Another very interesting topic on sgc boards
Davalillo
Posts: 1,846 ✭✭
On a recent post, I said I thought that there was mounting evidence that more suspicious cards were getting into psa holders.
Here is a post started by a ex-PSA vintage card collector who is selling his collection and going over to sgc. I highlight this because I think psa has to become better in its grading. Lot of interesting comments.
It is entitled "Apparent SGC 84 Crossover to PSA 9--Oh Doctor! by Tiger.
Do not know how to do links but www.sgccard.com will get you there.
Davalillo
Here is a post started by a ex-PSA vintage card collector who is selling his collection and going over to sgc. I highlight this because I think psa has to become better in its grading. Lot of interesting comments.
It is entitled "Apparent SGC 84 Crossover to PSA 9--Oh Doctor! by Tiger.
Do not know how to do links but www.sgccard.com will get you there.
Davalillo
0
Comments
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
The thread can be found at the following link:
Click here
I think it is a very intriguing issue. There are two types of people that seem to be opining: those with bonafide strong arguments supporting their beliefs, and those with personal agendas that are trying to seek vengance against those with whom they do not agree. I think it would be very hard for any hobby outsider to make any truly qualitative assessment based on this information. It is amazing that we hear such strong sentiments from some that have been accused themselves of altering cards (or submitting altered cards for grading....) in the past. On the same token, we hear from those whose inside information and research seems to be so strong and qualitative that it cannot be denied.
One point of clarification that must be made, specifically in point with Tony: Does Tony believe that a) PSA simply has more lenient grading criteria for Red Man cards, or that PSA affords special preference to certain dealers or b) does Tony believe that Red Man cards have been altered and graded higher by PSA after the alterations. I think it is a very important clarification that is being lost in the other argument. The main assertion of the piece seems to be that PSA is grading altered cards. Now, I certainly agree that PSA is doing bad things in either scenario a) or scenario b), but one seems much more egregious to me than the other. Goodness knows that I have handled numerous overgraded Mike Schmidt cards, graded by EVERY major grading company.
Finally, I think it seems very difficult to make blanket assertions regarding PSA on the basis of internet scans . Taking scans from Ebay and making any clarification or judgment based on them seems to be a very slippery slope to me. When those very scans are taken to compare cards sold by different people, in different holders, concerns me in general. The main allegation seems to be that a SGC 86 got into a PSA 8 holder, with the thought that it was altered. Frankly, this alone seems to be somewhat unbalanced to me. I have PSA 8 cards that I cracked out and got into SGC 92 (and even 96 more than once) holders -- and I have SGC 92 cards that I have cracked out and gotten into PSA 9 holders. Again, my basis for judgment is primarily Mike Schmidt -- but I have heard similar stories from numerous collectors swinging both ways of the pendulum.
Heck -- I can say FLAT OUT, that it is very easy to digitally alter an image that is posted on Ebay. I have (unfortunately) purchased from numerous sellers on Ebay who do this -- whether it is filling in a break in a card's edge, or a "strengthening" of a corner by adding one or two pixels of the rest of the edge. It is not hard to do -- and it can very easily alter the overall appearance of the card. Without seeing actual cards -- or having them in the same place -- and without a proven track record of one seller purchasing a card at certain grade and then turning around and selling the card at another grade -- I think we are left with imperfect information.
Has PSA done some things wrong? Absolutely. Is there a current problem with their grading process? Possibly. Do we have any verifiable proof on the basis of the SGC message board discussion? Absolutely not. There is imperfect information -- and if you cannot positively rule out digital manipulation, I find it a very slippery slope to just go ahead and blanket accuse PSA of holdering a trimmed card in this particular instance.
My $0.02
<< <i>Does Tony believe that a) PSA simply has more lenient grading criteria for Red Man cards, or that PSA affords special preference to certain dealers >>
Marc,
I'll go with this one.
aconte
<< <i>
<< <i>Does Tony believe that a) PSA simply has more lenient grading criteria for Red Man cards, or that PSA affords special preference to certain dealers >>
Marc,
I'll go with this one.
aconte >>
Aconte: That's what I thought. I certainly concur that that is a VERY bad thing -- and your evidence on this is more compelling than many other assertions I have seen made throughout numerous forums. I am just a tad afraid that some are going to read the other forum and assume that you had thought that altered cards were finding there way into high-grade PSA holders, which does not seem the case. At least with the above, an astute buyer should be able to look at the card and tell it is overgraded -- as opposed to a trimmed card that actually looks like it would be MINT 9, but for the trim.
MS
An excellent post. Is it the same card in both scans? I dunno. Either way, I don't think there's any compelling evidence to suggest that the card was altered.
I don't know why people can't understand that the grade assigned to a card is nothing more than the OPINION (or collective opinion) of one or more graders. And, as we all know, OPINIONS can change. Hell, I have no doubt that I could send 100 cards into PSA (or SGC, or any other grading company), then crack them out and resubmit them, and get back a radically different set of grades-- even if both batches were graded by the same guy.
It's not insane that this card could move from one holder to another (although it's obviously a problem if it was altered). What IS insane is that most collectors pay 3-10x more for cards in '9' holders as opposed to an '8' holders, even if the differences between the the cards assigned these grade are often indistinguishable.
Over and out,
Toe
if PSA were for any reason go down ...it would not make SGC any stronger...and it might kill the whole graded market as a whole.
MW thinks SGC is PSA's main competion ..he is wrong ..BGS is the one that has taken a big cut from PSA.
even if PSA ceased to exist SGC would still be behind GAI and BGS.
also ..who is tiger? another nameless instigator
the sgc boards are the most one sided debates you will ever see.
Groucho Marx
Paranoia :
A mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions,
often with an otherwise relatively intact personality.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Exactly my diagnosis for you and Dr. Toe is never wrong. Did you increase your meds as I had suggested?
I sent you a PM but I never heard back from you. Please page me or call my office for an appointment. I do not want to place you on another 72 hour hold.
I am not a sgc disciple, I am a huge customer of psa and continue to build sets and submit through them.....but
1)There are problems with psa that I would like to see fixed and I think the most important of which is the grading issue.....to think that there is not a problem here is just putting your head in the sand.
2)Should the problem increase, psa has a third party grader becomes more and more suspect.
I want psa to once again become the most reliable card grader in the business--a status I believe that they have lost.
I do post on sgc boards--lot of knowledgeable people there--but so do Marc, Aconte and others much more often than me.
Davalillo
my two cents as a graphics arts teacher
Vintage Baseball Cards
Sales and Ebay Consignment Service
email
Lloyd_Taylor_Vintage_Cards -- on Ebay
Smelly
If I told people my card was graded lower because it has a hickey I think people would try to register me as one of those sex offenders.
I'll stick with the words "print spot". But thanks for the details on printing. It's good to know.
1. Services offered by PSA, SGC, BGS, or whoever are a thirs party service based on the observations of one person at a particular time. One person may see something one way and one another and both make honest assesments of the card they are looking at. Much like everything else in life this is not an exact science. I know I am missing the background on this but does BMW think that either company could have a card sent to it and have different people give the same grade everytime?
2. It seems like SOME (not all) people like to engage in what is not more than name calling with others. Some have a forum where more may read what they say and actually believe it. Has anyone ever been given a court order by any grading company to stop in regards to saying cards are purposely graded that are trimmed, altered, etc. when they have no actual proof?
3. Lastly, if anyone has ever had any actual proof, I would think this would be some sort of a crime. Has anyone ever tried to have charges filed against any grading company?
Sorry for the long rant but threads like this interest me for whatever sick reason. Now, on to the important things:
I am currently collecting the T213 cards from the Coupon Cigarettes Set. If anyone has any I would be interested in purchasing them. Drop me an email with a scan. I will also be attending the Sun Times show for the first time in November. How is that show typically? Lots of vintage, modern, memorabilia?
Thanks all,
Paul
This charade is inexcusable. Wentz doesn't deserve a dime of your business and no one should give Sportscard 30 day Guaranty their business for supporting this shmendrek.
As for PSA, I'm sure over time a very low percentage of altered cards have gotten past them, as I'm sure they have with ALL grading companies including Sportscard 30day Guaranty and probably a lot more by Sportscard 30 day Guaranty on a per capita basis.
Using the Cert Verification feature, here's one that didn't get past PSA and guess who owns the next card that was graded?
08057935 1933 GOUDEY LOU GEHRIG Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
08057936 N172 OLD JUDGE KING KELLY PSA 9
It appears that MW1 never understood the old platitude of "people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing rocks".
Here's another little gem for all of you. One of the biggest cover-ups in the hobby was that Mike Wentz was arrested at one of the recent National Conventions for getting into a fight with a customer. Quite honestly, the fighting thing is pretty boorish behavior for someone his age, but to me, the bigger scandal is why there was a fight in the first place? It takes a very disgruntled customer to resort to fisticuffs over a bad sale. I've heard why there was a fight from credible people, and those allegations are relevant to this discussion, but they can't be 100% confirmed, so I won't comment on them now, but those questions do need to be answered for the public to know!
Looking through the SC30dayG website, I could't find a Cert Verification feature. That's a shame, but because I'd love to see a more recent list of BMW's grading results and likewise, I'd just love to see PSA release their grading records of BMW Sportscards from years past just to see how many other cards got kicked back.
It's really a shame someone would try to undermind the entire hobby for their own selfish gain. What this putz doesn't realize that these games will drive a lot more people out the hobby that to SC30dayG.
But remember my friends: It's a wonderful life!
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
<< <i>
Using the Cert Verification feature, here's one that didn't get past PSA and guess who owns the next card that was graded?
08057935 1933 GOUDEY LOU GEHRIG Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
08057936 N172 OLD JUDGE KING KELLY PSA 9
It appears that MW1 never understood the old platitude of "people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing rocks".
Here's another little gem for all of you. One of the biggest cover-ups in the hobby was that Mike Wentz was arrested at one of the recent National Conventions for getting into a fight with a customer. Quite honestly, the fighting thing is pretty boorish behavior for someone his age, but to me, the bigger scandal is why there was a fight in the first place? It takes a very disgruntled customer to resort to fisticuffs over a bad sale. I've heard why there was a fight from credible people, and those allegations are relevant to this discussion, but they can't be 100% confirmed, so I won't comment on them now, but those questions do need to be answered for the public to know!
Looking through the SC30dayG website, I could't find a Cert Verification feature. That's a shame, but because I'd love to see a more recent list of BMW's grading results and likewise, I'd just love to see PSA release their grading records of BMW Sportscards from years past just to see how many other cards got kicked back.
It's really a shame someone would try to undermind the entire hobby for their own selfish gain. What this putz doesn't realize that these games will drive a lot more people out the hobby that to SC30dayG. >>
GREAT POST!!!
<< <i>He could stop there either, disillusioned is Wentz too. >>
Mistake #1
A great post indeed.
aconte
Disillusioned = JRinks
John
I think the two Roses may be different cards. In one post, MW produces blowups that show the same print marks on both cards. In one of the blowups, there is a large mark that appears on one of the cards but not the other. The centering seems the be the same, but it's hard to be sure that they are the same card.
The SGC board is a funny place.
bruce
Website: http://www.brucemo.com
Email: brucemo@seanet.com
<< <i>Disillusioned = JRinks
John >>
You are correct!
I went into hibernation on this board after receiving the card I talk about on the SGC Board. It's not this board's fault, but I was just disillusioned with PSA and card grading in general. I still am, but now I feel I can at least talk about it.
When I scanned the card last night it was the first time I looked at it since the day it arrived in the mail, and it looks even worse now. I would really like to know what goes on in that grading room so I can understand how such a travesty can pass through so many hands and nobody noticing it along the way.
How do you figure? This last post has 78 posts in 3 days and there are others as well. Plus if you are interested in serious matters concerning vintage cards no question quality is higher--where else could you get Wentz, Marc Schoenen, Greg(Bottom of the Ninth), Aconte and Va Yank on the same board.
Marc is no doubt the most knowledgeable vintage card guy that posts here and he and Michael Wentz are having some classic exchanges. Greg was right up there as anyone here being objective would tell you but he was tossed from here as well.
Each has their place--this is more for light discussions of semi-vintage and modern cards and for humor.....
Other than the obvious fact that cardcatt bought a SGC 84 and is selling a PSA 9 ... what about the card leads you to believe that it is the same card. What about the card was doctored in your opinion? (or anyone's opinion for that matter)
<< <i>Jrinck,
Other than the obvious fact that cardcatt bought a SGC 84 and is selling a PSA 9 ... what about the card leads you to believe that it is the same card. What about the card was doctored in your opinion? (or anyone's opinion for that matter) >>
I don't believe I actually opined about this Lasorda card. My only problem was with a PSA 7 card that I bought that shouldn't be anywhere near a 7.
From the two scans of the Lasorda, though, I can only say they LOOK the same, but if I were on a jury that was deciding if these two cards really were the same, then I'd have to vote "nay". It's way too hard to judge the similarity of two cards from just a scan.
The only way to give some credence, though, is to find what remains of that SGC slab. Then that would prove that at least that particular card was removed from it's holder. Still, it still proves nothing, but you can disprove a whole bunch if that card surfaces at some point INTACT in that SGC holder, and is placed side-by-side with the PSA card.
Yeah, over 70 post and the majority from 4 guys.
What really stinks about it all is the fact that I honestly want to find a reason to like SGC, but keep coming up with none. PSA ticks me off to no end lately, BGS is a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen, and GAI can't stop saying no (Want us to grade Rookie Review "cards"? Sure! Just show us the money!) to anyone. I'd love to see someone sink some money into SGC for advertising and staff, come up with a workable 3 year business plan for market domination, and blow everyone out of the water, but I don't see that happening. I felt bad walking by their booth at the National. They are the Vanilla of card grading...
<< <i>schrist,
How do you figure? This last post has 78 posts in 3 days and there are others as well. Plus if you are interested in serious matters concerning vintage cards no question quality is higher--where else could you get Wentz, Marc Schoenen, Greg(Bottom of the Ninth), Aconte and Va Yank on the same board.
Marc is no doubt the most knowledgeable vintage card guy that posts here and he and Michael Wentz are having some classic exchanges. Greg was right up there as anyone here being objective would tell you but he was tossed from here as well.
Each has their place--this is more for light discussions of semi-vintage and modern cards and for humor..... >>
I agree with about everything you said. Like David Vargha just said sgc is an excellent grading company and certainly better on pre-war cards. I too am ticked off to no end at psa but just have too much sunk into psa and am trying (with absolutely zero success) to get psa to be a better company. The president tells you he wants your imput but he really isn't listening. Certainly the board members here can answer most questions about post-1960 sets and with a couple of notable exceptions they are a good crew. However, as a group they do not have the knowledge of vintage cards that exists on the sgc boards now that Marc and Greg are posting regularly there.
I will say that recent efforts to have discussions about true vintage sets like 1887 Old Judge and T206 are very encouraging and some great info has come out of these.
Davalillo
How many altered cards are currently in PSA holders? That's the real question. The higher the number, the more of a problem this is. So, given the absence of a PSA-Graded Trimmed Card Pop Report, the best analogy I could come up with was counterfeiting bills. According to this seemingly reliable article, fake bills accounted for about $40 million USD of the $650 billion USD in circulation last year. That's about 0.06% of the total money in circulation.
So how many cards has PSA graded? Beats me. They graded their 1 millionth card over 4 years ago, so a fairly conservative estimate might be 5 million graded cards to date (it could easily be double that - if anyone knows for sure, I'd love to know). Applying the counterfeit bill rate to that number implies just over 3,000 altered PSA-graded cards. It could be more, it could be less - the point is that the existence of a very small percentage of altered cards does not instantly lower the value of the vast majority of legit cards. To push the analogy further, are you going to exchange of all your bills for coins just because some fake $20 bills exist?
In the end, I think people's reactions should be tempered by the severity of the problem. I fail to see why a small number of "problem" cards should cause me to sell off my PSA card collection in knee-jerk fashion. The rare art market hasn't crashed when fakes have been found, so why should this one?
Robert
P.S. If there is a "major" problem at PSA, it's not the grading of altered cards. Rather, it's the inconsistent application of grading standards across graders. But that's where your own preferences (holder buyers vs. card buyers), as well as your own scrutiny, come into play. And oftentimes, prices realized reflect the strength of the grade ...
<< <i> However, as a group they do not have the knowledge of vintage cards that exists on the sgc boards now that Marc and Greg are posting regularly there.
I will say that recent efforts to have discussions about true vintage sets like 1887 Old Judge and T206 are very encouraging and some great info has come out of these.
Davalillo >>
Jim:
Just want to point out that over on the SGC boards I am rated by other users as having only "one star" -- which means that the educated people on those boards have essentially rated me as "bottom of the barrel". I'm as yet undecided whether or not to be proud of this rating. So, though I thank you for your consistent nice words, they are clearly not shared by all of your fellow collectors.
MS
I would be confident that that is Michael Wentz's rating of you and noone elses.
I also would not call them my fellow collectors--an interesting bunch and I enjoy reading what Greg and Michael have to say but I still am a psa collector.
It shows high strength of character to say what you believe knowing that Michael Wentz is going to take shots at you...and not feel like you have to respond to every one of his allegations.
How is Harvard Business School--I get to Boston 2-3 times a year and my son goes to Dartmouth so maybe I can buy you lunch or dinner some time.
Jim
That is all.
<< <i>Using the Cert Verification feature, here's one that didn't get past PSA and guess who owns the next card that was graded?
08057935 1933 GOUDEY LOU GEHRIG Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
08057936 N172 OLD JUDGE KING KELLY PSA 9
It appears that MW1 never understood the old platitude of "people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing rocks".
>>
I wonder how the spin-doctor will explain this one.
<< <i>
How is Harvard Business School--I get to Boston 2-3 times a year and my son goes to Dartmouth so maybe I can buy you lunch or dinner some time.
Jim >>
Jim -- it would be great to get together sometime. The only time I'm generally not here is weekends (you may recall that my wife and I have taken the ridiculous option to live in separate cities while she is in the 3rd trimester of our first pregnancy...). I have a few cards from one of my favorites stashed away for you -- so it would make it worth your trip ;-)
As for school -- everything is going great. The only "negative" is that there are too many good things to do with not enough time to do it. I've sat with the CFO of Medtronic, talked with HBS recruiting alums from Amazon.com, spoke with the CEO of Bain, sat on a lecture by Prince Moullay of Monaco discuss Middle East Policy, and had career discussions with the gentleman who invented the 360 degree feedback process. Life is a blast -- I'm just trying to figure out my path, and balance all that time and (lack of) sleep will allow.
Cheers-
MS
E-mail me your phone number(jdc122@aol.com). Also let me know if you are interested in doing a summer intern program in investment banking or research and I will try to help.
Jim
Don't let the siren song of Wall Street (or State Street in Boston) get to you!! I was a securities analyst and successful institutional investor for 20 years (5-star Morningstar rating in my previous life, thank you very much), and except for the money part, it ain't all its cracked up to be. If you don't mind living on a shoestring, do something really challenging, like becoming a pilot - I can teach you if interested!! Then again, it's probably too late, since that pesky money thing comes in handy when you have a family and a plastic addiction to feed.....
If you are ever in the DC area, I can give you a tour of my game used baseball collection, including an autographed game-used Mike Schmidt batting helmet, and the bat Mike used to hit RBI #100 and career HR's 417, 418, and 419 in 1984... I like plastic, but I like the stuff that's actually been there even more.
Steve
Most of the analysts/portfolio managers I know on Wall St. love it and couldn't imagine doing anything else.
To each his own but its my view that job satisfaction among these professions is high.
<< <i>Just want to point out that over on the SGC boards I am rated by other users as having only "one star" -- which means that the educated people on those boards have essentially rated me as "bottom of the barrel". >>
MS,
I had no idea until reading your post how to rate someone. I only have two. I'd rate you a
five star. I am quite glad you post on that board. Hopefully, you'll add more too.
aconte
Don't get me wrong, I had a ball and have many great lifelong friends in NYC. I was good at what I did , I loved it, and have always believed that if I were single I would have probably stayed there. I just figured that after a certain point (financially, that is), there were too many other things I wanted to do in life that did not involve a trading desk, an office, and a commute. Family considerations also played a factor in moving from NYC (I worked at T. Rowe for 16 years after leaving NYC) as my wife wanted to be closer to home after her stint as an attorney at Mudge, Rose in the 1980's. We both are in NYC many times a year for fun and couldn't imagine life without The Apple.
Things should be better now. You and I both have 2 stars...
aconte
Here's a theory for all to contemplate.
If I remember correctly,when Beckett first came on to the scene they were ultra tough graders and most people stayed away from them because of that.While I feel PSA is sometimes remiss in their grading consistency,they must be walking a tight rope in order to not alienate their customer base with tough grading.While most collectors are not as astute in their collecting standards and buy the holder not the card,the majority of the posters on this board do just the opposite.Would the masses go to another grading company if 8's were really tough to pull,9's truly rare,and 10's almost non-existant.I think so!!
I do wish that the SGC and MW topic was ignored on this board as it will never change and MW will always be a negative voice in the hobby.It is obvious that as long as MW sells PSA cards,his tirades will be viewed with a certain amount of skepticism as someone who does not really practice what he preaches.If he were really as anti-PSA as he states,he would divest himself of all things concerned with PSA.Kind of interesting,huh?
Vic
<< <i>MS,
I had no idea until reading your post how to rate someone. I only have two. I'd rate you a
five star. I am quite glad you post on that board. Hopefully, you'll add more too.
aconte >>
Aconte,
Make sure you buy some good kneepads for all the time you spend on your knees.
Koby