Mile High's Auction
LuxuryWines
Posts: 737 ✭
Any early thoughts? I am currently leading on 6 auctions. I would really like to win at least 2 of them hopefully 3. I thought overall there was a lot of interesting material to look through . Wish I had some serious coin some very nice high end lots I would have loved to gone after but I need to pace myself with Lelands,Sportscards Plus and Superior coming up ... Should be a fun couple of weeks....
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass... it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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Comments
It looks like I was a bit low in my estimate of the 1965 Topps Ernie Banks PSA 10. I thought it would go for $3500-$5500 and it is well over $7k right now.
Dont forget that Mastro bidding begins Dec. 1st......
Yeah!! It's over...I got one killer 9.
mx'er
______________
1961 topps 100%
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
H. Walker
I personally overpaid for a T205 Ed Walsh which is a very nice SGC 80 EXMT.
Brian should be pretty happy with the results. When looking at the prices realized, most of the good stuff was on the high side.
I'm starting to think you're going to be a pest on these auctions by bidding on everything
Am I right?
Lots of spirited competition for the low pop 8's and all 9's.
Did you win the 61 Bankls AS PSA 10 for $4600?
I don't think that most people have had a lot of concern about GAI grading. Whether they will survive is another thing. I think the 3 highest prices were more a reflection of the cards involved, rather than the grading company.
Good luck on the 61's. HAve you registered your set yet?
Rob
Thanks for the welcome Rob
I have not registered yet. I’m not far enough along at this point. I’m sure it will be a slow and tedious task that I look forward to.
Rob you may be right about the three examples.
From what I have read on the board for the past year posters have questioned why anyone would have a card graded by GAI.
The number one reason stated was that GAI cards will not garner the same $$$'s a PSA card will.
With the results of the Mile High auction I think that theory is no longer valid.
I do not follow pre war cards well enough. I think if you go back and check the major auctions for the past year you will find that the two Bowman Mantle cards graded by GAI
proffered more than any of the other grading companies, for the same cards in the same grade.
Rob is there a reason why you think GAI will not stay in business? Seems to me if they have the ingredients for success.
They have quality graders
They have an excellent holder
They have management that has experience in the grading business
They seem to have a low overhead (I do not know this for sure)
They seem to have growing support from dealers and collectors.
They have another income stream from there innovation of pack grading.
In my opinion this is not a company that is sinking, it is a company that is growing and gaining market share.
Rob I am interested in your thoughts and if you have other information that I am not privy to concerning GAI.
Thanks again for the welcome.
H. Walker
Good job on the Ruth Butterfinger- indeed an unusually high example. The Gehrig is less impressive, IMHO--wrinkle on bottom left corner and print lines across top and in top right corner. Still, real hard to go wrong on Lou.
Todd
ebay id: nolemmings
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
Puts someone like me in a pickle. I am leaning towards doing the E90-1 set in PSA slabs but am now thinking that GAI may be the way to go. Holders are nice too.
Thanks,
Ron
This is getting way off topic, so I apologize to others.
As far as GAI, I have no knowledge of their financials. I see a lot of hurdles for not only them, but also for all grading companies.
A very limited market. PSA advertises over 6 million cards graded. And that is over 10 years. I am sure that they are grading more now than 10 years ago, but it is hard to believe they grade more than between 1 and 1.5 million per year.
Modern card grading hold the most long term potential, but seems to be fizzling out. For a couple of years, it seemed to make financial sense to pay to have new cards graded, but with the collapse of modern graded card prices, I think that the companies that used to grade huge number of modern cards have realized that this is not a good long term strategy.
Vintage cards are by definition limited: Initially only star and semistar cards were graded, as grading prices were too high to justify grading commons. Grading prices came down when competetion arose, and as the number of star cards to be graded began to dry up. The only way to encourage grading of commons was to lower the price of grading to a level where it becomes financailly feasible. The Set Registry has greatly spurred grading of comons, but the number of cards available to grade has to dimnish over time. And except for crossovers and people pushing for better grades, cards only get graded once. And they aren't making any new vintage cards.
Most vintage cards being graded today are commons, and GAI does not compete well here, and is very unlikely to be able to overcome PSA's dominance.
Grading prices of $5 to $10 don't provide enough revenue to stay in business unless the volume is large. Just think about what amount of money it takes to pay Rochi, Baker and friends, plus graders, machines, and huge traveling and show costs to go to all of the major shows. Overhead, while no doubt much less than PSA, is still quite large.
Pack grading is a nice niche, but the number of packs is limited, as is the number of people colllecting them.
It is my understanding that GAI gave away a lot of grading to dealers to help them get started, and even with that, when the dealers see what they get for the cards compared to PSA , at least in the commons, they still lose money.
PSA has corrected the problems of slow turnaround and expensive grading, so GAI doesn't reallly have anny competitive advantage to exploit except the reputation of their founders.
GAI I think planned to move very quickly to the top, but it has not happened. They had plans for a Set Registry that never came to fruition, for example.
I just did a search on Ebay with the following results PSA 21,209 items SGC 1,184 items, and GAI 898 items. If after two years and spending all that they do on promotion, they still have only 5% of a small and limited market, then I have concerns that they will be able to survive.
I wanted to wait and see the results from the recently completed Superior auction before I replied to Mantle fans last post here. (Sorry I don't know how to do past quotes)
52 Bowman Mantle GAI 9 Mile High auction = $12.713.25
52 Bowman Mantle PSA 9 Superior auction = $8.625.00
53 Bowman Mantle GAI 9 Mile High auction = $14.424.45
53 Bowman Mantle PSA 9 Superior auction = $8.338.00
As I said earlier this is a major move for GAI. I think that this shows that collectors of high-grade star cards respect what GAI has brought to the market.
From what I can tell more and more collectors and dealers trust GAI's grading standards and the prices that their cards garner.
In my opinion the more respected grading companies that we collectors have to choose from, the better it is for all of us.
I am a believer of not buying the grade or the holder that the card rests in. Always buy the card.
Thanks for listening.
H. Walker
That is interesting--had not checked Mile High results.
Speaking for myself only, I think the quality of grading is very high at GAI. My concern has been the relatively low selling price of GAI 8 versus PSA 8. Perhaps not a wide discrepency when we are comparing star cards but because of the registry, the rest of the cards of PSA sell at much higher prices.
Jim
Not very from what I've seen. I certainly haven't compared results for the recent auctions but I'd love to hear from some of the others that might have. Are there any interesting comparisons between different grading companies for some of the high cards?
How many high grade GAI examples are out there? If there are only a couple...maybe the GAI-only collectors are fighting over the them.
Nice pick-up on the Superior hockey lot. I almost pulled the trigger on that one but just couldn't justify it considering I only wanted the Plante card.
Enjoy it.
Tom
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
I agree with your statement completely. That is why in an earlier post I said until a viable set registry is introduced that all collectors can identify with, PSA will have a monopoly on common cards and registry users. That is why for my 1961 Topps set I will only have PSA cards in my set. That is for the sport of it not the monetary value. I will also consider purchasing GAI and any other companies cards for the purpose of crossover grading by PSA if the card deserves the grade. As I stated in an earlier post when I purchase star cards
I buy and own PSA, GAI and SGC. I consider all three grading companies reliable grading companies. As I always feel you have to buy the card and not just the grade. I think all of the companies make some mistakes and would probably like to have some of the cards they have graded back in there possession. For the most part I think these three companies do a very good job grading.
GoSoxBoSox
The reason I brought these results to the attention of the board members is because in auctions this has not been typical. There have not been many major auctions that have offered such cards. My point is that with these types of results I believe you will see more auction houses use GAI. As I stated farther up in this thread at shows you see allot of GAI cards and from what dealers tell me that sell their product they get SMR prices and better. The dealers that I have spoken with have expressed concern with GAI's results on Ebay. I do think it would be smart if GAI could come up with a marketing strategy to help their sales on ebay. (I have no idea how they would do that) Again with results like the cards in the Mile High auction it might not be to long until GAI's results pick up on Ebay. In my opinion there is a growing confidence amongst collectors and dealers in the GAI product.
Basilone
You question how many high-grade GAI card examples there are? From my experience with some of the dealers that I have dealt with, there are quite a few. I have found these companies and dealers to have many GAI 8, 8.5,9,9.5 and 10's in vintage cards.
Louis Bollman Cards
Andy Madec
Mile High Cards
Shoebox Cards
Bottom Of The Ninth
Piedmont Cards
Craig Roehrig
Dave Forman
Mastro
These are just a few, IM sure there are many more that I do not know of. The group above represents some of the highest profile dealers in the country. I also believe that these dealers use PSA as well and allot of them also choose to offer SGC product as well.
I think as collector we all benefit if these three companies continue to grow.
I sure wish I knew how to use the quote reply here. Any help?
Thanks H. Walker
Are you saying there are alot of 52 & 53 Bowman GAI Mantle 9s...um...okay. So who is buying those GAI cards from the dealers you listed.....I dont know of any. I do keep seeing the same ones in thier catalogs/websites though.
You wrote:
<< <i>The reason I brought these results to the attention of the board members is because in auctions this has not been typical. >>
I agree.
Then you wrote:
<< <i>My point is that with these types of results I believe you will see more auction houses use GAI. >>
If these results are "atypical"....why would people take the risk?
<< <i>what dealers tell me that sell their product they get SMR prices and better. >>
Um...sounds like they are trying to sell you some product. (thats what they do for a living)
Tom-
Thanks....we shall see where I go with these sets. You are the 2ne person who commented in the Plante...must be a popular card.
Chew, be very careful there. I've had several very nice GAI 9 cards which did not crossover. SGC is even worse, since they are so lenient on centering.
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
IM not sure I understand all of your questions but I will try to respond.
To your first question, I do not think there are a lot of 52 and 53 Bowman Mantle 9 GAI examples. What I meant to express and believe I did was there were a lot of high-grade vintage star cards graded 8 or better by GAI. I also thought that was the question you asked me in your last post.
Let me answer your next question with a question. Was it once atypical for graded cards to sell? The answer is yes. I remember when no one would buy a graded card. Then you had a few smart collectors that purchased graded cards, which started a trend. Dealers started having PSA grade some of their cards and other collectors started purchasing them. As confidence in the PSA graded product gained more and more collectors and dealers who said they would never buy a graded card did. GAI already has dealer confidence as shown in my last post. When GAI prices for the same card in the same grades as PSA, sell for $4000 and $6000 more respectably, it will not take long for more collectors and dealers to gain confidence in their product. Do not forget that PSA once dominated the modern market. Once Beckett product started selling for more in the same grade (which was atypical at the time), they quickly took the helm in the modern market. These are just two trends that I think are relevant correlation’s.
You would have to ask those dealers who their customers are. I could not answer that for them. I can only relate a few first hand experiences with you. A month ago I received Shoebox Cards catalogue. I was interested in two GAI cards both graded 8.5 both were priced well in excess of the SMR. I called to ask a few questions about them (I could not to afford both of them) long story short they both had already sold. I guess the East Coast guys got the catalogue before me. So my first hand knowledge is that other collectors are also buying GAI cards from Shoebox Cards. I also saw at a card show that one of the dealers from the list in the previous post sell a 1956 Topps Mantle graded GAI 9.5 for $17.500.00. The collector was a major player in the hobby and is known to have one of the finest Mantle collections. I will not name the dealer or the collector since this was a private sale that I was privy to, only because I was at the dealers booth purchasing a PSA card for my 61 Topps set.
Many of the dealers I mentioned in the last post have been in the card business for over 15 years. I doubt they have not remained in business for this long by buying cards and not selling them. I am sure that if GAI were not profitable for them they would dump them. I also know that many of these dealers add new product of PSA and GAI regularly.
I have tried to respond to your questions the best I can.
Thanks H.Walker
Chew-
Feel free to post your PRO-GAI spin on the GAI chatboard...but Im not sure they even have one.
Personally, I think the dynamics of the graded card market are changing for Stars/HOFers...not so for commons and complete sets. It appears that there are an increasing number of heretics that are compiling collections in more than one holder. In fact, I believe that there are several regular posters on this board that are guilty of this offense.
Scott
Dont you know that Im on PSA's payroll.....is is my job to defend the "mothership".
Chew's purpose on this board is to promote GAI plain and simple...he just covers his tracks by saying that he buys from all 3 companies, etc., etc.. He is not the first to use this approach to promote another grading company.
No one is making disparaging remarks about the company. Personally I think the GAI product is OK. Why are you taking such great efforts to promote GAI on PSA's forum?
Koby
Over the months I have certainly seen a more consistent showing of GAI cards on ebay and the prices realized for the star cards are many times right up there with PSA. In the end I am not sure that David will conquer Goliath but there is more than enough room for 1 or 2 services. Personally I enjoy having the choices.
Ron
The results of GAI 8 cards on eBay are staggering: GAI 8 Completed Auctions
Why would no one have faith in GAI? Do you have any PSA graded cards in your collection that were graded prior to 2002? If so do you have faith in those? I hope so, since Stephen Rocchi and Mike Baker were the ones that ran the show there prior to their departure in 2001. That is what I don't understand. As you may or may not know, Rocchi who started PSA and Baker, the top grader in the industry and PSA head grader for 12 years left PSA and started GAI. It's kind of like saying that Ford Motor Company is the king of the auto industry and Henry Ford leaves to start a new automotive company and people hesitate to buy his cars due to lack of faith in his new companies product. I just don't understand how you can't have faith in the people who pioneered the industry.
In my opinion I think they are the strictest, fairest and most consistent graders in the industry. PSA's graders grading experience doesn't even come close to matching GAI's. GAI now employs most if not all of the top graders in the industry, many of which came from PSA.
With the 3 major vintage grading services now offering x-over services, I think we will see a gradual convergence in the prices realized for their cards. The barrier for crossing a card is now $20 at the most - this is nothing for a big card, but it is a deal breaker for a '68 common in nm/mt. I believe that we are starting to see this in the market right now. In addition, the half grades, particularly the 8.5 grade seems to be generating a lot of interest. Again, interesting times in the hobby and time will tell.
Scott
<< <i>The results of GAI 8 cards on eBay are staggering: GAI 8 Completed Auctions >>
Let's face it. Set Registry creates a lot of demand for the common cards in high grade and nobody's gonna buy these and pay a $10 cross-over fee.
In my opinion people that use GAI for anything other then vintage stars are wasting their money. If they spend a little more to use PSA they'd get a better return on their investment.
I think what mantlefan was saying is that not all cards will cross so if you are buying solely to cross to psa, you could get burned. I don't think he was saying that he doesn't have faith.
I crossed 1 card GAI 8.5 to a PSA 9 by cracking it out. It deserved a 9. I have other GAI stuff that I have bought that I would not crack out because they will not upgrade.
my approach is that I will try to buy with the lower prices and cross. Last week an alcinder rookie gai 8 went for $600 or so , if it crosses , it's a bargain. a 61 topps Jim brown gai 9 $470
These are not prices that makes me want to rush out and send my cards to gai. It looks like some dealers have accepted them , but the end buyers except for the extreme high cards have not. just a few more cents
I found your thoughts and observations interesting. I also find Ruthfan's comments on the money and I agree with srs 1A.
But, Tom and packcollector are also right about the commons.
Discussions like these are among the most enlightening on the board and even PSA will let you post this sort of view.
Jim
Allow me to offer an opinion. I recognize that this is the "PSA Set Registry Forum", so many of you will think my remarks are ill-placed and I have little doubt they will in large part fall on deaf ears. But the fact is there are many collectors, myself included, who don't particularly care at all about any registry--we just want high grade cards. If I'm comfortable that any grading company has the correct grading standards, and I examine the card, I will buy what I want in any holder, with no regard for crossover. I am not alone, by any means.
I for one seek a high grade nm-mt set of 1961 Topps. I have personally examined at least 10,000 of these in my collecting life, and don't need any grader to tell me what an 8 or 9 looks like. Since I do care about authenticity, alteration and doctored scans, I buy graded cards from the Big 3 with some degree of confidence, but not without occasional disappointment. I want a set in 8 equivalent, and if that would put me 75th or 250th on the registry (were I inclined to register at all), then great, and congrats to everyone ahead of me. If my set consisted of 33% PSA, 33% SGC and 33% GAI, that would be absolutely all right by me, and I wouldn't wring my hands on whether to pay a few thousand to have all cards crossed over to one company.
I understand that from a seller's perspective, it would seem advantageous to go with PSA on all post WWII but non-modern commons. Still, there are a number of reasons why a seller may have opted for a different path, eg. grading specials, turn-around times, customer service, perhaps a particulalry good or bad experience with one or more companies--who knows?. I appreciate the opportunity for choice, and frankly, if you feel that others are fools for going with GAI, so what? Isn't that just better for you, since potential competition is spending his dollars on stuff you don't want?
Vive la difference!!
ebay id: nolemmings
If you are submitting for your own personnal set , then the holder is irrelavent but if you are looking to sell then GAI commons are a losers proposition at this point because the truth is the registry drives the price on lower pop cards.
and you are 100% right, if you are buying or adding to a high grade set, the holder doesn't make any difference? the best example that I have seen is dgf's signature line. I hold all holders in my personal collection as I buy them for the card inside
<< <i>for a little clarification on the previous statement , looking at the grading of commons through a sellers/dealers perspective , it does not make any sense to use any company other than PSA in the current environment. GAI 8 commons from the 60's can barely break $5,
<< <i>
PackCollector:
You are correct in your statement -- but the assumption you are implicitly relying on is largely a fallacy. Many collectors will tell you that any card, whether common or star, will in all likelihood be graded differently by each of the three grading companies. A PSA 8 does not equal an SGC 8 does not equal a GAI 8. Sometimes a GAI 8.5 cross to a PSA 9 -- sometimes it would only cross to an SGC 88. There are some implicit subtleties in each grading company's system that do not translate well to the other. So your assumption assumes that a NM/MT card is regarded the same by each of the grading companies. Often times, that is not the case. A good example of this is a card that has poor centering on the reverse. Each company deals with this somewhat differently. As there may be half or full grade differences between each company -- it does not necssarily follow that PSA is the best place for commons.
Just a different perspective...
Here are some results:
1953 Topps PSA 10 GEM MINT #27 Roy Campenella $11,207
1953 Topps GAI 9.5 GEM MINT #27 Roy Campenella $2,659
1935 Goudey PSA 7 NM #5A Babe Ruth $2415
1935 Goudey GAI 7.5 NM+ #5A Babe Ruth $2716
1963 Topps #200 Mickey Mantle PSA 9 $4632
1963 Topps #200 Mickey Mantle GAI 9 $3768
I thought that the other high end GAI cards did fairly well.
I must say I am a little shocked and dismayed. You ask me questions, I assumed you were looking for my thoughts for the questions you asked.Then you accuse me of propagandizing for GAI. Please do not ask me for my thoughts if you have no interest in hearing my answers. I certainly have not personally attacked you in my answers. I have not degraded PSA in any of my answers and I never would.
Davalillo
I agree with you. I thought this was an interesting adult discussion. As I have said from the beginning I agree with yours and others observations regarding commons. I do believe and it looks like some others here do also that when it comes to star cards that GAI and SGC have made major inroads in competing for the dollars spent.
I would appreciate anyone reading the post for the first time to please go back and read all of my past post. I only hope for success to all legitimate grading companies. I think we the collectors are the ones that benefit from their success. Ask the coin collectors they have done quite well with three major companies.
Thanks
H. Walker
In my opinion I think they are the strictest, fairest and most consistent graders in the industry. PSA's graders grading experience doesn't even come close to matching GAI's. GAI now employs most if not all of the top graders in the industry, many of which came from PSA.
Wow! Ruthfan.....I was just relating to Chew to be careful in assuming GAI 9 will crossover to PSA 9. He stated he might be buying GAI for that purpose and I stated that in my experience [about a dozen vintage GAI 9 cards] half of them did not cross over. In several instances, the PSA grader was nice enough to show me why the card wasn't a "9" [small corner ding etc.]. I did not make any statement about my "faith" in GAI.
Now that you mention it, though, you seem very naive about GAI. In starting a new company, Rocchi and Baker are desperate to gain a foothold in the industry. To that end, I would not be surprised to find them relaxing their grading standards to please some of their larger dealers. You might ask yourself why these "pioneers" left PSA in the first place. Better yet, check out the GAI chat room....oh, I see that they don't have one. Never mind.
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
GAI may be small, but most new companies are. I enjoy my PSA collection and I also look at GAI as an alternative for PSA 8's to be crossed over to potential GAI 8.5's. Please do not give the "resale value" argument, as the two players I watch on eBay both realize similar results.
Without a registry they have no chance of competing with psa in the vintage market.
With a registry they still may not compete but become a more viable option.
The SGC registry hasn't really helped them that much but I think that GAI is much more competition than SGC. GAI was everywhere in Chicago while Sgc cards were barely seen.
Wayne
I sent GAI a bulk submission when they first started and I can assure you there was NO GRADING easements. In fact I think they were more strict, I have never had any issues with GAI or PSA,( I always feel I was undergraded,) but to say GAI eased grading to gain customers is not only untrue but not fair to them. I'm sure we all can point out mistakes ( in our opinion ) from both companies.