I've heard nothing from anyone to lead me to believe that Dan is a scammer. The arguments AGAINST him being a scammer are actually quite persuasive.
On the other hand, anyone who would NOT make a copy of their invoices, and NOT send their cards to PSA via registered, insured mail, certainly sounds capable of misplacing a card, forgetting to place a card into a box, or even of inadvertently disposing of a card along with their own excess packing materials.
Still ... say PSA lost a card out of the 6 million + that they've graded. Who wants to pay the additional expenses associated with PSA going "security crazy" over the loss of one card ?
Don't forget - while a $6000 card is significant, that's nothing in the realm of coins, and CLCT uses the same security techniques with cards that they use with coins.
I really think both parties believe they're right, and while I can understand the logic of why Mr. McKee didn't insure the package, it certainly does not help suspicions.
If you're Joe Orlando, and someone calls up and says they sent a card, and your top people claim it was never in the package, what do you do??
I have been quitely behind the scenes doing my best to get all PSA packages routed through Fla on their way to Ca.I was just starting to have some sucess and finally see the fruits of my labor come to fruition.Leave your theory alone.
Beefcake,
Please explain the logic as to why a $6,000 card was not insured.I cannot myself come up with any possible viable explanation.The senders explanation does not hold water IMHO.
Thanks, Vic
Please be kind to me. Even though I'm now a former postal employee, I'm still capable of snapping at any time.
If you have a small priority mail box weighing less than a pound with $15.00 or $20.00 postage on it any post office employee knows that there's something inside of high value. A package like this is enticing to a crooked postal employee. If you only have the base priority mail postage on the package the package isn't as promising to a crooked employee. McKee stated he had a problem in the past with showing value outside the box and that is why he didn't insure it. He was protecting himself from a crooked employee in the post office. He was essentially trying to sneak it through the postal system without the package getting noticed. Now if he were to send the package to you or me in a $5.00 priority mail box it will not get much attention from a crooked postal employee. But he was sending it to PSA PCGS and every package going to PSA PCGS would be enticing to a crooked postal employee who knows what PSA PCGS does. Regular or certified or insured or priority all make for easy pickings but NOT if it was sent via registered mail. That's a big no-no for a postal guy. PSA has years of experience with the system and that's why they suggest that you send to them by registered. Registered mail is taped and stamped to prevent rifling and it travels through the system in the most secure manner. A package sent by regular or certified or insured or priority doesn't have to look damaged for the contents to be rifled. Pop it open take what you feel you have coming and tape it back up nicely and send it along its way. Knowing the reputation of PSA and McKee the most likely scenario would be for a crooked postal employee to be the culprit. Why because a rare opportunity presented itself to a crooked postal employee by means of an unregistered package. McKee doesn't think it is possible for the postal system to be the culprit here but yet he sent it in a special way that he felt best protected him from the postal system. Something happens and he can't get money from the post office so he tries getting it from PSA. In his mind PSA has lots of money and firing off a $6000.00 check to keep him happy won't be a big deal. It wasn't that easy and now the desire to destroy all that is PSA. This all could have been avoided by not trying to sneak the package through the postal system and instead shipping by registered mail. We all wish he had.
I am writing this thread so that I will not have to constantly defend myself to people who were not around in the hobby at the time this tragic event occurred. The PSA loss of my Magie has brought this back up since the PSA cult is constantly trying to attack my reputation on a chat board.
At the 1991 National in Anaheim my father and Joe Bosley who is now deceased were set up together. Anyone who was in the pre-war hobby at the time knows Dad had 1 of the best pre-war offerings at the show and at several shows prior. The first day they opened dad had a great day! $16K in sales. The next morning they came in to open up the table and the entire showcases and contents were gone. Another couple local to CA that had Topps and Bowman stuff were also wiped out the same way overnight. I WAS NOT at the show nor hardly involved at the time with cards. I still had my collection but was chasing skirts which was more important to me in 1991.
Yes we (dad and Joe and the CA couple) sued several parties to try and recoup the loss. We were awarded $33K total which didn't even dent what dad or the CA couple lost! Dad lost retail $250,000. The CA couple I believe was well over $100,000. dad got $11K, the CA couple got $11K and the lawyers got $11K. So we did receive something though it was a joke compared to what we lost.
I do not know many more specifics but I can tell you that you can ask any major dealer there and they will vouch that we were miserably robbed! Ask Kevin Struss, Bill Mastro I don't care who but anyone there will know we were robbed.
I would also like to add that I have contacted the other family that was ripped off and they live in California. I am sure they will be interested to know that they were imagining that they lost a full 2nd mortgage. I will point them to this board and maybe they will post in.
I have read many posts here and it is nice to see that no matter which side most of you are on, you are decent people. This will be my only post here, I just wanted to address this issue since whoever posted about it is way off base. The awarded amount should be public knowlege as well. Anyone interested in slamming me or supporting me or just would like more info on this, please email me at r337man@yahoo.com
I have also disguised my user ID so that you will not know who I am. Pretty slick ah? Sincerely, Dan Mckee
Dan, I started this thread a few days back. I was not aware of this situation ocurring, until I read about in in my newspaper on Monday.
My intention with sharing this with other board members was not to attack your reputation or credibility.
To be quite honest, I was and still remain neutral on the subject. I think it is unfortunate for you as a collector, PSA as a legitimate business, the USPS and the hobby as a whole.
I utilize the information and discussion on these boards as my primary source for information on the graded card/set hobby. My only intention was to provide information to the corners of the country that may not have been aware. I appreciate when other fellow memebrs do this, and was just looking to contribute.
I would like to state that I edited my last post after reading Dan Mckees post.I mentioned a statement that was previously posted and obviously unfounded and for that I apologize.While ,as a postal employee,I still do not understand the non insurance issue,I can certainly see where this scenario could possibly happen.After discussing this situation with numerous people who know Dan personally,I am becoming convinced that Dan is on the level.I still do not see that this unfortunate situation has any viable solution where both parties will be satisfied.I reaffirm my previous statement that PSA has had a loophole in their security exposed and MUST take precautions to prevent this from occuring again.
Vic
Please be kind to me. Even though I'm now a former postal employee, I'm still capable of snapping at any time.
It looks like I am going to make a trip out to the land of "cereal"(don't you live in CA?)and personally set you straight.How can I run a scam if you are constantly putting me in the spotlight?? Be sure that you take a good look at anyone that is over 6'3" and 270 or better.I'm Coming
Vic
By the way,Have a cold one waiting on me when I get there.
Please be kind to me. Even though I'm now a former postal employee, I'm still capable of snapping at any time.
Putting aside the risk of theft, sending a $6000 card through the mail uninsured is asking for trouble from the risk of damage. Is there anyone here who has never received a card or memorabilia that was damaged during shipment via the US Postal Service? Packages get crushed, damaged, misdelivered, or lost too frequently to rely on slipping a package past thieving employees by not insuring it. Private carriers aren't necessarily any better. If your $6000 card might get mangled by the post office, you had better insure it or send it registered. Anything else is extremely foolish.
I really like Cardbroad's analysis and here's a thought that puts in all in perspective. The card owner had a bad prior experience with the Post Office because of some crook. As a result, he decides that he wants to outsmart the crooks and "fly under the radar screen" by not making the package look conspicuous. Now the card doesn't show up at PSA. Suddenly, there are no crooks in the postal service and it has to be PSA's fault. Do you people see the contradiction here?
First off,I must put in a disclaimer for those that might get offended.
PLEASE DO TAKE OFFENSE TO THE NEXT TWO STATEMENTS AS THEY ARE POSTED ONLY IN JEST AND IN NO WAY ARE MEANT TO OFFEND ANYONE.TAKE THEM IN THE HUMOROUS LIGHT THAT THEY ARE INTENDED TO BEE SEEN IN.
(I wonder if that will appease everyone?)(probably not,OH WELL)
Down here in the redneck south we have a saying about people from California.
California is called the land of cereal because people who live there are either fruits,nuts or flakes.
Just to be fair, we have a saying about northerners too.
What is the difference between a yankee and damn yankee?
Damn yankees stay!!
Once again,(see disclaimer) If I offended anyone Sorry!!!
Have a nice day
Vic
Please be kind to me. Even though I'm now a former postal employee, I'm still capable of snapping at any time.
<< <i>...What is the difference between a yankee and damn yankee?
Damn yankees stay!! ... >>
Being a fellow Floridian (although I am a little too far south to be as "red"), I can sympathize. I always liked the (local) bumper sticker that says, "Some of Us Aren't on Vacation".
I hope to see you soon, Vic. Now that the weather is starting to get a little more comfortable, I was thinking about riding the bike up to your "red" neck of the woods. I need to get a new battery and tires this weekend. I'll let you know when I plan to visit. Thanks again for the offer.
I knew about the fruit and nuts reference, but the flakes thing ties it into the "cereal" reference. I may be a Yankee, but I still believe that the Union had no Constitutional authority to declare war on the southern states.
<< <i>apparently a court ruling ultimately favored the collector in question.
edited to remove unverified statements. >>
Do you have a link? You can PM it if you like. As for insured or not insured, the package was delivered. I do not believe insurance would have covered this unless there was evidence of tampering.
cant believe this is back but will comment. everyone loses
PSA : hopefully they have installed camera's in the shipping area by now
as for the collector, what's to say he didn't just forget like many of us have. not insuring it. are you an idiot. a postal empley will be fired if there is tampering with a registered package and you will receive your money from a claim if there is which there won't because why would someone want to get fired to open a box which they don't know what is inside.
just a bad situation, I feel for the collector but he is an idiot. I feel for psa becasue they will have to pay but they didn't have the procedures in p[lace to defend themselves in a he said - she said scenario. If there were camera's , they probably would have won the legal hearing.
I also heard an unverified statement that PSA compensated this collector by sending him $6,000 CASH in an uninsured, unregistered, delivery-confirmed box which for some strange reason ended up being completely empty when the collector received the package in the mail.
I guess the only evidence the jury had was his submission sheet and the fact that PSA received it. So it could not have been the Postal Service - which takes a bad rap most of the time. Personally, I think UPS is the worst.
How anyone can send a card like that uininsured and non-registered is beyond me.
There was a topic started recently about mistakes people made when sending cards out to PSA. Link to thread If it's possible that PSA could lose the card when unpacking it, then it's just as possible that the guy could lose the card when packing it.
<< <i>I guess the only evidence the jury had was his submission sheet and the fact that PSA received it. So it could not have been the Postal Service - which takes a bad rap most of the time. Personally, I think UPS is the worst.
How anyone can send a card like that uininsured and non-registered is beyond me. >>
BUT how would the card being insured/registered have helped anyone? It was delivered. "Undamaged" and no evidence of tampering (or Im sure PSA would have contacted the customer post haste). So insurance would have done nil.
Im not taking a side to either. He could have forgot or PSA could of had it slip through the cracks. We will NEVER know.
Why didnt PSA contact the customer when they checked the inventory in? It was on the sheet yet no card? I would "assume" that if I left off a card that was listed on the submit form someone would call or at the least email.
***EDIT (see I admit when Im wrong) Incorrect statement. The Magie was sent under another sub form. I stand corrected***
***EDIT AGAIN yet he (supposedly) labeled the box 2 submissions.***
Im not taking a side to either. He could have forgot or PSA could of had it slip through the cracks. We will NEVER know
If that was the case, wouldn't PSA have contacted him stating that the order arrived without the card?
I once hit a golf ball that landed on the green (150 yard par 3) and when I got there it was gone. My friends saw it land, I saw it land, it was not in the hole, and it was a large, flat green. Maybe a bird took it. Or a raccoon? Who knows.
<< <i>Im not taking a side to either. He could have forgot or PSA could of had it slip through the cracks. We will NEVER know
If that was the case, wouldn't PSA have contacted him stating that the order arrived without the card?
I once hit a golf ball that landed on the green (150 yard par 3) and when I got there it was gone. My friends saw it land, I saw it land, it was not in the hole, and it was a large, flat green. Maybe a bird took it. Or a raccoon? Who knows. >>
You would think. BUT when you read some stories and post about how busy they get "stuff" happens. Its hard when they receive something yet do not "check it in" till days later. Or do they unpack once it is received and it "sits" opened?
**FAKE SCENERIO** Box comes in labeled 2 Submissions. Billy gets the box pulls stuff out and gets interuppted by Tommy because of story Tommy is telling about last nights party. Billy forgets there was a label saying 2 submissions. Logs in the one. **FAKE SCENERIO 2** (the names have been changed to protect the inocent) Mr. Smith scans his cards fills out two submissions BUT mistakenly packs only one submission but both forms. By the time Mr. Smith realizes it was HIS mistake he has vested to much time into PSA mad the mistake and doesnt want to eat crow.
I can go on. It is the customers "job" to send it. If it does not get there or it gets there and is not what is sent it is the "Companies" resposibility to * clear it up.
I truly believe that PSA does not have the "staff" to kee up with demand. Or they got hit hard and fast with overwhelming success and have dropped the ball on occasion. It happens.
Comments
I've heard nothing from anyone to lead me to believe that Dan is a scammer.
The arguments AGAINST him being a scammer are actually quite persuasive.
On the other hand, anyone who would NOT make a copy of their invoices,
and NOT send their cards to PSA via registered, insured mail,
certainly sounds capable of misplacing a card, forgetting to place a card into a box,
or even of inadvertently disposing of a card along with their own excess packing materials.
Still ... say PSA lost a card out of the 6 million + that they've graded.
Who wants to pay the additional expenses associated with PSA going "security crazy" over the loss of one card ?
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
I really think both parties believe they're right, and while I can understand the logic of why Mr. McKee didn't insure the package, it certainly does not help suspicions.
If you're Joe Orlando, and someone calls up and says they sent a card, and your top people claim it was never in the package, what do you do??
David,
I have been quitely behind the scenes doing my best to get all PSA packages routed through Fla on their way to Ca.I was just starting to have some sucess and finally see the fruits of my labor come to fruition.Leave your theory alone.
Beefcake,
Please explain the logic as to why a $6,000 card was not insured.I cannot myself come up with any possible viable explanation.The senders explanation does not hold water IMHO.
Thanks,
Vic
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1991 Anaheim National Theft Mckee and Bosley
October 7 2003 at 11:16 AM Dan Mckee
from IP address 199.173.224.2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am writing this thread so that I will not have to constantly defend myself to people who were not around in the hobby at the time this tragic event occurred. The PSA loss of my Magie has brought this back up since the PSA cult is constantly trying to attack my reputation on a chat board.
At the 1991 National in Anaheim my father and Joe Bosley who is now deceased were set up together. Anyone who was in the pre-war hobby at the time knows Dad had 1 of the best pre-war offerings at the show and at several shows prior. The first day they opened dad had a great day! $16K in sales. The next morning they came in to open up the table and the entire showcases and contents were gone. Another couple local to CA that had Topps and Bowman stuff were also wiped out the same way overnight. I WAS NOT at the show nor hardly involved at the time with cards. I still had my collection but was chasing skirts which was more important to me in 1991.
Yes we (dad and Joe and the CA couple) sued several parties to try and recoup the loss. We were awarded $33K total which didn't even dent what dad or the CA couple lost! Dad lost retail $250,000. The CA couple I believe was well over $100,000. dad got $11K, the CA couple got $11K and the lawyers got $11K. So we did receive something though it was a joke compared to what we lost.
I do not know many more specifics but I can tell you that you can ask any major dealer there and they will vouch that we were miserably robbed! Ask Kevin Struss, Bill Mastro I don't care who but anyone there will know we were robbed.
I would also like to add that I have contacted the other family that was ripped off and they live in California. I am sure they will be interested to know that they were imagining that they lost a full 2nd mortgage. I will point them to this board and maybe they will post in.
I have read many posts here and it is nice to see that no matter which side most of you are on, you are decent people. This will be my only post here, I just wanted to address this issue since whoever posted about it is way off base. The awarded amount should be public knowlege as well. Anyone interested in slamming me or supporting me or just would like more info on this, please email me at r337man@yahoo.com
I have also disguised my user ID so that you will not know who I am. Pretty slick ah?
Sincerely,
Dan Mckee
I started this thread a few days back. I was not aware of this situation ocurring, until I read about in in my newspaper on Monday.
My intention with sharing this with other board members was not to attack your reputation or credibility.
To be quite honest, I was and still remain neutral on the subject. I think it is unfortunate for you as a collector, PSA as a legitimate business, the USPS and the hobby as a whole.
I utilize the information and discussion on these boards as my primary source for information on the graded card/set hobby. My only intention was to provide information to the corners of the country that may not have been aware. I appreciate when other fellow memebrs do this, and was just looking to contribute.
Best of luck.
Chuck
I would like to state that I edited my last post after reading Dan Mckees post.I mentioned a statement that was previously posted and obviously unfounded and for that I apologize.While ,as a postal employee,I still do not understand the non insurance issue,I can certainly see where this scenario could possibly happen.After discussing this situation with numerous people who know Dan personally,I am becoming convinced that Dan is on the level.I still do not see that this unfortunate situation has any viable solution where both parties will be satisfied.I reaffirm my previous statement that PSA has had a loophole in their security exposed and MUST take precautions to prevent this from occuring again.
Vic
David,
It looks like I am going to make a trip out to the land of "cereal"(don't you live in CA?)and personally set you straight.How can I run a scam if you are constantly putting me in the spotlight??
Be sure that you take a good look at anyone that is over 6'3" and 270 or better.I'm Coming
Vic
By the way,Have a cold one waiting on me when I get there.
If your $6000 card might get mangled by the post office, you had better insure it or send it registered. Anything else is extremely foolish.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
David,
What should I call you?
Vic
David,
First off,I must put in a disclaimer for those that might get offended.
PLEASE DO TAKE OFFENSE TO THE NEXT TWO STATEMENTS AS THEY ARE POSTED ONLY IN JEST AND IN NO WAY ARE MEANT TO OFFEND ANYONE.TAKE THEM IN THE HUMOROUS LIGHT THAT THEY ARE INTENDED TO BEE SEEN IN.
(I wonder if that will appease everyone?)(probably not,OH WELL)
Down here in the redneck south we have a saying about people from California.
California is called the land of cereal because people who live there are either fruits,nuts or flakes.
Just to be fair, we have a saying about northerners too.
What is the difference between a yankee and damn yankee?
Damn yankees stay!!
Once again,(see disclaimer) If I offended anyone Sorry!!!
Have a nice day
Vic
<< <i>...What is the difference between a yankee and damn yankee?
Damn yankees stay!!
Being a fellow Floridian (although I am a little too far south to be as "red"), I can sympathize. I always liked the (local) bumper sticker that says, "Some of Us Aren't on Vacation".
I hope to see you soon, Vic. Now that the weather is starting to get a little more comfortable, I was thinking about riding the bike up to your "red" neck of the woods. I need to get a new battery and tires this weekend. I'll let you know when I plan to visit. Thanks again for the offer.
JEB.
Yep,
Were still p*ssed off about that one.
Vic
edited to remove unverified statements.
edited because I can't for the life of me make any sense out of what I posted.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>apparently a court ruling ultimately favored the collector in question.
edited to remove unverified statements. >>
Do you have a link? You can PM it if you like. As for insured or not insured, the package was delivered. I do not believe insurance would have covered this unless there was evidence of tampering.
PSA : hopefully they have installed camera's in the shipping area by now
as for the collector, what's to say he didn't just forget like many of us have. not insuring it. are you an idiot. a postal empley will be fired if there is tampering with a registered package and you will receive your money from a claim if there is which there won't because why would someone want to get fired to open a box which they don't know what is inside.
just a bad situation, I feel for the collector but he is an idiot. I feel for psa becasue they will have to pay but they didn't have the procedures in p[lace to defend themselves in a he said - she said scenario. If there were camera's , they probably would have won the legal hearing.
How anyone can send a card like that uininsured and non-registered is beyond me.
If it's possible that PSA could lose the card when unpacking it, then it's just as possible that the guy could lose the card when packing it.
<< <i>I guess the only evidence the jury had was his submission sheet and the fact that PSA received it. So it could not have been the Postal Service - which takes a bad rap most of the time. Personally, I think UPS is the worst.
How anyone can send a card like that uininsured and non-registered is beyond me. >>
BUT how would the card being insured/registered have helped anyone? It was delivered. "Undamaged" and no evidence of tampering (or Im sure PSA would have contacted the customer post haste). So insurance would have done nil.
Im not taking a side to either. He could have forgot or PSA could of had it slip through the cracks. We will NEVER know.
Why didnt PSA contact the customer when they checked the inventory in? It was on the sheet yet no card? I would "assume" that if I left off a card that was listed on the submit form someone would call or at the least email.
***EDIT (see I admit when Im wrong) Incorrect statement. The Magie was sent under another sub form. I stand corrected***
***EDIT AGAIN yet he (supposedly) labeled the box 2 submissions.***
If that was the case, wouldn't PSA have contacted him stating that the order arrived without the card?
I once hit a golf ball that landed on the green (150 yard par 3) and when I got there it was gone. My friends saw it land, I saw it land, it was not in the hole, and it was a large, flat green. Maybe a bird took it. Or a raccoon? Who knows.
<< <i>Im not taking a side to either. He could have forgot or PSA could of had it slip through the cracks. We will NEVER know
If that was the case, wouldn't PSA have contacted him stating that the order arrived without the card?
I once hit a golf ball that landed on the green (150 yard par 3) and when I got there it was gone. My friends saw it land, I saw it land, it was not in the hole, and it was a large, flat green. Maybe a bird took it. Or a raccoon? Who knows. >>
You would think. BUT when you read some stories and post about how busy they get "stuff" happens. Its hard when they receive something yet do not "check it in" till days later. Or do they unpack once it is received and it "sits" opened?
**FAKE SCENERIO**
Box comes in labeled 2 Submissions. Billy gets the box pulls stuff out and gets interuppted by Tommy because of story Tommy is telling about last nights party. Billy forgets there was a label saying 2 submissions. Logs in the one.
**FAKE SCENERIO 2**
(the names have been changed to protect the inocent) Mr. Smith scans his cards fills out two submissions BUT mistakenly packs only one submission but both forms. By the time Mr. Smith realizes it was HIS mistake he has vested to much time into PSA mad the mistake and doesnt want to eat crow.
I can go on. It is the customers "job" to send it. If it does not get there or it gets there and is not what is sent it is the "Companies" resposibility to * clear it up.
I truly believe that PSA does not have the "staff" to kee up with demand. Or they got hit hard and fast with overwhelming success and have dropped the ball on occasion. It happens.
But again we will never know.
* EDIT should say point it out to their customer.