A storm is brewing....CLOSING UPDATE!!!

cacheman · November 13, 2003 6:43AM

As you may have read in this thread Here I recently won a Goetz medal on ebay. Upon receiving it it became apparent that it was not authentic. I wrote to the seller (whom I had good contact with previously) telling him I didn't think the medal was authentic and that I would like a refund.

Here is his reply:

Hello Scott,

Honestly, I do not know what to think of your emails. Having seen thousands of medals during my time as collector, I can really read the age of a medal by its patina - and the medal you bought is definitely not an aftercast or a replica, which you should know also if you are a serious collector. As I do not see the reason for your dissatisfaction, I have to refuse your request.

Best regards,
XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Now let me get this right, this guy is essentially saying I don't know crap and he does and therefore I have no reason to be given a refund. Why doesn't he see my reason of the medal not being authentic as a valid for the refund request? This person appears to be well known and he will be even more well known if I don't get a refund on this POS medal!!

laurentyvan · November 13, 2003 6:55AM

I hate to say this as an afterthought, but when I saw your original picture I thought to myself that here is a Goetz that doesn't really do it for me. It did look grainy and pebbly, not as tight and finely drawn as most of what you show us. It's sure to be an interesting fight-keep us appraised.

elverno · November 13, 2003 6:58AM

Grrr... Turn us loose on 'em Cacheman!

trozau · November 13, 2003 7:16AM

Sorry to hear about your trouble.

For whatever it's worth, the forum folks would be happy to get it off your hands should you decide to make a giveaway out of it.

cosmicdebris · November 13, 2003 8:04AM

Oh My he has risque the wrath of "S"

cacheman · November 13, 2003 8:06AM

well actually, he DOES sell a lot to other forum members...and we are talking 280 skins here...

Bruce · November 13, 2003 8:35AM

If you were ripped off, give it to them!

nwcs · November 13, 2003 8:46PM

The seller should accept a return regardless if it was their policy. The best business would be to say, "I understand your concerns, please send it back." I don't know why so many sellers want to argue in cases like this.

ccrdragon · November 13, 2003 8:50PM

He shouldn't question your reasons - if he believes that the medal is authentic then he should take it back and have no problems selling it again. I think that he knows as well as you do that it's not and he's playing you for a sucker....

1jester · November 13, 2003 9:09PM

The road is littered with those who've tried to play S.

1957joe · November 13, 2003 9:21PM

tell us who he is so we can trash his name

Steve27 · November 13, 2003 10:40PM

I must say that when I first saw this one I thought it had been made via a sand-casting process, but I didn't know if that was proper or not. Is there a third party expert whose opinion you can get? I would think that as a previous buyer of his material, he wouldn't want to lose you as a customer, but maybe he was happy to get rid of a fake.

cacheman · November 13, 2003 11:37PM

I sent the following email with proposal to him last night (his morning) and have not received an answer. If he has any integrity he will go for it but I'm not holding my breath...

Hello again XXXXXX,

I would like to make a proposal to you. If you genuinely believe that this medal is authentic then you should have no difficulty agrreeing to the following proposal:

I will send the medal to a reputable dealer who is experienced with Goetz large cast bronze pieces for AUTHENTICATION. If the medal comes back as authentic then I would pay the authentication fees and it would end this matter. On the other hand, if it comes back as a counterfeit piece then you would pay all authentication fees and refund ALL of my money.

There are any number of experienced dealers that we can choose from: Karl Stephen's, Inc ( http://www.karlstephensinc.com/ ),
Manfred Olding ( http://www.manfred-olding.de/shop/lagerliste.htm ), Fritz Kuenker ( http://www.kuenker.de/ ), Harald Moeller ( http://www.muenzen-moeller.de/ ), or Heidrun Hoehn ( http://www.numismatik-online.de/ssite/portal_en.htm ) to name just a few. I personally know that every one of these businesses deal in Karl Goetz medals. I will even let you make the choice from this list as to who we will send the medal to...you decide.

So what do you think? If you are correct then nothing comes out of your pocket...if you're wrong then you take the medal back. I do not want to leave this hanging for very long so I would appreciate an answer regarding this proposal within the next couple of days.

One other thing... I have included several images of Goetz medals I own that were cast within a year of the Ludendorff medal. I have placed the medal I got from you between my two medals to illustrate my claims that the Ludendorff is a replica. As you will immediately note, the Ludendorff does not exhibit any of the qualities of the two authentic Goetz pieces. Perhaps this demonstartion will assist you with your decision.

I will be awaiting your reply, Scott G.

If I get no response then I'm going to Safe Harbor (oh boy!) and I will release his name and all emails here on the board...they will speak for themselves.

1jester · November 13, 2003 11:40PM

Sorry you have to bring out the heavy guns but your proposal is more than fair.

CIVITAS · November 14, 2003 1:14AM

I hate sellers with strict return policies (or none at all). I hope this all works out in the end for you. As Jester said, your proposal is quite fair. If he opts out, I'd say he's knowingly trying to screw you.

cacheman · November 15, 2003 1:43AM

I used my wife's ebay id to ask the seller a question on another item he has up for bid...I got a pretty quick answer but he refuses to answer MY email with the proposal for authentication. He's looking shadier and shadier.....

SYRACUSIAN · November 15, 2003 1:53AM

Tough decision Scott; if you're not interested in any more items from this seller ,I'd say go for it.

But the truth is,that if he doesn't have a return policy, Square Trade will solve nothing. Furthermore, he can always claim that to his knowledge it was not a replica,although eBay does not accept this as an excuse. But they won't refund you either I'm afraid.

trozau · November 15, 2003 2:28AM

eBay hides behind their disclaimer: "caveat emptor"

cacheman · November 15, 2003 2:34AM

I don't expect ebay to do squat, however "VISA" will. I just spoke with a dealer from California who is well known in both the U.S. and Germany as a Goetz dealer. He will authenticate it for me after I send it down to him, a mere formality since he has already determined by the images that this isn't even close to a real Goetz piece. Once I have the written authentication then it's it'll be up to VISA to "Charge Back" his PP account.

trozau · November 15, 2003 2:43AM

If that happens, will you be required to return the forgery? or do you get to keep it to dispose of as you please?

cacheman · November 15, 2003 4:58AM

I have only done one other charge back..I was advised from VISA to send the coins back, which I did registered, the seller thought he was pulling something over on me by refusing the coins and returning them to me. What he didn't know was that his refusal essentially said "I don't want them" so I got the coins AND all of the money. Boy, I bet he was fuming after that...and then I turned around and made a sizable profit on their resale at the appropriate grade. This wouldn't have happened had the guy at least worked with me but he essentially laughed at me for six months and he thought he was "Teflon" man. My Credit Union who issued the VISA card said they had never seen such a well documented case. I am glad I did my homework because PayPal was the vendor in the case and I essentially fighting them.

In this case I would rather the guy just take the damn thing back....

santelia · November 15, 2003 5:41AM

Gat a "Not Authentic" stamp and punch it into the reverse so he can't sell it as the real thing again! :-)

cacheman · November 15, 2003 5:58AM

spoon · November 15, 2003 6:04AM

That's what I was going to say.. after it's declared fake drill a hole through it or something.

1jester · November 15, 2003 6:34AM

That sounds like a great idea!

cacheman · November 15, 2003 10:52AM

I got this response earlier this evening. Any constructive insights would be appreciated...a fair solution would be just to take the damn thing back.

Hello Scott,

You can be sure I am a person always keeping up justice very high. This does not imply I take back items in all cases when customers are not satisfied. As you know, Ebay is a selling system based on descriptions and pictures. I make them both in a very honest way and if the dissatisfaction cannot be attributed to any faults I made, I do not take any items back as a matter of principle.

As you may have noticed, the pictures in the description were good enough to remark all details of the medal. I am no Goetz expert (which I never claimed to be, quite the contrary) and am not familiar with his restrikes, so it should have been in your interest to watch the pictures carefully before bidding and/or to ask questions and for more pictures.

It is definitely not my job, but yesterdays I contacted the German experts you mentioned in your last email (Olding, Kuenker, Moeller and Hoehn) and even some more. I will get back to you as soon as I have any response mails. Simultaneously, I will be working on a fair solution.

Regards,
XXXXX

For your information: Electrotype medals are as appreciated as other casts, they are definitely not of minor quality and NOT restrikes!

0john0 · November 15, 2003 11:28AM

I think VISA is your best bet. I have resorted to that in the past (in non-Ebay related circumstances) and they have always been very helpful.
If you do not need to do business with this Goetz non-expert you might as well burn this bridge and get your money back. Forget about the negative feedback until the last minute (60 days? I don't know). Best of luck Scott. This is an eye opener.

-John

Aethelred · November 15, 2003 11:36AM

This guy is being a real jerk, I hope you get your money back! I figure if I sell something and the buyer is not happy I'll send his money back no matter what. I did a refund not long ago on a coin I sold over a year ago!

ajaan · November 15, 2003 11:37AM

What coin was that?

Aethelred · November 15, 2003 11:39AM

It was an Eight Real.

ajaan · November 15, 2003 11:42AM

I bought an 8 Reales from you. Are you going to send my money back?

Aethelred · November 15, 2003 11:44AM

<< <i>I bought an 8 Reales from you. Are you going to send my money back? >>

Sure, but you gotta send me the coin first!

ajaan · November 15, 2003 11:46AM

Damn, I knew there had to be a catch.

Aethelred · November 15, 2003 11:49AM

Sorry Don!

danglen · November 15, 2003 12:19PM

Scott,

One of the more constructive things you can do is let the rest of us know the identity of this jerkwad. Based on everything you have said and the copies of his emails, I think that canceling the credit card payment is the way to go. There is no way the credit card company is going to make you pay for an item that is advertised as a Goetz, then turns out to be a fake.

spoon · November 15, 2003 12:50PM

.. if the dissatisfaction cannot be attributed to any faults I made, I do not take any items back as a matter of principle.

I think you oughta punch him in the nose as a matter of principle.. but that's just me

Anyway, the more we hear of this guy he seems more an immature idiot, than malicious a--hole.. probably didn't know it was fake, but now that he does he doesn't want to lose his own investment in it. That and he panicked and is too stubborn to admit being wrong.

cosmicdebris · November 15, 2003 6:21PM

S this guy needs to be known to the rest of us. Ignorance is no excuse and his arrogance extrudes from his emails. He deserves everything you can get him with.

1jester · November 15, 2003 6:59PM

Judging from his emails, I'd say his native language is German, and therefore I'd conclude he's a seller in Germany, Austria, or possibly Switzerland. And I've lived in Germany nearly 6 years, and seen this kind of "can do no wrong" attitude by multitudes of German "businessmen". It's infuriating for the customer.

Do a charge-back on the VISA, burn your bridges, and go on to better things.

spoon · November 15, 2003 7:39PM

Okay.. scratch the above.. I know who it is, he knows what he's doing. In fact I think his website has been praised here before?

Dang.. good call on the profile Jester!

1jester · November 15, 2003 7:58PM

It's really sad that people resort to lying, cheating and stealing, when they could be honest and earn a good reputation.

cacheman · November 16, 2003 12:57AM

I received several emails during the night from this dude...

First:
Hello Scott, Although I still do not know, if the medal is fake of not, I would like to bring this to an end. Here my proposal: You bought the medal for $280, I will send you back $230 and you will keep the medal. This is far under my purchase price, but I have no need for this medal, should it be genuine or not. Please acknowledge this email and send me you answer as soon as possible as I will be out of town for the next few days. Thanks, XXXXXXX"[i/]

I was going to tell him it wasn't worth the $50, and that he could have the damn thing back....

Second:
Hello Scott,

I just got an email from a very good friend of mine who is very knowledgeable regarding Goetz medals. He was quite doubtful concerning the origin of the piece when he saw the pictures, telling me it could also be an aftercast by Karl Goetz' son Guido.

In order to put an end to this affair, please send the medal back to me by registered airmail and you will get a full Paypal refund of your payment. Here is my adress:

XXXXXXXX XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX #
XXXXXXXX XXXX XXXXX
Germany

Please accept my apologies, as I told you I am no expert for these medals.

Best regards,
XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXX

So this guy won't believe me but then he believes "a friend" who doesn't know aftercast from a Japanese electrotype. Guido, Goetz's son, was certainly not as accomplished as his father but he still wouldn't have produced something this BU and pawned it off.

I have not exposed the name of this seller in fear that word would get back to him before I saw my money. Upon receiving the money You will be informed of at least his ebay ID so that you may walk cautiously in the future. What I am really looking forward to doing is this...he had shown me the only two Goetz medals he has in his entire collection and after the money shows I will be a good samaritan and inform him that one of them is a sand cast, which it is. I can only hope he paid big bucks for it!!

In closing I would like to thank everyone for putting up with this post and my sniveling. My idiotic need to own this medal over-rode my common senses. I, too, knew something wasn't right when I bid (and I was the only one who bid). The positive side to this is my having learned several lessons and getting the chance to view a fake Goetz. The positive will not cloud my need to be more cautious in the future. Thanks S

1jester · November 16, 2003 1:02AM

Whatchuh wanna bet someone turned him on to this thread?

I'm glad you'll be getting your money back.

Aethelred · November 16, 2003 1:04AM

Happy endings are always nice!

ClausUrch · November 16, 2003 2:11AM

If Guido was responsible for this medal, it could very well be worth quite a bit more than his fathers'!

wybrit · November 16, 2003 7:47AM

Sounds like you're coming close to a satisfactory conclusion. Your seller blinked first.

Askari · November 16, 2003 11:08AM

I'm glad to hear he came around! Actually, I have heard that Guido panhandled electrotypes of his father's works, but I don't know if it's true or not.

Very astute theorizing Sherlock Jester!! You are right on!

JamminJ · November 16, 2003 11:19AM

I'm glad to hear you finally received your money back. Still a shame you had to put up with all that BS to get it, I'll be sure to steer clear once the seller is outed.

-JamminJ

MacCrimmon · November 16, 2003 11:32AM

<< <i>I just spoke with a dealer from California who is well known in both the U.S. and Germany as a Goetz dealer. He will authenticate it for me after I send it down to him, >>

S, I would at least have this dealer mentioned by you personally authenticate and present something in writing, in the event that the 'perp' tries something fishy after receiving the medal back. You would then have plenty of documentation to get the charge-back thru your CC issuer.

Mac

cacheman · November 16, 2003 12:40PM

hmmmm, good point!

cacheman · November 18, 2003 2:19AM

I went ahead and shipped the medal off Registered yesterday. I scanned the receipt and sent it via email to the seller. I wasn't expecting this but I just got notification from PayPal that he had sent me my money. I had asked for him to eat half the shipping costs too and he even paid that! So the whole deal cost me about $25....I'll consider that well spent money for the lessons.

END OF STORY

ccrdragon · November 18, 2003 2:46AM

Good to hear it worked out and wasn't too expensive!

A storm is brewing....CLOSING UPDATE!!!

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