I echo the sentiment on this board. PSA should release a list of the certification numbers of EVERY card submitted by WIWAG. That would give us a chance to go through our collections and have suspicious cards checked. Do it now PSA and raise the cloud of suspicion hanging over the hobby!
That is definitely a good idea but it does not rule out submissions under other dealers. It also does not rule out cards that were initially bought by them and resold with inferior cards inside. I am sure that PSA can print out a report, it might be 5 miles long, that will list the grading history from these goons. The next step is that the word must get out to everyone as cards have changed hands, possibly several times.
The next issue is how does PSA deal with the potential onslaught of cards that will come in for "review"? Will collectors send stuff in just for the heck of it without regard to whether or not there is a problem? PSA has never given any direction as to what to look for in order to identify foul play. It is conceivable, although remote, that Bonnie and Clyde did sell legitimate cards during this time through their various avenues.
One step at a time. First we need CU to even acknowledge that there is plenty of unfinished business. Then we can start to ask the following types of questions: How long were these guys perpetrating this crime? What were the specifics of the crime? What are collectors supposed to look for? How many cards were involved? How where they selling the cards? How much money did they gross from this operation? CU has not made any kind of statement since June 2003. Love the silent treatment though. Doesn't it give you that sense of confidence that you want?
By the time every card is located their restitution responsibility will be completed.
Geez.setbuilders have enough trouble trying to locate cards for 500-700 plus sets. Think these guys are going to make the same effort to find (how many cards is it)?Bullsheep.They are going to probably dog the next 2 years.
I agree that it would be ideal to have a list of PSA cards with potential WIWAG problems. However, I don't see how such a list could be compiled accurately, given the myriad sources from which such cards could have been submitted. And to me, an inaccurate list would be worse than no list at all.
Having said that, I believe it is not as big a problem as everyone here seems to think. I used to own a WIWAG-switched card, a 1966 PSA 8 Willie Mays. I bought the card directly from WIWAG in about January 2002. I remembered when I received it that I thought it was a little weak for an 8, but I was too busy to follow up on it at the time. After the scandal broke, I returned it to PSA for review, and they re-cased it into a PSA 7 slab. I received full restitution from WIWAG.
As for the PSA slab- it showed obvious signs of tampering. It was very clear in looking at the slab that it had been tampered with. The bottom edge was cloudy, not clear, and there was a small crack about 1/8" up from the bottom right corner. The slab had been sealed shut, but it was easy to detect the tampering, if you knew to look for it. Prior to the WIWAG scandal, I simply did not look as carefully at the slabs as I shold have. I have since gone through all my PSA cards to look for similar signs of tampering, and have found none. Whenever I purchase new cards, I always carefully examine the slabs for signs of tampering, as well as examine the card to see that it fits the grade. I strongly believe that WIWAG was not able to switch cards without showing some sign of tampering on the slab. I just don't believe it is possible to open a PSA slab without causing some damage to the slab. Therefore, I believe it is up to the collector to carefully inspect every PSA card purchased for signs of tampering, and also inspect the card itself to see if it appears to fit the grade.
Of course it would be great if we knew all the cards that were switched by WIWAG. However, I don't think PSA can be the source for that information. I'm sure WIWAG submitted many cards that were never tampered with. I also purchased one other card directly from WIWAG before the scandal- a 1966 PSA 9 common. I have examined that card very carefully, and I am absolutely certain that it is a legitimate 9. It is also probably true that WIWAG switched some cards that they bought elsewhere, i.e. that they did not submit themselves. So any list of cards submitted by WIWAG would not only include cards that were not tampered with, but would be missing cards that might be tampered with. Such a list would be worthless, or even less than worthless, i.e. dangerously misleading.
Collectors need to take responsibility for their own purchases.
My 2 cents.
Rob deLorimier
Collecting 1971 Topps baseball in PSA 8 or better. 1966 Topps baseball in PSA 8 or better 1929 Kashin R316 in any grade 1966 Batmans -all varieties- PSA 8 or better
<< <i>However, I don't see how such a list could be compiled accurately, given the myriad sources from which such cards could have been submitted. And to me, an inaccurate list would be worse than no list at all. >>
How about a detailed list of the attributes of a tampered slab? The FBI and PSA "caught" these guys, why not share the specifics in order to educate PSA's customers?
<< <i>Collectors need to take responsibility for their own purchases. >>
Agreed. And companies need to take responsibility for the quality of their products and make good faith efforts at customer relations.
Where have you gone Dave Vargha CU turns its lonely eyes to you What's the you say, Mrs Robinson Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
Your post brings up a very important point. There are regulatory agencies in nearly every walk of life. The FDA governs the quality of the food we buy and insures the safety of over-the-counter and prescription drugs. The EPA sets standards for fuel emmissions in automobiles, the disposal of hazardous wastes, and the quality of our water. The FCC regulates interstate and international communications by radio, television, wire, satellite and cable. OSHA works to prevent injuries and protect the health of America's workers. The FAA governs the safety of civil aviation.
How many agencies are there regulating third party grading companies? None. Should this be something that is left totally to the consumer or collector.....especially when cases of fraud are involved? That's a very good question. I'm sure there are many diverse opinions on the subject.
Your post brings up a very important point. There are regulatory agencies in nearly every walk of life. The FDA governs the quality of the food we buy and insures the safety of over-the-counter and prescription drugs. The EPA sets standards for fuel emmissions in automobiles, the disposal of hazardous wastes, and the quality of our water. The FCC regulates interstate and international communications by radio, television, wire, satellite and cable. OSHA works to prevent injuries and protect the health of America's workers. The FAA governs the safety of civil aviation.
How many agencies are there regulating third party grading companies? None. Should this be something that is left totally to the consumer or collector.....especially when cases of fraud are involved? That's a very good question. I'm sure there are many diverse opinions on the subject.
Here's my opinion. Yes, grading companies or any other business including card dealers are subjected to the rules and regulations of the Federal Trade Commission. This includes consumer fraud, misleading advertising and other illegal practices.
Dude, I agree that rob71rgd98's post was very good.
In order for collectors to take responsibility, they need to be fully educated on exactly what to look for. Certainly, I have learned many things from fellow collectors. As rob71rgd98 mentioned, checking for cloudy slabs, cracks, etc is now standard operating procedure.
But is that all?
Is it too much to ask for PSA to publish a list of things to watch out for -- even if the list is a confirmation of the suggestions that collectors have been sharing?
If PSA could share its expertise with the FBI to stop WIWAG, why not share that expertise with us collectors that regularly submit, buy, sell, and collect PSA graded cards?
Such a public announcement seems like a logical next step, if only to stop the endless speculation around the extent of WIWAG's fraud.
Where have you gone Dave Vargha CU turns its lonely eyes to you What's the you say, Mrs Robinson Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
Here's my opinion. Yes, grading companies or any other business including card dealers are subjected to the rules and regulations of the Federal Trade Commission. This includes consumer fraud, misleading advertising and other illegal practices.
That's exactly my point. How many rules and regulations of the FTC do we see being applied to companies like PRO, ASA and NASA? How many consumers who have purchased WIWAG cards have been protected by the FTC? My personal feeling is that as long as the FBI and PSA are involved, there's no general awareness of the problem. How many cards were involved? Through how many channels were they distributed? What are some of the serial numbers? Did WIWAG ever use fresh PSA holders and seal them themselves?
All unanswered questions.....If the FTC really governed the sports card industry, wouldn't they be more fully involved? Will collectors ever know the truth?
Zardoz – That’s true to an extent. The anonymous conspiracy kooks that plague internet message boards would love the public to believe the some grading companies now or in years past, intentionally made backroom deals on inflated grades or intentionally slabbed altered cards. If these allegations are true, then it’s a totally new game and it is consumer fraud. The difficulty is proving that Company X intentionally committed fraud.
You and I live in Texas which has a very strong consumer protection law known as the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act. It's worth reading since collectibles would certainly apply to this law. Read #6 and 7 on the Laundry List. It also states (#8) that it's illegal to disparage the goods, services, or business of another by false or misleading representations of facts.
Great post! On the flipside, I believe there's also a California law that specifically governs sports trading cards:
Business & Professions Code § 21671. Alterations or refurbishments; certificates; violations; penalties
(a) Any sports trading card that is altered or refurbished shall be accompanied by a certificate stating the exact work done to the sports trading card, the date the work was performed, the cost of that work, and the name, phone number, and address of the person who performed the work. (b) Any person or agent thereof, who knowingly sells or trades a sports card in violation of subdivision (a), shall both: (1) Refund to the buyer, the full amount paid for the altered or refurbished sports trading card or the full retail value of any non-monetary consideration received in exchange for the altered or refurbished sports trading card, or both. (2) Be liable to the buyer for a civil penalty not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000) for each violation. Each card sold represents a separate and distinct violation.
Any action on existing statutes anywhere would be nigh on impossible to enforce. It all falls back to "Our Opinion". They off brand boys know this, and as for getting the government involved, God forbid!
It is unfortunate that this industry has absolutely no professional organization with a code of ethics for all to adhere. If the industry was really on the level, there would have been one years ago.
There are more crooks than good guys. A sad fact, but a fact nevertheless.
Would you feel comfortable with a dealer dislaying the Professional Card And Memorabilia Dealer's Assocation" logo on their website and ebay auctions? Would these dealers be willing to pay the dues necessary to maintain such an organization? I ain't holding my breath.
waitiltheytrytobuy -- Thanks for the heads on the California law. It could certainly prove to be useful for me or any collector.
Mr Z -- You are such a cynic! Besides the WIWAG scam, the FBI has gotten involved in our hobby with Operation Bull Pen and Operation Foul Ball. Regarding the "probably" in #7 of the Texas Law, I'm sure they used that word since it was an example.
Comments
You did not have to take him over your knee in public, did you? Yeah you're right, it's more fun that way.
Toe
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
The next issue is how does PSA deal with the potential onslaught of cards that will come in for "review"? Will collectors send stuff in just for the heck of it without regard to whether or not there is a problem? PSA has never given any direction as to what to look for in order to identify foul play. It is conceivable, although remote, that Bonnie and Clyde did sell legitimate cards during this time through their various avenues.
One step at a time. First we need CU to even acknowledge that there is plenty of unfinished business. Then we can start to ask the following types of questions: How long were these guys perpetrating this crime? What were the specifics of the crime? What are collectors supposed to look for? How many cards were involved? How where they selling the cards? How much money did they gross from this operation? CU has not made any kind of statement since June 2003. Love the silent treatment though. Doesn't it give you that sense of confidence that you want?
Geez.setbuilders have enough trouble trying to locate cards for 500-700 plus sets.
Think these guys are going to make the same effort to find (how many cards is it)?Bullsheep.They are going to probably dog the next 2 years.
My Auctions
I agree that it would be ideal to have a list of PSA cards with potential WIWAG problems. However, I don't see how such a list could be compiled accurately, given the myriad sources from which such cards could have been submitted. And to me, an inaccurate list would be worse than no list at all.
Having said that, I believe it is not as big a problem as everyone here seems to think. I used to own a WIWAG-switched card, a 1966 PSA 8 Willie Mays. I bought the card directly from WIWAG in about January 2002. I remembered when I received it that I thought it was a little weak for an 8, but I was too busy to follow up on it at the time. After the scandal broke, I returned it to PSA for review, and they re-cased it into a PSA 7 slab. I received full restitution from WIWAG.
As for the PSA slab- it showed obvious signs of tampering. It was very clear in looking at the slab that it had been tampered with. The bottom edge was cloudy, not clear, and there was a small crack about 1/8" up from the bottom right corner. The slab had been sealed shut, but it was easy to detect the tampering, if you knew to look for it. Prior to the WIWAG scandal, I simply did not look as carefully at the slabs as I shold have. I have since gone through all my PSA cards to look for similar signs of tampering, and have found none. Whenever I purchase new cards, I always carefully examine the slabs for signs of tampering, as well as examine the card to see that it fits the grade. I strongly believe that WIWAG was not able to switch cards without showing some sign of tampering on the slab. I just don't believe it is possible to open a PSA slab without causing some damage to the slab. Therefore, I believe it is up to the collector to carefully inspect every PSA card purchased for signs of tampering, and also inspect the card itself to see if it appears to fit the grade.
Of course it would be great if we knew all the cards that were switched by WIWAG. However, I don't think PSA can be the source for that information. I'm sure WIWAG submitted many cards that were never tampered with. I also purchased one other card directly from WIWAG before the scandal- a 1966 PSA 9 common. I have examined that card very carefully, and I am absolutely certain that it is a legitimate 9. It is also probably true that WIWAG switched some cards that they bought elsewhere, i.e. that they did not submit themselves. So any list of cards submitted by WIWAG would not only include cards that were not tampered with, but would be missing cards that might be tampered with. Such a list would be worthless, or even less than worthless, i.e. dangerously misleading.
Collectors need to take responsibility for their own purchases.
My 2 cents.
Rob deLorimier
1971 Topps baseball in PSA 8 or better.
1966 Topps baseball in PSA 8 or better
1929 Kashin R316 in any grade
1966 Batmans -all varieties- PSA 8 or better
<< <i>However, I don't see how such a list could be compiled accurately, given the myriad sources from which such cards could have been submitted. And to me, an inaccurate list would be worse than no list at all. >>
How about a detailed list of the attributes of a tampered slab? The FBI and PSA "caught" these guys, why not share the specifics in order to educate PSA's customers?
<< <i>Collectors need to take responsibility for their own purchases. >>
Agreed. And companies need to take responsibility for the quality of their products and make good faith efforts at customer relations.
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
Your post brings up a very important point. There are regulatory agencies in nearly every walk of life. The FDA governs the quality of the food we buy and insures the safety of over-the-counter and prescription drugs. The EPA sets standards for fuel emmissions in automobiles, the disposal of hazardous wastes, and the quality of our water. The FCC regulates interstate and international communications by radio, television, wire, satellite and cable. OSHA works to prevent injuries and protect the health of America's workers. The FAA governs the safety of civil aviation.
How many agencies are there regulating third party grading companies? None. Should this be something that is left totally to the consumer or collector.....especially when cases of fraud are involved? That's a very good question. I'm sure there are many diverse opinions on the subject.
How many agencies are there regulating third party grading companies? None. Should this be something that is left totally to the consumer or collector.....especially when cases of fraud are involved? That's a very good question. I'm sure there are many diverse opinions on the subject.
Here's my opinion. Yes, grading companies or any other business including card dealers are subjected to the rules and regulations of the Federal Trade Commission. This includes consumer fraud, misleading advertising and other illegal practices.
In order for collectors to take responsibility, they need to be fully educated on exactly what to look for. Certainly, I have learned many things from fellow collectors. As rob71rgd98 mentioned, checking for cloudy slabs, cracks, etc is now standard operating procedure.
But is that all?
Is it too much to ask for PSA to publish a list of things to watch out for -- even if the list is a confirmation of the suggestions that collectors have been sharing?
If PSA could share its expertise with the FBI to stop WIWAG, why not share that expertise with us collectors that regularly submit, buy, sell, and collect PSA graded cards?
Such a public announcement seems like a logical next step, if only to stop the endless speculation around the extent of WIWAG's fraud.
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
ZAG could state that the most obvious whacked and altered card was legitimate. Good luck on coming after me, it was after all "my opinion".
That's exactly my point. How many rules and regulations of the FTC do we see being applied to companies like PRO, ASA and NASA? How many consumers who have purchased WIWAG cards have been protected by the FTC? My personal feeling is that as long as the FBI and PSA are involved, there's no general awareness of the problem. How many cards were involved? Through how many channels were they distributed? What are some of the serial numbers? Did WIWAG ever use fresh PSA holders and seal them themselves?
All unanswered questions.....If the FTC really governed the sports card industry, wouldn't they be more fully involved? Will collectors ever know the truth?
You and I live in Texas which has a very strong consumer protection law known as the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act. It's worth reading since collectibles would certainly apply to this law. Read #6 and 7 on the Laundry List. It also states (#8) that it's illegal to disparage the goods, services, or business of another by false or misleading representations of facts.
Great post! On the flipside, I believe there's also a California law that specifically governs sports trading cards:
Business & Professions Code § 21671. Alterations or refurbishments; certificates; violations; penalties
(a) Any sports trading card that is altered or refurbished shall be accompanied by a certificate stating the exact work done to the sports trading card, the date the work was performed, the cost of that work, and the name, phone number, and address of the person who performed the work.
(b) Any person or agent thereof, who knowingly sells or trades a sports card in violation of subdivision (a), shall both:
(1) Refund to the buyer, the full amount paid for the altered or refurbished sports trading card or the full retail value of any non-monetary consideration received in exchange for the altered or refurbished sports trading card, or both.
(2) Be liable to the buyer for a civil penalty not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000) for each violation. Each card sold represents a separate and distinct violation.
Any action on existing statutes anywhere would be nigh on impossible to enforce. It all falls back to "Our Opinion". They off brand boys know this, and as for getting the government involved, God forbid!
It is unfortunate that this industry has absolutely no professional organization with a code of ethics for all to adhere. If the industry was really on the level, there would have been one years ago.
There are more crooks than good guys. A sad fact, but a fact nevertheless.
Would you feel comfortable with a dealer dislaying the Professional Card And Memorabilia Dealer's Assocation" logo on their website and ebay auctions? Would these dealers be willing to pay the dues necessary to maintain such an organization? I ain't holding my breath.
Mr Z -- You are such a cynic! Besides the WIWAG scam, the FBI has gotten involved in our hobby with Operation Bull Pen and Operation Foul Ball. Regarding the "probably" in #7 of the Texas Law, I'm sure they used that word since it was an example.