimate grading company changes grades if they think they have erred. I have had grades changed by PSA also. The major difference was that no one ever sat down with me and wanted me to know why a card was graded a certain grade.
I would have no idea why you can't reach GAI. I doubt they are out of business. From what a dealer told me GAI just hired the senior grader that just left PSA.
Again I would ask any one, if you made a mistake in your job wouldn't you want to correct it?
"PSA, we were recently assured by Joe Orlando, has two graders check each crard".
Frank--while Joe may say this, according to people who are in a position to know, in the vast majority of cases one of these people is a verifier who reviews the card after it is already is graded and slabbed.
<< <i>I don't know the full details of it , but wasn't the psa 10 71 rose bumped up from a 9? This was pointed out in another thread so I am speaking on 3rd hand info. >>
<< <i>I don't know the full details of it , but wasn't the psa 10 71 rose bumped up from a 9? This was pointed out in another thread so I am speaking on 3rd hand info. >>
yes >>
Things like that should never happen.
Special treatment, favors, cronyism, threats from large collectors, threats from dealers.....all of these factors should not play a role in the grade determination by GAI or PSA.
Of course, companies can make mistakes, and of course mistakes need to be corrected. However, is one collector demanding his card be bumped from GAI 8 to GAI 8.5 really appropriate? Was such a small incremental difference really a "mistake" in the first place? The grading criterias should be technical and objective but there are subjective components to the grading of trading cards as well. The distinction between GAI 8 and GAI 8.5 may not even be that large.
I have no problem with the grade being bumped up if the situation warrants it and I am glad that you got what you needed from GAI. I still disagree with the way it was handled. Cards should have to be sent in to GAI for review if collector/dealer does not agree with the grade. If the card was graded too harshly in the first place, the card should have been resubmitted for review. The situation could have been rectified that way. To have someone sit down with dealer/collector puts too much of a human element in this process and would taint the process.
Are you telling me if you make a mistake in your business, you do not do everything you can do to correct the mistake?
I know my boss would fire me if I did not do my best to rectify the situation.
IM sorry but I applaud the grader for admitting the mistake.
Thanks
H.Walker >>
Chew,
That is exactly the problem. Assigning a grade to a trading card should never never be a business decision.
I feel that this situation is more analagous to teacher in an exclusive private school assigning a grade to one of its students. If a parent (who also happens to have donated money to the school for construction of a library) thinks that his or her child's Mathematics level is that of an A student rather than the C grade on the report card, he is certainly entitled to sit down with the teacher. However, the process is flawed if the teacher bends to pressure and changes the grade to an A. It would be equally wrong if the teacher and parent works out a compromise and the student receives a grade of B for the semester's Math class.
The school and the teacher should never have to change its professional assessment to please the parent no matter how many libraries or swimming pools the family will donate to the school.
Similarly, GAI should never assign grades to make larger collectors and larger dealers happy, no matter how many submissions it means for them for the future.
<< <i>I feel that this situation is more analagous to teacher in an exclusive private school assigning a grade to one of its students. If a parent (who also happens to have donated money to the school for construction of a library) thinks that his or her child's Mathematics level is that of an A student rather than the C grade on the report card, he is certainly entitled to sit down with the teacher. However, the process is flawed if the teacher bends to pressure and changes the grade to an A. It would be equally wrong if the teacher and parent works out a compromise and the student receives a grade of B for the semester's Math class. >>
I got a speeding ticket, and was in court last week. Pig said I was going 75. I said 55. We agreed to 65. That's how life works - we agreed to a number NEITHER of us felt was right. But we both felt happy with the result.
Here, it's not even a case that a grader is giving a grade he doesn't agree with. He reassessed the card, and made a determination. What's the difference between an 8 and 8.5? I'll bet if the SAME grader graded the SAME 100 cards, he wouldn't grade them the same every time. Even if he graded them the next day!! So why make the assumption that it was a matter of pressure that was applied to change the grade?
I think we should just crack out all our cards and sell them raw.
<< <i>I don't know the full details of it , but wasn't the psa 10 71 rose bumped up from a 9? This was pointed out in another thread so I am speaking on 3rd hand info. >>
yes >>
Things like that should never happen.
Special treatment, favors, cronyism, threats from large collectors, threats from dealers.....all of these factors should not play a role in the grade determination by GAI or PSA.
Of course, companies can make mistakes, and of course mistakes need to be corrected. However, is one collector demanding his card be bumped from GAI 8 to GAI 8.5 really appropriate? Was such a small incremental difference really a "mistake" in the first place? The grading criterias should be technical and objective but there are subjective components to the grading of trading cards as well. The distinction between GAI 8 and GAI 8.5 may not even be that large.
I have no problem with the grade being bumped up if the situation warrants it and I am glad that you got what you needed from GAI. I still disagree with the way it was handled. Cards should have to be sent in to GAI for review if collector/dealer does not agree with the grade. If the card was graded too harshly in the first place, the card should have been resubmitted for review. The situation could have been rectified that way. To have someone sit down with dealer/collector puts too much of a human element in this process and would taint the process. >>
I am far from a big time collector. My collection totals at the present time 236 graded cards. 188 PSA, 36 GAI and 12 SGC cards.
PSA, GAI and SGC do not know me from Adam
Your scenario assumes that two parties understand that something evil is about to happen.
This was obviously not the case in my situation.
From what I have heard GAI will sit down with anyone and help educate and discuss his or her grades. I have been told that this not the exception but the rule.
As a small time collector I find this very refreshing. I am not as cynical as some seem to be. I don't believe that any of the big three have graders being paid off to change grades.
I do not believe backroom deals are given out to large collectors or dealers. If this is something you actually believe, then you can render every one of our graded cards worthless.
I am not naive enough to believe that if big revenue producing collector or dealer has a card that sits on the fence of being one grade or another that the card will end up with the higher grade.
As long as GAI will sit down with you, me and anyone else, then I consider this excellent customer service. This is a company that wants to communicate and educate hobby goers.
I would think we would all welcome this from whatever companies we choose to do business with.
Comments
I could not agree with you more about crossovers not having any guarantees. I am a believer in buying the card not the holder grade, regardless who graded the card.
I also think the collector needs to do his homework to know what each grading company looks for in each grade. You can’t just read the companies exemplars and think you know what they are looking for. From what I have read on this board most collectors think a card can be 70-30 front centering and get a PSA 8. If a card measures 70-30 the card would have to have all the attributes of a pack fresh PSA 9. The actual centering from what I have learned for a PSA normal 8 must be 67-33 or better. I have only tried to cross one card from a Global to PSA and was very successful. It was a 1961 Topps Mays crossed from a GAI 8.5 to a PSA 9.
My feeling is when I pay as much as I do for a card and all I can afford for a card I better know the most I can know or it is my little red wagon.
I think boards like this help educate us all. Yes I read the SGC and the Network 54 boards. I have learned from all three boards. Hopefully GAI will have a board someday so I can learn even more. I will say that the shows I have attended where GAI has set up they are more than willing to educate and explain their grades. I purchased one of their cards in an 8. I thought the card could upgrade to a 9. Their grader whose name I think was Sean showed me why it was not a 9. What was most impressive was that he listened to what I had to say and he decided without any coaxing from me that the card did meet GAI's standards for an 8.5. Needless to say I was very impressed with this gentleman’s professionalism. I would have been without the upgrade.
H. Walker
Now that they have started a new company they can make the changes that need to be made in the grading industry.
Let's see how innovative GAI has been.
1. Look at the holder. The flip with the description at the top of the holder was great. Now you no longer have to grab a stack of holders out of a box just to find that one card. You can go right to it.
2. Pack grading and authentication. I think that needs no explanation.
3. Half point grading scale. It was much needed and PSA could never switch as it would anger too many of their customers and throw a wrench in the cards values and Set Registry.
4. Exemplar Service. I think its great that they offer a service to offer a second grade to a already graded card. Hey, two is always better than one. Wouldn't you be more comfortable and willing to buy a card that was certified by 2 grading companies? Do I see PSA ever going to that? Probably not.
5. No membership. If I want to have a card graded why do I have to pay $99 to become a member? I was at the PSA booth in Chicago over the weekend when I overheard a customer complaining that he would have to spend $99 to get his $25 card graded. He stated he had no need for a monthly price guide as he could pick one up every
Those are just a few things that GAI has introduced in their short time in existance. I know that GAI has a new updated web site and will soon offer a graded card value report as well as a message board.
PSA is still a very strong and respectable company and this forum that they provide is great tool for the hobby but things like the WIGWAG incident and their relative quiet response does not help them. I know that they are in a tough situation with that, but their customers deserve better than what they have shown. Too many people have alot of money invested in their services.
I am not bashing PSA as everyone knows its better to always have more than one service. Competition is good as keeps the companies on their toes.
86 1951 Bowman Willie Mays #305 MINT 9 $65,550.00
<< <i>In the December Mastronet Auction there is a 1951 PSA 9 Bowman Willie Mays. In the August Mastronet auction an SGC and GAI 9 sold for $45,960. It will be interesting to see if the PSA version sells for more or less than the GAI version. >>
Well -- let's remember the context here, though. How many people do you personally know in the hobby that regularly spend over $40,000 on a single card? I can count those people on two hands (though there are more -- the frequency of their purchases are rare). Now, how many MINT 9 (GAI, PSA and/or SGC) Willie Mays cards have transacted in the last few years -- the answer is a lot. Not a dozen -- but five or six of them? Quite a few. Now, how many people do you know willing to spend over $40,000 on a Willie Mays rookie card that don't already have one?
Bottom line: My thoughts are that the market is fairly saturated right now with Willie Mays MINT 9 rookie cards. Most of those that wanted one have one. Though there will always be a market for the card -- the top four or five bidders are out of the equation because they've gotten one. Expectation is that price will settle down.
Just my thoughts.
MS
Any newbies that want to start sets on a registry are going to go where the real competition is. We all know that's with PSA. That said, high grade PSA holdered commons will continue to bring the most at auction. Nobody will change my mind on that.
Tom
Tom,
I thought I had heard that one could enter other graders cards in the gai registry. Thus, we may see more mixed sets entered there.
I can't imagine re-entering all my sets in the gai registry. Saying that I remain open to having sets graded by gai in the future--perhaps using their exemplar program. Charlie has crossed over several sets and he is the premeir vintage card collector in the world.
Jim
Chew,
Yes the 52 & 53 Bowman MAntles did very well especially when you consider the economy right now (although I think we have turned the corner there).... I thought they went for a very strong price. Was it because they were in GAI holder ? Perhaps..... I just went back and looked at the images in Mile High's Catalog. Those were some extremely nice cards. I can not prove it but my gut tells me they probably would have gone for a premium in any of the big 3 holders (PSA,SGC,GAI), Someone skirted the issue but did not say it directly but I will: Some one bought the card and not the holder. My gut also tells me that the card will probably be at PSA for crossover with a min grade requirement of PSA 9. Will it cross? Looking at the image in the catalog I would say yes but one can not always go by the image. I also think the highest premium for these cards would have been in a PSA holder ......
I agree that GAI is a quality grading company. I applaud many of their innovations they have been a breath of fresh air in what was a very stale industry. Pack grading in terms of promotional value and thinking outside the box was a master stroke. But what kind of revenue stream will it provide long term? Again I can not prove it but my gut tells it me it is a short term niche that will burn very brightly for a only a couple of years and then begin to fade away.... (Kind of reminds me of the Wine Cooler Category - remember Bartles and Jaymes,Seagrams and California Cooler ? Hot as the blazes years ago ... When was the last time you saw someone drinking one?)
I do not know why you think half-grades were innovative I believe SGC and Becket were doing half grades long before GAI.
Do not get the exemplar thing but hey if you need double authentication and you feel it enhances the value of your card Great!
As to a superior holder, I will give you the point that GAI has a great looking holder. Is it the best in the industry? Not in my opinion. I would rate the holders in terms of aesthetics as follows: 1.) SGC 2.) GAI and 3.) PSA . (That would be an interesting Poll to run). But a superior product does not gaurantee success in the market place. Ever hear about Sony Betamax?
One final point on innovation.... Innovation is great. Talent is great. GAI has both .... In fact they appear to have an abundance of both.
PSA also has very innovative ideas as of late: Large format grading Turkey T3's etc, ticket grading, strip card grading. They are also much more innovative when it comes to their marketing: Set Registry, Collector forums(did SGc or GAI have a question/answer session at the Nationals.) BY the way the $10 - 5 day grading is a master stroke idea that has long term legs in terms of margin enhancement and excitement factor..... I have not seen much innovation out of SGc lately any lurkers here who could help me out?
I have also seen some very innovative companies not succeed very well..... Apple comes to mind
More importantly , I think GAI grades cards very well. For that matter so do SGC and PSA . I think Mike Schmidt hit the nail on the head they all have their quirks and differences. But I truly believe that they all do a very admirable job at grading cards.
Finally , Lets talk about market share ... IN the vintage category PSa is an 800 LB Gorilla. I would estimate market shares as follows PSA - 60% Becket - 15% SGC 10% GAI 5% and all others are 5%. PSA 's lead is large but not insurmountable. This has happened in other industries (Beer and Wines some to mind) in the 1970's the number one beer in the US was Schaffer. It had a market share of around 20%. Today SHaffer is an also ran and Budweisser comands well over 50% of the entire US Beer market. Same thing happened in the wine business to Italian Swiss Colony. I do not see this happening to PSA but hey you never know....
One thing I do not get about this industry is why do most dealers only support one grading company? You lose a lot of collectors who might only collect PSA , SGC or GAI slabs. Strange I know of no other business where one would willingly give 90+% of their business to one supplier. The only reason I can see why one would do this is that it is easier and more profitable for them to sell PSA cards.
Just my .02
Jeff
Even though I prefer Coke, every now and then I do choose Pepsi. And yes, it still is just as refreshing only with a different taste.
I understand everyone's points about GAI being a quality outfit, but I just can't see anyone taking over PSA as the #1 seed unless PSA does something to screw up. As long as their prices are competitive and can keep the service standards up it's their game to lose.
customer service is also an important point when all else is equal. even if gai and psa cards arebringing the same money, gai does not have the customer service and procedures in place yet. you can complain all you want about psa but when you send in an order :
1.) gets logged the same day received and you get notified by email
2.) when grades are available , you get notified
3.) you are notified when shipped
here's an example I sent 1 order to psa and a pack order to gai that were both received last thursday in california.
the psa order was logged and entered on thursday ,
the gai order was not logged until late yesterday , when I called yesterday afternoon I was told they were at a show and were logging in the everything from the past few days today.
my order did get entered and they actually posted my 5 day submission yesterday, but if they want to be recognized as a 1st class outfit, I think they need to have the structure in place to make things seem more automated and organized. they may be organized behind the scenes but we don't see that.
I believe you greatly underestimated PSA's vintage market share -- 60% seems way too low. I believe it's at least 80%. A good yardstick is eBay.
Skycap
I agree with your post completely. Every submission I've made to PSA has been logged and graded on time (or usually before) every single time. With GAI the order was late, they couldn't tell me where it was, and 5 days after I recieved it online still had it as pending. Add to this I sent payment for the fees listed on their website and someone called me to tell me those were the old rates and I'd now have to pay $5 more per pack, even though old rate was on the site at that very moment. They are obviously catering to dealers, but how do those free trips to Las Vegas benefit me?
PSA, like all companies, certainly has room for improvement, but in my experience they are far ahead of a weak field on a customer service basis.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
That is my biggest fear about the viability of GAI.
Wayne
Good point skycap...as of today, on EBAY:
PSA cards 19,550...89%
SGC cards 1,708......8%
GAI cards 675.........3%
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
Not that this means much, but for me (and the person who seemed to have a lot to do with setting the prices on the cards mentioned in this thread) the most important thing in this case was the card itself and the fact that it was a respected enough grading company to know that I am not going to get a fradulent or trimmed card. My intent if I won the GAI auctions, however, was to cross them to PSA.
All the best
Chris
<< <i>
I will say that the shows I have attended where GAI has set up they are more than willing to educate and explain their grades. I purchased one of their cards in an 8. I thought the card could upgrade to a 9. Their grader whose name I think was Sean showed me why it was not a 9. What was most impressive was that he listened to what I had to say and he decided without any coaxing from me that the card did meet GAI's standards for an 8.5. Needless to say I was very impressed with this gentleman’s professionalism. I would have been without the upgrade.
>>
This should never have happened. This is exactly what is wrong with some grading companies.
No matter how much "coaxing" or who is doing the coaxing, a company like GAI should never change its assessment of a trading card when a collector or dealer pressures it to do so. Rather than pander to influential collectors or dealers, GAI should stand firm on its professional opinions. Indeed, it was very disturbing to read that this kind of behavior still goes on today.
You have to be kidding.
Are you telling me if you make a mistake in your business, you do not do everything you can do to correct the mistake?
I know my boss would fire me if I did not do my best to rectify the situation.
IM sorry but I applaud the grader for admitting the mistake.
Thanks
H.Walker
Chew...I understand your point as well as Koby's. The problem is that grading is a subjective process...one grader's 8 is another's 8.5. If the person who called Koby's card an "8" had discussed his reasoning with "Sean", the card might have remained an "8". If GAI only uses one grader per card, their grades will be subject to frequent criticism and frequent changes [as this case illustrates]. PSA, we were recently assured by Joe Orlando, has 2 graders check each card. This provides for more uniformity.
BTW...I can't get through on the GAI website. Are they still in business?
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
I don't know the full details of it , but wasn't the psa 10 71 rose bumped up from a 9? This was pointed out in another thread so I am speaking on 3rd hand info.
Just like Frank says, there is not one grader at each company so there can definately be differences in opinion at the same company, psa ,gai sgc or anyone
If you have ever been to a show where GAI grades you would know that they have two graders grading every card. They grade out in the open.
To my knowledge every legitimate grading company changes grades if they think they have erred. I have had grades changed by PSA also. The major difference was that no one ever sat down with me and wanted me to know why a card was graded a certain grade.
I would have no idea why you can't reach GAI. I doubt they are out of business. From what a dealer told me GAI just hired the senior grader that just left PSA.
Again I would ask any one, if you made a mistake in your job wouldn't you want to correct it?
Thanks
H. Walker
"PSA, we were recently assured by Joe Orlando, has two graders check each crard".
Frank--while Joe may say this, according to people who are in a position to know, in the vast majority of cases one of these people is a verifier who reviews the card after it is already is graded and slabbed.
Jim
Sure, but make too many mistakes and you're out of a job!
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
<< <i>I don't know the full details of it , but wasn't the psa 10 71 rose bumped up from a 9? This was pointed out in another thread so I am speaking on 3rd hand info. >>
yes
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't know the full details of it , but wasn't the psa 10 71 rose bumped up from a 9? This was pointed out in another thread so I am speaking on 3rd hand info. >>
yes >>
Things like that should never happen.
Special treatment, favors, cronyism, threats from large collectors, threats from dealers.....all of these factors should not play a role in the grade determination by GAI or PSA.
Of course, companies can make mistakes, and of course mistakes need to be corrected. However, is one collector demanding his card be bumped from GAI 8 to GAI 8.5 really appropriate? Was such a small incremental difference really a "mistake" in the first place? The grading criterias should be technical and objective but there are subjective components to the grading of trading cards as well. The distinction between GAI 8 and GAI 8.5 may not even be that large.
I have no problem with the grade being bumped up if the situation warrants it and I am glad that you got what you needed from GAI. I still disagree with the way it was handled. Cards should have to be sent in to GAI for review if collector/dealer does not agree with the grade. If the card was graded too harshly in the first place, the card should have been resubmitted for review. The situation could have been rectified that way. To have someone sit down with dealer/collector puts too much of a human element in this process and would taint the process.
<< <i>Koby
You have to be kidding.
Are you telling me if you make a mistake in your business, you do not do everything you can do to correct the mistake?
I know my boss would fire me if I did not do my best to rectify the situation.
IM sorry but I applaud the grader for admitting the mistake.
Thanks
H.Walker >>
Chew,
That is exactly the problem. Assigning a grade to a trading card should never never be a business decision.
I feel that this situation is more analagous to teacher in an exclusive private school assigning a grade to one of its students. If a parent (who also happens to have donated money to the school for construction of a library) thinks that his or her child's Mathematics level is that of an A student rather than the C grade on the report card, he is certainly entitled to sit down with the teacher. However, the process is flawed if the teacher bends to pressure and changes the grade to an A. It would be equally wrong if the teacher and parent works out a compromise and the student receives a grade of B for the semester's Math class.
The school and the teacher should never have to change its professional assessment to please the parent no matter how many libraries or swimming pools the family will donate to the school.
Similarly, GAI should never assign grades to make larger collectors and larger dealers happy, no matter how many submissions it means for them for the future.
Koby
<< <i>I feel that this situation is more analagous to teacher in an exclusive private school assigning a grade to one of its students. If a parent (who also happens to have donated money to the school for construction of a library) thinks that his or her child's Mathematics level is that of an A student rather than the C grade on the report card, he is certainly entitled to sit down with the teacher. However, the process is flawed if the teacher bends to pressure and changes the grade to an A. It would be equally wrong if the teacher and parent works out a compromise and the student receives a grade of B for the semester's Math class. >>
I got a speeding ticket, and was in court last week. Pig said I was going 75. I said 55. We agreed to 65. That's how life works - we agreed to a number NEITHER of us felt was right. But we both felt happy with the result.
Here, it's not even a case that a grader is giving a grade he doesn't agree with. He reassessed the card, and made a determination. What's the difference between an 8 and 8.5? I'll bet if the SAME grader graded the SAME 100 cards, he wouldn't grade them the same every time. Even if he graded them the next day!! So why make the assumption that it was a matter of pressure that was applied to change the grade?
I think we should just crack out all our cards and sell them raw.
<< <i>That's how life works - >>
Beefcake-
I guess you are right. Doesn't make me feel good about this hobby though.
Koby
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't know the full details of it , but wasn't the psa 10 71 rose bumped up from a 9? This was pointed out in another thread so I am speaking on 3rd hand info. >>
yes >>
Things like that should never happen.
Special treatment, favors, cronyism, threats from large collectors, threats from dealers.....all of these factors should not play a role in the grade determination by GAI or PSA.
Of course, companies can make mistakes, and of course mistakes need to be corrected. However, is one collector demanding his card be bumped from GAI 8 to GAI 8.5 really appropriate? Was such a small incremental difference really a "mistake" in the first place? The grading criterias should be technical and objective but there are subjective components to the grading of trading cards as well. The distinction between GAI 8 and GAI 8.5 may not even be that large.
I have no problem with the grade being bumped up if the situation warrants it and I am glad that you got what you needed from GAI. I still disagree with the way it was handled. Cards should have to be sent in to GAI for review if collector/dealer does not agree with the grade. If the card was graded too harshly in the first place, the card should have been resubmitted for review. The situation could have been rectified that way. To have someone sit down with dealer/collector puts too much of a human element in this process and would taint the process. >>
ALL grading companies do this. Not just GAI.
I am far from a big time collector. My collection totals at the present time 236 graded cards. 188 PSA, 36 GAI and 12 SGC cards.
PSA, GAI and SGC do not know me from Adam
Your scenario assumes that two parties understand that something evil is about to happen.
This was obviously not the case in my situation.
From what I have heard GAI will sit down with anyone and help educate and discuss his or her grades. I have been told that this not the exception but the rule.
As a small time collector I find this very refreshing. I am not as cynical as some seem to be. I don't believe that any of the big three have graders being paid off to change grades.
I do not believe backroom deals are given out to large collectors or dealers. If this is something you actually believe, then you can render every one of our graded cards worthless.
I am not naive enough to believe that if big revenue producing collector or dealer has a card that sits on the fence of being one grade or another that the card will end up with the higher grade.
As long as GAI will sit down with you, me and anyone else, then I consider this excellent customer service. This is a company that wants to communicate and educate hobby goers.
I would think we would all welcome this from whatever companies we choose to do business with.
Thanks
H.Walker