1936-1942 Cameo Proofs. Where are they at??

keets

First the numbers from the current PCGS Population report, 1936-1942 CAM/DCAM:

no DCAM's!! all are CAM's.

Lincoln Cent: 37.
Buffalo Nickel: 4.
Jefferson Nickel: 5.
Winged Liberty Dime: 12.
Washington Quarter: 0.
Walking Liberty Half: 5.

It's interesting to note that the January 2002 PCGS Census lists no Cam's in any denomination for the 1936-1942 Proofs. With the small number of Proof Coins issued in those years, it's always seemed to me that there should be nice CAM/DCAM coins held by oldtime collectors. Perhaps there are and we're starting to see them come to light in the last two years. The number of coins is surprisingly small to me. Even more surprising is the fact that there are no Washington Quarters and the Lincoln Cents are so numerous compared to the other denominations, given the nature of copper. Heck, 20 of the Lincoln CAM's are from 1942 alone!!

So where are they all hiding?? Or did the mint personell not have the skill to prepare the dies when they started up the Proof Series again in 1936?? That seems unlikely to me since there are plenty of pre-1936 Cameo and Deep Cameo coins. Any thoughts? Any members have Cameo's from this era that they'd care to talk about or share pictures of?

Thanks.

Al H.

Steve

My understanding is that prior to last year PCGS did not recognize CAM proofs for the 1936-1942 period. That is why there are none shown on the pop report. There may be a number of PCGS slabbed coins out there that ARE cameo but are not shown on the label. Their owners will need to resubmit. Steve

segoja

Well Keets, this is a good thread for my 500th posts!

I don;t think these coins are hiding anywhere, I just think they are very rare. I'm not sure why there weren't any more produced. Obviously there was something in the mint process that prevented the creation of these. Maybe the way they polished the dies after a long period of layoffs from making proofs created these rarities.

On why there are some many cents, PCGS doesn't grade the reverse. If the obverse is camoe, the coin is. We've all seen many obverse only coins. On Lincolns they get the grade. All other designations they don't.

On the Washington's, the design is realtiely low relief compared to the surface area. Maybe that's why there are very few of these.

Here the the one I own. Bought it at a local shop. It was harshly toned, but you could see the cameo. Gave it a well deserved bath, and presto! Cameo. The grade on this piece is way below what I was expecting. I thought the coin had a legit shot at 67, not 64.

Here are the pics anyway!

Cameo is much better than the scan indicates, and the specks etc are in the scan.

Merc

I wrote about this topic in my educational exhibit at the 2003 FUN show and the Orlando show last weekend. The new mint employees in 1936 did not know how to make the cameo proofs found in the Barber series and before. The dies were not being sandblasted or acid etched to produce cameo coins. Almost all of the coins being produced were brilliant proofs except for the satin proofs of early 1936. Some of the coins were mild cameos but there is not enough frost to deserve a CAM grade. In my 1940's proof, the 1940 dime has a mild cameo (my icon coin pictured) The 1942 proof silver nickel (Type 2) has a nice cameo on Monticello, but the obverse is brilliant with no cameo.

Sorry, I don't think that 1940 proof is a cam on the obverse.

I don't think these coins are hiding. Very very few have a cameo contrast on both sides. None will have an ultra cam. If I'm wrong about this, prove me wrong with a nice picture of one.

Look out for fake cameos. PCGS has a nice fake one pictured in their grading book.

segoja

There is a slabbed PF66DCAM 42-P silver. I think a board member uses it as his icon.

It looks like a really nice piece. Are there others out there, I'm sure, but not many!

RGL

This is, last I knew, the only 36-42 DCAM to be certified by either PCGS or NGC. I'm sure BNE will not mind:

scher

I have a very nice set of merc's and walkers..really high grade proofs..i was hoping and sent em all in for cam designation and struck out..not a one.. i felt about half were borderline..its a tough designation to get..
bruce scher

Merc

I'm surprised to see one to get a DCAM. From the picture, I can't really tell if it is a DCAM or not. The frost seems to be lacking at the lower bust of Jefferson. The frost on this nickel is nowhere near the DCAM frost seen on the Barber proofs or on the modern proof Jefferson nickels.

DMWJR

Keets, it is one of the things I look for first. The minting process 36-42 did not lend itself to producing DCAMs, and CAMs are very, very rare. That's why you don't see the pop's filling up. That 42 DCAM was made in last December 02 if I'm not mistaken.

coolkarma

Keets,
You missed the 1942 Type 2 proof cameo and dcam nickels because of the "unique" way PCGS organizes their pop report. The Type 2's are at the very end of the report: 2 cams and 1 dcam. The 66 Cameo is mine

This is a good thread - it has touched on all the reasons there are so very few 1936-42 cameo proofs in PCGS holders - from poor die preparation to PCGS's only recent awarding of the designation (my memory is that they began in the spring/summer before they placed the bar code on the front of their blue holders).

There are a number of people (including me) who have some near cameos from that era that we "hope" PCGS will consider cameo. As Bruce's message indicates, most of these are only "near" cameo. Attached are images of a 1940 nickel that is one of my "hopes". I'm just learning how to take reasonable pictures so the coin is much, much better than the image (particularly for the reverse), but you can see the obverse frost reasonably well. The reverse is too out of focus. Both sides have nice mirrors and essentially no haze.

Just this week I submitted it to PCGS. I think the 1940 has at least as nice a cameo as my 1942 Type 2 PCGS PR66 Cameo nickel. It was submitted as a "freebie" so I expect to hear what PCGS thinks in three weeks or so. I'll post the results. Think cameo thoughts for me!

CoolKarma

BillJones

My take on this to totally different.

While people at the mint thought that Matte Proof coins were really cool, a lot of collectors did not agree with them. When the first Proofs came off the presses in 1936, they had a Matte-like finish. The production of these coins was largely limited to nickels (most common) and cents with the silver pieces rare to non-existant.

When collectors saw these rather dull coins, they complained. That promped the mint Proof makers to take die polishing to the extreme. They polished the dies to the point where sharpness was often lost to a situation where some business strike coins had more detail than the Proofs. No amount of dullness or frosted finish was tolerated. As a result cameo Proof coins from the 1936-42 era range in rarity from almost unobtainable to impossible.

It's not PCGS' and NGC's fault that there are almost no coins with the cameo notation. The truth is the coins just don't exist.

In 1950 a similar situation cropped up with dull Proofs. That led to another round of extreme die polishing. The worst examples of this are the 1952 sets. Some of those coins are so bright that you can barely look at them, but they also lack a of detail too. I have a '52 Proof Franklin that has old Ben's locks hanging in mid-air at the back of his head.

CarlWohlforth

I like to buy those proof with some cameo contrast if I find them. I have a dime I think has a strong cameo obverse but it is too toned and the reverse might not be frosty enough to get the designation even if this coin were dipped. I also have 2 nickels and another dime that have light cameo contrast.



BTW I would never dip that coin, the toning might be too dark for some but it is icy clear and just talks to me.

BillJones

I agree, Carl, I won't touch that coin either.

The white ones with those little marks that are a sure sign of dipping are a dime a dozen. Original toned silver Proofs from the 1936 to '42 era are very scarce and probably underrated.

Shamika

"They polished the dies to the point where sharpness was often lost to a situation where some business strike coins had more detail than the Proofs."

SOME business strikes? Bill is being nice. In truth, MOST business strikes have better sharpness than these proofs.

remumc

A most interesting and excellent thread!

Regards,

Wayne

keets

hey BillJones

funny that you should mention the 1952 sets. i recently took a chance on an eBay listing for a CAM Jefferson in an ICG holder, it's in the mail now. the seller only provided an obverse picture which showed a very nice contrast. i can only hope the reverse is the same. i also recently purchased a 1940 SEGS holdered CAM Jefferson that i'm going to send to NCS---NGC. the coin has very solid obverse/reverse frost with haze above the dome and some carbon spotting on the obverse whic i've never really seen on proof nickels before. i'm hoping they can remove/lessen them and brighten the reverse. other than that, it's a very well struck and mark free coin.

i have seen quite a few one-sided CAM's of all denominations in these early sets, though brilliant coins seem to be the rule. possibly that's the best to hope for.

al h.

SanctionII

TTT.

Interesting thread by Keets from 6.5 years ago.

How about Keets favoring us with an update to this thread listing the current pops for CAM and DCAM 1936-42 proofs?

I bet the pops have not changed very much at all.

Maybe Skyman will see this thread and repost a picture of his 1938 Cameo Walker. Now that is what I call a CAMEO.

PawPaul

yes Keet's , dig up the new pop's for us !

I think the pops have gone up significantly

PawPaul

oops ..........the dime pop seems to have gone down ! and still no quarters in cam ! yikes !!!!

PawPaul

talking PCGS -

there are now 82 pennies and 7 half dollars

cmerlo1

I had a 1938 Lincoln Cent that made PR-65 RD Cameo at NGC about 5 years ago... at the time it was the second example in CAM. I don't think it would've made cameo at PCGS...

commoncents05

This is a sector I track very closely. I have been checking the populations annually from PCGS since 2008, and I will attach the spreadsheets I have kept. The top one shows the pops in 2008, and the next one in 2009. The green shaded numbers are ones that had changed from the previous year (same goes for the yellow shaded numbers for 2010).

These are extremely tough coins, ones that I find very interesting. I have owned four 1942 Cameo Lincolns (all PR64CAM), two 1937 Lincolns (both PR64CAM), a 1938 Lincoln (in PR65CAM), and a 1940 Jefferson in PR65CAM. A very underrated sector given the incredible rarity of some of the pieces.



In 2009, we see a jump in the pops for 1938 and 1942 Lincolns, and 1937 Nickels. We also see the only 1940 Dime is no longer listed in the pops.


Not much change, a few more 1942 Lincolns in PR64 and PR65 in just over a year.


-Paul

SkyMan

Paul, thank you for the Pop info.

This one is in an NGC PR66CAM holder. Tomaska has advised that I send it back in as he believes it could either DCAM or 67. The good Lord willing I don't plan on selling this anytime soon so I don't really see the point in resubmitting it right now. IMO it will NOT DCAM, but I think it's got a reasonable shot at CAM*. As to 67, mehhh, maybe, maybe not... proofs are REALLY hard to grade at that level, particularly if you don't collect the given series. I'm providing 2 shots each of the obverse and reverse to show that all the devices are frosted. As for the mirrors, you can literally see your face at arms length.

Justacommeman

Sy, that is a beast and I LOVE it.......I lost out out a slab designated cameo two or three years ago and I've been kicking myself ever s[nce. I actually think RT won it in a Heritage auction. I could be mistaken.................Thank you for sharing......MJ

CarlWohlforth

I'd like to photograph your Walker Sky Man! Not that I would do any better than the photos you have, but only because it would be a great excuse for me to get another look at that fantastic coin and to see you again! Thanks for showing it to me and letting me hold it in my very own hands! Truly the finest Walker I've ever seen with the most cameo contrast of any Walker I've seen.

That nickel of BNE's posted by RGL is awesome! I saw that one in person too. BNE, if I remember correctly, purchased it in a frowned upon label and got himself a favorable cross.

I see no need to bother with the labels at this moment in time. I doubt it would 67 or DCAM. However it might eventually get a bump some way, some how.

I believe SanctionII was there the day I met him and Sy and we had a show and tell. SanctionII is another fellow who knows first hand how hard it is to find coins from that earliest modern era of cameo proof coins. Much easier to find cameos from the 1890s than from the '36-'42 period! Kevin looks at raw proofs to assemble his collection. He as the best cameo contrast per buck ratio for those years of anybody I've met.

My quest is to find nickels from that era with cameo contrast. I don't need a designation on a label and understand finding a DCAM in a raw proof set is like picking the winning lotto numbers. So I settle for some cameo contrast on already certified coins, I pay a small premium for the contrast that others don't because they want all (the designation) or nothing.

I have a nice '38 and '42-P T2. We're talking Jeffersons here. I also have a nice '40. My other dates were selected for having more cameo than others I've owned but are nothing much to talk about.

Here is a photo of my '38 obverse (PCGS PR 67) and '42-P reverse (NGC PR 66). Still looking for a '39 then I can look for upgrades.

ambro51

Ahhhh Coin No More.... Heap Big Chief Ridum off into sunset....but he was a nice coin while I had him. traded for an 1875 Gold Dollar.

PCGS PR66CAM one thing that always troubled me about this coin was it looked too good. like a Frankin mint copy. It had a faint vertical scratchup anbd down across the buffalos back and I was never sure if it was in the die or on the coin. Troubled me, probably a scratch whick kept this from a 67

SanctionII

Thanks for the updated population information Paul.

How very interesting it is to see that there are no 1936-42 Cameo quarters listed on the population reports posted by Paul.

I have never seen a quarter from the era that would ever come close to being considered a cameo. I saw a raw 1942 proof set at one of the Santa Clara shows [4-2009 I think] that was hazed over and looked like it had some frost on the obverse devices. It was still in the same dealer's case at the follow up Santa Clara show six months later. I got to look at the coin, both sides, under a 10x loupe. No dice. No frosted devices at all. Strictly brilliant with the haze on the coin misleading me to think frost was present.

At the 4-2010 Santa Clara show a dealer had a Capital Holder containing 1936 - 1964 proof quarters. A very nice set. I looked at it, particularly the 1936-42 coins.

Low and behold, the 1942 quarter actually had very light frost on the obverse devices. The reverse was brilliant. The dealer asked me what I was looking for and I thought "What the heck". So I told him that I was looking for 1936-42 proof quarters that had frosted devices and thus a cameo look. I told him I had never seen any such coin in 10 years of looking and that his 1942 quarter was the first and only one I had seen that had even the slightest hint of frost on the devices. I told him that the quarters I had seen from this era were all strictly brilliant and rather bland. I told him that his was the best looking one I had ever seen. He listened carefully and said thanks for the information. I bet he switched out the coin out of the Capital Holder and set it aside in a single holder, while increasing his asking price

If it had not been in the Capital Holder and was instead a single, I would have bought it. No such luck and I doubt the dealer would have been receptive to me asking to have the single coin removed from the set and sold to me separately for bid.

Maybe the dealer will still have it in stock at the next show.

BTW, I still drool everytime I see pictures of Skyman's Cameo Walker. The last time I saw it in hand, I needed to put on a bib before I took it in hand, or my shirt would have been ruined.

CarlWohlforth

Nice buffalo! I've seen a cameo buff in hand too, at a Long Beach show many years ago. It was the same grade, perhaps it was the same coin? Small world so it could be...

SanctionII has the nicest set of raw proofs I've seen. He meticulously ferrets out cameo coins from raw sets and pays brilliant prices (or maybe a bit more) for them. Should he ever sell I'd pay a strong premium over what he paid. He keeps upgrading. He is a true hunter.

Cameonut

Here is a '38 cent in 5cam to go with SkyMan's magnificent proof Walker. I found it in an old Anacs holder for $100, cracked it, and sent it in.
PCGS designated cameos from the '36-'42 era are haaarrrddd to find.

SkyMan

That's a lovely Buffernick and Lincoln you got there guys!!!

commoncents05

Here are photos of most of the ones I have owned or still own.

SanctionII

Great pictures everyone.

Carl. Thanks for the kind words. It is fun hunting for cherries and buying them for modest money.

Bear

I Looooovvvvveeeeeee the W.L. Half.

SanctionII

R&I Coins currently has a 1938 Proof Walker [graded PF67 if I recall] that has some Cameo Frost but no Cameo designation for sale on its web site for around $11,000.00.

Skyman's 1938 would probably sell for more to a deep pocketed Cameo fanatic given its Cameo designation

BillJones

CAM and DCAM coins from the the 1930's and '40s are very rare because the main goal of the U.S. mint during this period was to get as much of a mirrored surface on the coins as possible. Prior to the advent of Chromium plating at the U.S. mint, Proof dies in the 1950s, ‘60s and part of the ‘70s, only the first 10 or 12 Proof coins struck had any cameo contrast. After that (unless the dies were repolished which created another set of issues) those Proof coins were brilliant all over because the friction between the dies and the planchet wore off the frosting. In the 1940s complaints about the “satin finish” coins prompted the mint to polish the dies like crazy. That really made the few cameo coins that are seen seem like “mint errors” of a sort.

Justacommeman

<< <i>R&I Coins currently has a 1938 Proof Walker [graded PF67 if I recall] that has some Cameo Frost but no Cameo designation for sale on its web site for around $11,000.00.

Skyman's 1938 would probably sell for more to a deep pocketed Cameo fanatic given its Cameo designation >>



And I believed he had a designated cameo walker for sale awhile ago for $13,500. I don't remember the year/grade. MJ