This Is Scary Stuff!

ChasMan

This article appeared today (October 6) in the "collectibles" section of the San Francisco Chronilce. I do not know if this has been discussed here before, but wanted to make sure everyone was informed. I am not trying to point out negatives of PSA, just thoguht it would eb good discussion.

Chuck

Here is the article link:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2003/10/06/SPG3225GIV1.DTL

:confusedText

yawie99

linkified

Edit to add: It's an article about the T206 Sherry Magee/Magie card that someone says PSA lost after they received his submission. More he said-she said stuff.

goodriddance189

its been talked about on both the CU forums, and the Net 54 boards some months ago. if i had a clue how to do an archive search i could find it. the title of the CU thread was "thread from the Net 54 boards"
(dont ask how i remember these things)

Basilone

<< <i>The reason I ship expensive cards with only tracking and signature confirmation," he said, "is because I had a very expensive package ripped open by an employee of the carrier and the contents removed. The employee was tempted by the large amount listed on the postal label." >>



I hear the same thing from the self-insurance gang. I do not see how there is more of a liability exposure using USPS insurance rather than just using sig confirmation so that people do not think anything valuable is in the package.

John

Vargha

It sounds like a bunch of crap. Certified mail is sent under lockbox, with a signature of the postal employee every time it changes hands. The package is stamped on every seam so that any tampering becomes immediately evident. How much more secure do you want than that?


(Edited for clarity)

theBobs

Old thread.

gemint

It's an unfortunate situation for both parties. Mr McKee is out of an expensive card and PSA received bad publicity over the incident. I agree with Vargha. There's absolutely no reason for not sending an expensive card via registered mail and insured. If someone tampers with the package, there's a postal employee name behind it who will have to answer for the tempering. They stamp those boxes about a thousand times to cover every possible seam.

mrc32

I'm not really sure I believe him, but kudos for him to finding a reporter to actually run the story.

bongobell

Sounds like a cue for "most expensive card lost in the post and what was the outcome" discussion.
I'm not sure I believe him either but did hear/read somewhere that PSA was supposed to have CCTV in operation in the receiving room and elsewhere?

z2345

The article did state that the $6000 was not registered and was not insured.

What the article fail to mention is that PSA explicitly instructs customers not to place separate orders in a single large container for shipment. McKee violated these instructions.

The article also fails to mention that McKee cannot to this date produce a copy of the invoice or submittal form.

As with all controversial articles, there are two sides to every story.

bongobell

It can work the other way though, I sent a T205 common in to be graded and received a VG T206 Magie in return!
Wondered how that had happened!

Mantlefan

Agree with z2345. PSA has specific guidelines about submission, to prevent this exact kind of situation from occurring. I can see where a loose card might be tossed away with packing material. This guy did not follow the guidelines and he has only himself to blame.

curmudgeon

Excuse me, but this comes right from the PSA FAQ page:

Q: Can I send multiple invoices in the same box to PSA?
A: Yes, you can send more than one invoice in a box and you can even write one check for all of the invoices. We ask that you look at the back of the invoice and note the shipping and insurance costs for each order. Each order must have its own shipping and insurance coverage for its return.

So how does this tell a customer "PSA explicitly instructs customers not to place separate orders in a single large container for shipment"?
Seems to me just the opposite can be argued.

Todd

bongobell

This is ridiculous, surely PSA will have a comprehensive system in place for opening packages, rechecking the packaging and logging the cards? Otherwise, any unscrupulous person could send in several orders in one "large" package with loads of packing and slip an "extra" invoice in there somewhere. Heck, they could even overinsure the package for the "extra" card/s and then claim PSA has misplaced them. Any eventual comeback could then be answered by a redfaced "oh sorry, my mistake, I've found the cards here at home and must have inadvertently forgot to put them in the package".

MyBigToe

I have heard many complaints about PSA but never until now have I heard one in which a card was lost, stolen or discarded. That is not to say that it did not happen but the evidence seems to be in PSA's favor on this one. Can you imagine if PSA were to write a check to this guy? What a mess that would create for Future Scammers of America.

Than again, WTF do I know?

Toe

Tipem

As a postal employee of 27 years,I can set everyone straight about a couple of things.

This person stated that he had a very expensive package ripped open by an employee that was tempted by the large amount listed on the postal label.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The post office does NOT have any postal labels on any service that lists the contents or the amount unless it is going overseas and then it is a customs label that is required by federal regulations.There is no mention of this package coming from or going to an overseas address.I cannot imagine any carrier stating the value of the contents on any outside label.


Certified mail is sent through the regular mail service and not insured under the certified mail service.It can be insured at additional costs.The service that Vargha is referring to (under lockbox,actually locked in a pouch)is registered.If this person did send it registered,there would be a record.While I do not know the sender,anyone and I mean anyone sending a $6,000 card and not insuring it through any service is an IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!


Vic

Virtualizard

Vic,

I agree with you, but just to play "devil's advocate" , let's assume I am shipping a $6,000 card and for some foolish reason (maybe I just like to waste money), I decide to use Priority mail and insure the shipment for $6,000. The postage label will indicate to any Postal Employee (and a lot of others as well) that the package contains valuable contents, based on the shipping cost printed on the sticker.

I ship anything worth over $1,000 Registered/Insured. It's actually cheaper AND more secure than any other method of shipping.

JEB.

curmudgeon

So Vic,

Say he sent it insured. How is this problem eliminated? The package arrived, in undamaged condition. What claim does he have when he says one of the cards is missing?

Think about it. Say this guy wants to scam PSA. If so, the best backup is to buy insurance and keep a copy of the invoice declaring the Magie. Send it and then gripe that they must have not seen the second invoice and thrown the card away. You've shown how prudent you were, sending it registered, with insurance and your invoice copy, and PSA must have screwed up, right? Very little cost to show all the "right" things.

Now if the idea was to scam PSA, this guy went about it completely wrong--no registered, no insurance and no invoice (although he does know the invoice number, which apparently has never surfaced as belonging to someone else's cards). Yet the bottom line is none of these "safety precautions' had any effect on what happened, or what he claimed happened.

Why would he make these claims when he was led to believe, as were others on his board, that the PSA receiving team is monitored by video, that there are checks and double checks to prevent this kind of thing, etc. He'd be immediately exposed as a total fraud, as the video emerged showing his package opened and no Magie card inside, plus whatever else PSa has in the way of security and checks. They could come down on him hard, and rightfully so. Nonetheless, he goes forward, and wouldn't you know it, there is no tape, no double secret ultra security in place. It's now a pi$$ing match because PSA hasn't got adequate security to prevent this and show that it didn't happen. Who should bear the risk, especially when the public is or was led to believe that a submitter's cards are treated with the utmost security and care?

In short, methinks most here are missing the bigger question by calling the complaining party a moron when, if anything, his supposed prudent steps would have made no difference.

Todd

itsawonderfullife

"The reason I ship expensive cards with only tracking and signature confirmation," he said, "is because I had a very expensive package ripped open by an employee of the carrier and the contents removed. The employee was tempted by the large amount listed on the postal label."

I'm in complete amazement of this guy's bad judgment. This above quote from the article makes no sense to me at all. If someone sends you a $6,000 card registered and its fully insured and you receive the package with it ripped open, then you have a airtight case against the USPS and you are fully covered. I'm very skeptical that his prior incident involved a registered package since it is transferred from carrier to carrier and inspected and signed each time. If someone did open up a registered box, then they would know exactly who did it and that employee would be fired and the person carrying the insurance claim would be fully compensated. This guy's a dunce.

The other major mistake this person committed was using the USPS issued Priority Mail package. I know in past years I've had a few of those tampered with and articles were missing from them as a result. The video size boxes are super easy to open up on the sides. The only thing that holds the sides in are these small ears. The ears can be pulled out and the sides can be easily opened and the ears can be reinstalled to show no evidence of tampering. Try it yourself and see what I mean. Considering that this person taped the Maggie card to a big piece of cardboard, makes it very unlikely that the person at PSA missed it while opening the box.

My other thought on this is that what would happen if this package never made it to PSA and got lost along the way? Would this guy be blaming the USPS and be moaning and groaning about how they ripped him off? He would be taking a $6,000 gamble with them and would have zero recourse if it got lost in the mail. But if it reaches PSA, then this guy is a victim and PSA is wrong and now he obviously wants some compensation from PSA? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Sounds to me he's just out to get PSA.

Remember guys: It's a Wonderful Life!

z2345

What is to prevent every dishonest collector in the world to claim that additional cards were in the packages that they have sent to grading companies?

I can see the following scenario unfold time and time again:

Scammer: "Ummm...I had a NM-MT 1952 Topps Mantle in the box, but you only sent back my refractors."

PSA: "Every card on the invoice was sent back to you."

Scammer: "Ummm...Yes. But there was another invoice in the box. You owe me $30,000."

PSA: "Do you have any proof that this card was in the box?"

Scammer: "You mean like an invoice or insurance? Ummm....No"

PSA: "Then how are we to confirm that your Mantle card was sent?"

Scammer: "That's your problem. Send me a check for $30,000 or I am calling the NY Times and the Washington Post."

Virtualizard

Sorry, my previous post was a little OT, but I hope it was informative to some who may not otherwise be aware of the best/cheapest/safest/etc. way to ship valuables through the USPS.

Todd,

You are correct. Assuming that the facts are as stated over the past few months, the shipping method is irrelevant. Through all public information relating to this specific case thus far, the package was received, intact, by PSA. Even if it was shipped insured, registered or otherwise, the USPS would have no liability for a claim in this matter.

Taking it all into account, it's a shame that someone (whether it be McKee or PSA or both) has to end up on the short end of the stick. I can sympathize, and at the same time, berate both parties involved.

JEB.

koby

<< <i>Finally the article does not mention that McKee not long ago had a different insurance claim for lost cards with the National Sportscards Convention. The claim against the National was later determinined to be meritless and McKee received no compensation. >>



Does anyone know what happened at the National?

Tipem

JEB,

Has PSAtan finally converted you I will do some research as to the cost of shipping a $6,000 package priority vs registered and respond tomorrow.

In the meantime,What's up with your photography trip?

Todd,

While I agree that it seems that PSA needs to examine their receiving procedures,I don't see them paying this claim as it would open up the flood gates for every shyster out there.

I would like to point out that I never referred to the sender as anything at all(moron).I stand by my comment that anyone that sends a high dollar card without insurance through any carrier is(I repeat)an IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!

Vargha

Vic . . . I'm a bonehead. I meant to say "Registered". I know that "Certified" refers to a tracking procedure that costs extra monety and can also have a return receipt that is signed by the receiver.

Also, JEB is correct. at about $800-900 of insurance on most packages, Registered actually becomes a cheaper way to send things.

Tipem

David,

Moron in a previous thread,Bonehead in this one.If you are going to stereotype yourself,I would do it in a little better light for yourself.


Vic


PS,

I still have faith in you as a reliable poster

Vargha

I think that my assessments have been fair.

Tipem

calleocho

if i had a $ 6000 card i would just take it to a show , pay 50 bucks and get it done the same day.

given the PSA has graded nearly 7 million cards and many of them far more valuable than this one and also i have never heard of anyone else having this problem before...i would guess that something happenned to his card ..but not what he thinks happenned.

BTW ..i sent my cards regular mail and they got there fine

Vargha

I had a similar problem where somebody trimmed some of my cards at the Post Office and then stuck them back in the package before delivering them to PSA.

Tipem

David,


It's 5:00 am here on the east coast and that started my day with a big laugh. TOO!!!!!!

Thanks,
Vic

curmudgeon

z2345

<<What is to prevent every dishonest collector in the world to claim that additional cards were in the packages that they have sent to grading companies?>>

Gee, I don't know, how about:

1. Stating a policy that invoices may not be combined in one package, rather than specifically stating that they can.
2. Videotaping the receiving process. Banks and other merchants use video cams, sometimes 24/7. Don't tell me the technology isn't there or it's too expensive.
3. Don't tell the public that their cards are treated with the utmost security and care, hinting if not stating that the receiving procedure is videotaped, when in fact that isn't true. Tell 'em that they ship at their own risk, oh, oops, that doesn't sound good from a perception or marketing standpoint, so just lead them to believe that that's the case. Incidentally, where's that detailed video explaining the process that we were all told some time ago would be coming?

In my view, this is all a matter of risk assessment--who should bear it and why. The insurance issues have been beaten to death, and are irrelevant to this issue. If PSA had any, some or all of the above steps in place, the matter would be far more under control, and this "scammer's heaven" paranoia that many of you hold would not exist. The question is who should pay for the McKee problem. IF you conclude that he is lying, then he should lose, although as I mentioned before, he sure bungled it if he was really out to get PSA (and why a $6000 Magie card-- why not claim a Mantle or two or some lesser cards, cards that he would plausibly own, instead of a rare jewel that 1) he would have to prove he owned, and 2) he could never show again, for fear of being unveiled as a fraud). If you conclude that he is telling the truth, then I submit that he was not negligent, for his actions were reasonable in light of what he was led to believe were PSA's policies. Again the insurance issues are irrelevant-insert any shipping and insurance facts you want and you still have the same outcome.

My feeling is PSA will continue to lag or ignore this issue until required to pay. As far as I know, they have not changed their policies since this whole problem came up; if true, that is business stupidity or arrogance.

packCollector

well I just sent in a package today with 2 submissions in the box, everyone cross there fingers for me. by the way I sent registered and clearly labeled the bubble wrapped stacks of cards with the submission number.

by the way, someone mentioned the priority boxes, what I have found that a simple piece of paper tape across the back and sides eliminates the possibility of tampering

itsawonderfullife

Yikes! I meant to mentioned that earlier packCollector, but you are correct, you should tape up the sides of the Priority boxes with the same type of tape used for registered mail.

Again, I can not stress enough that Priorty Boxes as issued are a serious risk for tampering and more than likely, this is how the card turned up missing: it was stolen by a postal employee.

z2345

<< <i>If you conclude that he is telling the truth, then I submit that he was not negligent, for his actions were reasonable in light of what he was led to believe were PSA's policies. >>



How does anyone know one way or another whether McKee is telling the truth? It looks like what it boils down to is a "he said, she said" argument. That is, unless PSA or McKee has some kind of evidence to support what they are saying.

PSA unfortunately does not have a video of the package being processed. PSA however has a track record also. That track record is the million of cards the have been submitted over the years and the record of payment for verifiable damaged or lost cards.

Does McKee have a verifiable loss?Does McKee have anything to corroberate his story?

Let's see......no invoice, no insurance, no witnesses. Plus a history of making claims. Do you really believe that is going to be convincing?

curmudgeon

You know z2345,

I've gone down this road before with you--it's clear to me that you can't get both synapses to fire in your head. The insurance, the invoice, all the "proof" you want is freaking immaterial.

Let me get this straight--had he sent just as you say, insured it just as you say, kept a copy of a printed invoice that he filled out (although he could easily destroy or never send in the original) then you'd believe him, right? He'd have a great case, right? PSA might, just might have screwed up, right? DON"T YOU GET IT- THAT WOULD PROVE NOTHING.

No, instead he makes up this tall tale where he does none of these things, about a card of which fewer than 20 examples exist, so that he can get ripped by folks on chat boards. Yeah, that makes sense. Now, he's like the priest who calls in sick on Sunday to play golf and then gets a hole in one while playing alone--the joy is lost because he can't tell anyone. He owns one of the scarcest cards in the hobby but he can't show it or tell anyone because then its clear he's a liar and a scammer, trying to rip off PSA. Sheer genius.

McKee does have witnesses that he owned the Magie. He had a buyer for it. He says he sent it. What should he do--take it raw to the post office, then videotape himself boxing it up and handing it to the postal carrier? Would that do it for you? Seems like that anything short of that is insufficent. If it is fine--let that be PSA's policy--we win unless you can show it on videotape. You bear the risk--submitter beware.


As for your remark about a prior claim, it seems you know as much about that as you do PSA policies (where you say they prohibit multiple invoices in one box). Go to the Net54 boards if you want to know what happened there. Or, continue to show your idiocy here, I don't care.

z2345

No need to get so worked up over this. If you believe him, that's fine. If you think that it is reasonable to send a $6000 package without insurance, that's ok with me too.

Personally, I think that it is unreasonable to send $6000 packages through the mail without any inusrance. If you disagree, so be it.

Vargha

You're all wrong!


(I just wanted to say that. There, I feel better now.)

packCollector

I have left his one alone since there is rally no way to tell what is going on and nobody except mckee will really ever know the truth. personnally if i owned a card with fewer than 20 examples known, it would be distinguished by more 2 pieces of cardboard in a box with another submission and there is no way I would send it out with the same mailman that reads my dirty magazines before he puts it in my mailbox without some kind of security.

mrc32

<<You're all wrong!


(I just wanted to say that. There, I feel better now.) >>

Vargha- Now we all know how you made 10,000 posts

Vargha

You have a porn problem? I think you may have hit upon something here. Wrap each card in a nudie photo so it is sure to be looked at.

Vargha

Vargha- Now we all know how you made 10,000 posts

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

z2345

<< <i>McKee does have witnesses that he owned the Magie. He had a buyer for it. He says he sent it. >>




I was going to let this one drop, but your comment is just too funny. What the f*** does this have to do with anything???? He owned the Magie......SO WHAT???? How does this prove that he has sent this to PSA??? How does this prove that PSA lost his card???

Todd- You are such an idiot. What do you do for a living? I can't believe that you ramble on and on, without saying a damn thing. Just because you believe the McKee, does not mean everyone is obligated to have the same blind faith. You find no significance in the fact that he did not insure his $6000 package? You are as big an idiot as McKee. You deserve one another.

curmudgeon

Thank you for the post

You continue to amaze me with your stupidity. Please keep posting. In the meantime, ask the 10 year old down the street to explain some concepts of logic and deductive reasoning to you, preferably in monosyllables so that you might understand.

Were you dropped on your head as a child?

Its amazing to me that while no one else in this thread has any trouble understanding what I post, you continue to function at a lower primate level. Forget understanding what legal concepts would apply and the relevant burden of proof and issues of admissibility and circumstantial evidence-- it is clear that even when the dots are spaced EXTREMELY close together you have trouble connecting them.

What difference does it make that he owned the card, had a buyer (i.e. witness) and would testify that he sent it?? Were you on the OJ jury??

It is I who ramble on without saying a thing? Have you read your own posts, er, have someone read to you your posts? Better yet, keep chanting PSA, PSA, PSA, and don't forget to wear your nametag, so people will know where to drop you off when they find you lost again.

Virtualizard

Todd,

I'll try to help.


Option 1:

McKee sent card to PSA. Something happened to card. PSA did not receive card. McKee is upset. PSA is upset. No winner, only losers. Insurance not an issue.

Option 2:

McKee did not send card to PSA in a scam attempt. Submission form also did not arrive (what a coincidence). Super rare card is claimed to have been "lost" by PSA. McKee wants $ and attempts to sell card that he still has. Card turns up and McKee is busted. This is just stupid. I can't believe anyone would try to pull off such a ridiculous scam.

JEB.

curmudgeon

Jeb,

Sorry to belabor the issue--really I am. This thread looks so much like the one of a few months ago with little or nothing changed. I realized when I was late this afternoon picking up my daughter from school that it is a monumental waste of my time to continue posting the subject when people have already formed their opinions. I don't even know McKee, and its surely not my battle--I only wanted to point out how it could happen and that PSA apparently refuses to change.

I'm done with this topic (the crowd roars). If mental giant z2345 wants to carry on with it, fine.

Todd

z2345

Todd-

I have yet to read any post from you as far as the kind of evidence McKee will be presenting. Where is the proof that you find so convincing? Before you go on with your insults, do you see anyone else as easily fooled as yourself???

Perhaps you enjoy playing the devil's advocate, but at least be logical when you debate. It's a little tiring to read your argument which boils down to: "No one is stupid enough to make such a wild claim, so PSA must have lost it." And when you discover that your arguments are full of holes, you resort to name calling and insults. That is how you debate???

z2345

Virtualizard

Todd,

You are correct. I don't know why I've wasted my time with this when it was hammered to death previously.

I don't know McKee either, and I don't think I've posted anything to suggest a bias towards either party involved - although I do believe a scam attempt of this magnitude would be idiotic at best.

I'm done with this thread as well.

JEB.

z2345

You are wrong and I am glad to see that you have conceded that you (and Mckee) cannot win this battle.

Good luck with your legal career. Hopefully you have learned valuable lessons about your horrible temper, your poor debating skills, and your inability to draw logical conclusions the next time you give advise to a client.

mikeschmidt

Dan's a good guy.

PSA is overall a good company.

Something bad happened. It seems apparent to me that neither entity acted maliciously to the deteriment of the other. Similarly, it seems like both parties may have done some things differently in retrospect. Will we ever know the truth? No. Will this situation persuade many collectors to change their habits or preferences? In and of itself -- probably not.

Hopefully the card will turn up again sometime. The good thing about a card like Magie is that it is sufficiently rare that the detailed scan that Dan posseses is sufficient enough to identify the card again should it ever reach the public marketplace.

MS

Buckwheat

The problem that I have with all of this is tht I can't think of any explanation that people have offered that makes sense.

McKee has written on the network 54 board that he is sure that someone at PSA stole it. That also makes no sense. Who would steal such a rare card? How would you sell it without getting busted?

It makes no sense that it would be thrown out. How could a card attached to cardboard with an invoice be discarded?


To tell you the truth, the only (un)reasonable explanation that I can come up with is that McKee set out to discredit PSA. But even that doesn't seem too plausible.

I do have to say though, that from Joe Orlando's standpoint, I don't see where he had much choice. He has no evidence that the card was ever in the box when it arrived at PSA.

As far as someone's statement that insurance wouldn't make any difference-- I would think that if it was insured for $6000, there would be a reasonable claim against the Post Office, since PSA would certify that the card did not arrive in the package, even thought the package was not damaged. Vic--- Any thoughts on this?

As far as the claim at the Nationals--Is this where his father reported a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars of cards?

Tipem

When an insured package is delivered and there is obvious evidence of damage or the package is torn,it is the responsibility of the signee to have that notated on the package.While that procedure is not mandatory,I would recommend that this is done if anyone receives a damaged package.Most post offices have a stamp that is used to mark a damaged package.If the package arrived intact and is signed for,the post office has fulfilled their obligation.I would say that even insurance would be of no use in a situation such as this.The post office delivered the package intact as far as I can surmise.Even if PSA was to certify that the card was not in the package,Is there any way for them to be totally sure that it was not stolen at their facility?

PSA is going to have to revamp their receiving procedures to include video and should probably include audio as well in order to prevent this situation from occuring again.I can conceivably see this scenario occuring again and again without changes.There is just no way for either party to be 100% sure that the other party is honest. The only way for this situation to be resolved in my opinion is for PSA to negotiate a compromise payment and chalk it up to a money saving lesson and to use this information to their advantage to do as I stated at the start of this paragraph.I would have the sender provide a receipt as to the purchase of this card,signed and notarized by the origional owner of this card.While this is not proof positive that this card ever did exist in the sellers possession,it is the only solution that I see.PSA should just write this one off as a flaw in their receiving methods and get positive press out of this.

Vic